M+ needs back Titanforging

[Loveliest]

Titanforging was detrimental to almost no one, outside of those who were benched in high end progression guilds because another player of the same class was super lucky.

Normal and hc guild only benefited from this, because it would help carry the weaker players. So I am highly for any extra loot or extra boost to the loot.

A high end player is truly not affected by a heroic raider that got lucky even if by some chance they were so lucky they have even better ilvl than them. Outside the principle of "But why should he have better gear", there is actually no problem. None affect the other much. Maybe skew the queues a little.

[TBCCLOL]

Titanforging was detrimental to almost no one.

False. /char

[Loveliest]

I'm not going to go in circles with you. There was a reason why it was removed from the game, and thats because the negatives far outweight the positives of the system. End of story.

It was removed because world first guilds don't want anything to impact them and don't want anything RNG that requires a lot of time. They have to minimize the tim loss.
This is why they start telling ppl that something is bad and it needs to go away. And ppl are super easily manipulated. They don't need many arguments to get against something, a few points can be brought up and if they sound ok then they agree with it. The masses almost never stop to think "But would this change affect me or be good for me?" This is how you get even whining normal and hc raiders who put no effort into anything and get carried by their guild that titanforge should be removed- even if titanforge actually allows their guild to carry them. The absurdity of the masses... even just telling them "but hc raiders should not get mythic loot" is enough for them to yell against a system even if they themselves actually lose out. Ppl love to complain so much, they forget to look at things properly.

[Ealyssa]

lol no. Stacking RNG upon RNG is clearly not what the game needs.

Titanforging was a garbage idea and still is a garbage idea.

[Kaver]

You can make a great reward system for M+ without having to base it on heavy rng. The current valor system is only a very poor attempt.

- - - Updated - - -

It was removed because world first guilds don't want anything to impact them and don't want anything RNG that requires a lot of time. They have to minimize the tim loss.
This is why they start telling ppl that something is bad and it needs to go away. And ppl are super easily manipulated. They don't need many arguments to get against something, a few points can be brought up and if they sound ok then they agree with it. The masses almost never stop to think "But would this change affect me or be good for me?" This is how you get even whining normal and hc raiders who put no effort into anything and get carried by their guild that titanforge should be removed- even if titanforge actually allows their guild to carry them. The absurdity of the masses... even just telling them "but hc raiders should not get mythic loot" is enough for them to yell against a system even if they themselves actually lose out. Ppl love to complain so much, they forget to look at things properly.

This is a lie. I’m a very average player in WoW and like many others I don’t like having my rewards tied to extreme RNG. It has NOTHING to do with world first guilds.

I also don’t like the weakly vault for the same reason. It feels so bad spending 10 hours during a week running dungeons and then still have your reward heavily based on being lucky or unlucky.

I don’t like extreme RNG. It’s my personal preference and it has nothing to do with what top players do.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I like this idea. Titanforging was fun but it was storyline related, I believe. We saved the Titans during the Legion, but still it could be named as something else. It’s always nice to get some additional item level upgrades. I have been always lucky

[TBCCLOL]

Titanforge is the "partecipation token" for LFR champs that are too bad and lazy to play Mythic Raiding or M+ above 10 and so they can get the GIGA ITM LVL Weapon just like a Mythic Raider or a M+ Pusher so they can do better WQ and Pet Battle or farming xmog from Cata Raids.

[Caerrona]

You can make a great reward system for M+ without having to base it on heavy rng. The current valor system is only a very poor attempt.

- - - Updated - - -



This is a lie. I’m a very average player in WoW and like many others I don’t like having my rewards tied to extreme RNG. It has NOTHING to do with world first guilds.

I also don’t like the weakly vault for the same reason. It feels so bad spending 10 hours during a week running dungeons and then still have your reward heavily based on being lucky or unlucky.

I don’t like extreme RNG. It’s my personal preference and it has nothing to do with what top players do.

The vault isn't "extreme" rng. The sole purpose is to "reduce" bad rng if you are a mythic raider, which it does.

If you are not a mythic raider, it is a free highest ilvl piece of gear in the game (15s are free).

Now I'd be fine if they removed the vault and the only way to get 252s is mythic raiding/glad/20s. Then we would see the REAL complaints come in about how after 7 weeks people are still stuck on 7s because they don't get free gear to out gear the content quickly.

[Flaim]

titanforging was bad and was only there to give you a literally unattainable carrot on a stick (or have you ever seen a single player with all slots maxed forging?), which led to mass burnout of the game. with valor upgrades you at least have the player agency. what needs to go is the valor cap, so people can farm to their hearts content.

[Kaver]

The vault isn't "extreme" rng. The sole purpose is to "reduce" bad rng if you are a mythic raider, which it does.

If you are not a mythic raider, it is a free highest ilvl piece of gear in the game (15s are free).

Now I'd be fine if they removed the vault and the only way to get 252s is mythic raiding/glad/20s. Then we would see the REAL complaints come in about how after 7 weeks people are still stuck on 7s because they don't get free gear to out gear the content quickly.

I see it as extreme RNG since your entire weekly progress can go completely unrewarded. You can spend tens of hours running dungeons and end up with no useful reward. That’s not a well designed system.

Even for mythic raiders it feel bad having no agency over the highest dungeon loot. A player can do 10 dungeons every week and still not see e.g. a 252 Ruby for the entire season.

[Biggles Worth]

It's so boring without any chance to get an upgrade ever outside the waiting vault.

I want to play the game to get upgrades, not sit and wait for my weekly welfare loot.

Legion/first half of Bfa were the greatest. Every end of dungeon chest contained a potential big upgrade. Every dungeon was run in anticipation of great loot. Fun times.

Blizzard always listens to the wrong people. Titanforging was the greatest. Loot and M+ are super boring in Shadowlands.

Titanforging is a very lazy game design way to go about getting upgrades in a game. Hard pass.

[Zantera]

I don't know if bringing titanforging back would be any good but I also think the way loot rewards work now makes the weekly vault too overpowered compared to the rest. The fact you can do a +20 key in time and still not get as good of an item as the weekly reward for a +15 feels underwhelming indeed. Why not make it so keys in time over +15 (or higher, I don't care) can drop 252, or at the very least if you hit a certain m+ score it unlocks the option to upgrade with valor to 252.

The weekly vault is better than the weekly chest as you do get some options but anything above 4 m+ (the 2nd slot) feels like a big time waste IMO. Yeah you can do 6 more to get a third option but honestly that's not really worth the effort imo.

[Kaver]

Make a system that rewards players for their effort without basing on extreme RNG. I think that’s what a lot of players want.

[RoKPaNda]

hmm, you should take a deep look at warcraftlogs and analyze there the players. because top 50 by far isnt enough….

I'm not sure what point you think you were making there but in the previous expansion and at the start of this one I was in a top 50 guild. There were quite a few people who didn't run M+. You'll find players in any guild that do run it, but you'll probably find a lot more who just don't bother.

[Alroxas]

Titanforging was the greatest.

Short reply: No.

Longer reply: TF was stupid that any content could proc enough that you could win the lotto of a max TF item from doing the lowest difficult of content. It's degenerative because it gave players the perception that they needed to do EVERY LEVEL OF CONTENT on the small off chance that it could TF up to the max.

Did we not learn from Arcano Crystal back in Legion?

Hell we already see it in SL with Instructor's Divine Bell for certain specs. Could you imagine how much MORE players would grind if that could TF beyond the current cap?

[Raelbo]

Longer reply: TF was stupid that any content could proc enough that you could win the lotto of a max TF item from doing the lowest difficult of content. It's degenerative because it gave players the perception that they needed to do EVERY LEVEL OF CONTENT on the small off chance that it could TF up to the max.

No. The real problem is players making bad choices about how to spend their time and then ironically calling the system stupid for "making" them act in such a way.

Sorry, but anyone who came away with the perception that they were required to do every level of content for a minuscule chance at something have only themselves to blame. The simple fact of the matter is every player has a finite amount of time to spend playing this game, and if you're trying to maximise your effectiveness, there were significantly better things to spend one's time doing than running lower difficulty content for a negligible shot at an upgrade.

The design intent of TF wrt LFR was absolutely not to get everyone running LFR in a desperate effort to win that 1 in a million chance of a meaningful upgrade. It was actually so that people who were happy to do LFR didn't feel that it was something that should be avoided on the basis that there was zero chance of obtaining anything useful. It was about giving players the freedom to choose content based on what they enjoy, rather than on what was dictated, by the game, to be mandatory.

Personally I like that the game people options and allowed us to choose how to spend our time. It was rewarding to those who were smart enough to figure out to optimize their playstyle according to their objectives instead of trying to do everything possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Titanforging was detrimental to almost no one, outside of those who were benched in high end progression guilds because another player of the same class was super lucky.

Even in this case TF wasn't detrimental to anyone. If a raid lineup is going to come down to who has the better gear, then random luck is always going to be a factor. You can't blame that on TF.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

xD community QQ about titanfroging and they erase it. Now u QQing for bringing it back ? LOL

This just in, millions of players in a game means differing opinions on what is most enjoyable.

[Raelbo]

TL;DR: The supposed problems with TF almost always boiled down to the issue of player immaturity and the detrimental effect that has on one's game experience. And unfortunately such players would far rather devote their time and energy into finding something else to blame than to have some honest introspection. This has long been the situation with WoW and why every system, no matter how well designed, always gets replaced by a new system designed to address the issues demanded by these players. It should be pretty obvious why the systems never succeed - because they are attempting to fix a player problem with a game system, and that is just impossible.

[Elbob]

TL;DR: The supposed problems with TF almost always boiled down to the issue of player immaturity and the detrimental effect that has on one's game experience. And unfortunately such players would far rather devote their time and energy into finding something else to blame than to have some honest introspection. This has long been the situation with WoW and why every system, no matter how well designed, always gets replaced by a new system designed to address the issues demanded by these players. It should be pretty obvious why the systems never succeed - because they are attempting to fix a player problem with a game system, and that is just impossible.

Wanting rewards to reflect content levels you are participating in OR wanting the same rewards as those participating in content above you because RNG procs are fun?

If you want to be competitive with everyone else regardless of investment RPGs are the wrong genre since they are generally about character growth.

[Alroxas]

No. The real problem is players making bad choices about how to spend their time and then ironically calling the system stupid for "making" them act in such a way.

Or systems could be designed to not encourage this kind of behavior.

Case in point, the "faux" tier gear from Hellfire Citadel. LFR was (IMO) better in HFC because you didn't have raiders going down to LFR just for tier sets bonuses. Yes it also made LFR queues longer because there was less incentive to go into LFR but it also reduced the toxicity because you didn't have elitist players dropping down to LFR.

And is it really a bad choice or merely the choice of least resistance to gain player power? Another example: The AP farm of running Maw of Souls M+ repeatedly until Blizzard normalized AP returns so that Maw gave less AP than a longer dungeon?

Or how about the time that a guild sent their raid team to faction swap to Alliance so they could do the WM PvP quest which gave 1 piece of inflated gear? Said team also faction swapped back to Horde after that quest was done.


Players in WoW will (if given the opportunity) min/max the shit out of game systems for those tiny gains in throughput. Honestly that's not a good thing for the long term health of the game (or to the players).


In current (live) WoW, the great vault is an excellent example. How many players try to get 9 bosses killed + 10 M+ done and whatever amount of PvP needed to get a full 3x3 grid of choices? Especially at the start of a raid tier, that is exhausting to do on 1 character and yet players will do it for multiple characters for those potential power gains.