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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    nah - lets not pretend - 90 % of cases its because you are non-meta below 2500 score players.

    if you are meta 2500 then you get insta invites everywhere.
    Score and class is a different topic in itself though. If a work place are hiring a janitor with 2 years experience and you fit that bill, the company aren't evil people who deserves hate because they pick another applicant with 10 years of experience. If you have multiple applicants and one is more qualified that will always be a nod in their favor.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    i suggest trying at least 19-20 bracket

    bracket like 13-17 is absolute cesspool
    This is such a myopic view; and I don't say this because it's technically false; but because it's technically USELESS AS AN ADVICE.
    It's exactly like saying: "trying heroic Sylvanas with people that just killed it is stupid; try to do it with people on 5/10mythic+".
    Well DUH: people on level freaking 20+ on a dungeon will know it perfectly; that's useless advice for those on "13-17".

  3. #523
    Remove loot chest from dngs, remove time limit and make the dng about skill/coordination/fun , keep vault weekly loot from doing 1/3/10 dngs, this will remove player toxicity as it doesn't matter if you clear it in 5 or 50minutes, doesn't matter if someone dies, and it doesn't matter how many runs you're able to do in a day because 10 is all that matters a week.
    OR just bring back MOP Cms that were actually fun

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    Remove loot chest from dngs, remove time limit and make the dng about skill/coordination/fun , keep vault weekly loot from doing 1/3/10 dngs, this will remove player toxicity as it doesn't matter if you clear it in 5 or 50minutes, doesn't matter if someone dies, and it doesn't matter how many runs you're able to do in a day because 10 is all that matters a week.
    OR just bring back MOP Cms that were actually fun
    Or just leave M+ like they are and ADD some other activities with similar rewards and near to zero needs for a party to do them.

    I know it’s a mmorpg but it’s clear that anything above M0 dungeons that cannot be completed with guildmates or friends lead to threads like this, because it’s not my effort only, it’s my effort plus the effort of other 4 strangers and the more you reach a point in which mistakes cannot be fixed on the fly, the more failure has an high chance to occur, if you play with strangers. You can also fail with friends of course but consequences will not be that dramatic.

    This is also over amplified by queue times. When you see you are wasting half of your playtime in queue and after that you find a party that disbands at first boss for whatever reason, it’s frustrating.

    There is no way to mitigate this, so we need alternatives. This game has become all about ilvl, if you can’t raise it you will quit and unsub.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    This is such a myopic view; and I don't say this because it's technically false; but because it's technically USELESS AS AN ADVICE.
    It's exactly like saying: "trying heroic Sylvanas with people that just killed it is stupid; try to do it with people on 5/10mythic+".
    Well DUH: people on level freaking 20+ on a dungeon will know it perfectly; that's useless advice for those on "13-17".
    not really - this is mmorpg game - if you want to have better experience play with your friends in set team instead pugs.

    you feel that you are superior then others ? play with other equaly "superior" players instead complainign that people on level X play with skills of level X. you want to play with people with skills on level Y ? play on level Y.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Or just leave M+ like they are and ADD some other activities with similar rewards and near to zero needs for a party to do them.

    I know it’s a mmorpg but it’s clear that anything above M0 dungeons that cannot be completed with guildmates or friends lead to threads like this, because it’s not my effort only, it’s my effort plus the effort of other 4 strangers and the more you reach a point in which mistakes cannot be fixed on the fly, the more failure has an high chance to occur, if you play with strangers. You can also fail with friends of course but consequences will not be that dramatic.

    This is also over amplified by queue times. When you see you are wasting half of your playtime in queue and after that you find a party that disbands at first boss for whatever reason, it’s frustrating.

    There is no way to mitigate this, so we need alternatives. This game has become all about ilvl, if you can’t raise it you will quit and unsub.
    oh but there is - its mmorpg - find people with dimilair goals and play toghether - instead treat this game as quable lobby based solo instance symulator

    i guarantee your experience will change imidiately .

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    not really - this is mmorpg game - if you want to have better experience play with your friends in set team instead pugs.

    you feel that you are superior then others ? play with other equaly "superior" players instead complainign that people on level X play with skills of level X. you want to play with people with skills on level Y ? play on level Y.

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    oh but there is - its mmorpg - find people with dimilair goals and play toghether - instead treat this game as quable lobby based solo instance symulator

    i guarantee your experience will change imidiately .
    Now it is a lobby based queue sim anyways. But being it a mmorpg of course the coop part should stay.

    I see this “find friends” part everywhere but it’s not so simple. There is no LFF for obvious reasons, it’s not that you can just spam general with “hi I’m looking for friends”. And this is of course amplified depending on how much time you have to invest on the game.

    But it’s an old and recursive topic, it’s probably me not being able to stand group mmorpgs mechanics anymore because my sessions are short and cannot afford to waste half of them waiting to do the content instead of doing it.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Now it is a lobby based queue sim anyways. But being it a mmorpg of course the coop part should stay.

    I see this “find friends” part everywhere but it’s not so simple. There is no LFF for obvious reasons, it’s not that you can just spam general with “hi I’m looking for friends”. And this is of course amplified depending on how much time you have to invest on the game.

    But it’s an old and recursive topic, it’s probably me not being able to stand group mmorpgs mechanics anymore because my sessions are short and cannot afford to waste half of them waiting to do the content instead of doing it.
    there is always the old ancient fashioned way of "make thread on your realm forums that you look for stable team

    i can see for example quite a bit groups looking for people and forming on facebook (in my native language)

    or whenever you have good run whisper good tank//healer/dps if they want to add your real id and run some instnaces in future and then "shout" if anyone wants to do content X

  8. #528
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... how does that solve that you would be playing on a schedule? who the fuck wants to play on a schedule?
    You misunderstand. What I meant is that if you have a large enough pool of friends (each with different schedules) then it covers you when you decide to play.

    For instance, let's say Player Bob has a non-consistent schedule. Some times plays in the afternoons, sometimes in the evenings, sometime in the wee hours of the morning.

    Now if Bob has made friends Jake, Alan, Betsy, Doug, and Mike and each has their own times when they are online (e.g. Jake works in the mornings but is typically online in the evenings, Alan is on the other coast so is either +/- 3 hours offset, Betsy exclusively plays during the day, Doug can't play during the week but is online almost all day/night on the weekends, etc etc). Then you're never in a situation where you can't play with someone you know regardless of what time you pick to play. Because of the variety of time frames that other people play regularly, by having such a diverse pool of players you're never in a situation where you're 100% PuG the entire group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    OR just bring back MOP Cms that were actually fun
    Eh... MoP CM Dungeons were such an optimization headache anyway. Let's see how many gem sockets I can squeeze in because gem sockets weren't scaled down as equally as gear was.
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  9. #529
    Fundamental issue with M+ is that you have two groups of people that are going in there with entirely different goals in mind

    There's one group of people that are only running dungeons for gear, and happy to take their 1-4 keys a week even if it takes an hour to finish a dungeon
    And another group of people that are pushing for score and do high keys for bragging rights.

    The higher the keys go, the more the second group is favored. After +16, I find there's a lot more people that are perfectly happy to kill a group with no hesitation. If they wanted gear, they'd be in a 15.

    I think the actual solution here is doing both of the following
    1. No rewards for missing the timer. Nothing at end of dungeon chest, nothing in great vault, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Might as well automatically kick the players out of the dungeon if not cleared at timer end.

    2. Make keys work like D3 greater rifts - they don't downgrade, you can always enter a key of your highest level. The first idea *alone* is terrible if only because of the frustration from having your keys downgraded to hell with the increased leave rate.

    By getting completely rid of even the idea that you can spend 90 minutes in a key for your loot, it aligns the goals of both groups - that key has to get finished on time or there's no point in running it.

    Edit - and I don't think trying to align the other way works nearly as well. If you remove the timer and tracking and only award things based on key completion, you still have people that just don't want to be a in a key for 90 minutes and split the group. I think removing the gear puts everyone on the same page at least.
    Last edited by crazyman2; 2021-09-08 at 09:06 PM.

  10. #530
    Really all they need to do is plug in something like FF14 uses for its group content. Now, I don't think WoW needs it for ALL content for M+ for example it makes a lot of sense because as of right now you lose a recourse in the keystone level if someone just dips.

    So the way it works is if its going bad people can put up a "vote" to end the run and no one get a negative mark for leaving early if it passes. Everyone gets one free dip out a day to cover things like your power goes out etc that happens. But once you get a 2nd you just cannot join groups of that content for the rest of the day. If people pull the AFK or "refuse to do anything" if they don't get there way you can be voted against to receive a mark and removed. So yeah, some people can still ruin a key but they cannot do it all day all night to groups. It is also kind of odd if people would vote to remove someone in a M+ group that destroys what they are doing unless its pretty bad. Of course, some trolling will happen but at least its not unlimited and unstoppable. It is already happening in mass in th game anyway so I doubt it makes things worse than it is now because at least it reduces the "I don't like the first pull because it took .02 seconds longer then I like, goodbye" stuff. The whole thing is pretty much automated. But I understand it makes to much sense. So no way in hell it will happen.
    Last edited by Low Hanging Fruit; 2021-09-11 at 07:53 PM.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It’s purely abusive behavior that should be banned, because 99% of the time they do it because 1 out of 5 failed so they abuse 3 out of 5 there without deserving it.
    or you could be the person that is not pulling your weight and is just wasting that person's time. kinda sounds like a complaint from someone like that.

  12. #532
    The penalty is the time they waste in the key.

    The problem is the system asks one players to risk more then the four others. Mythic plus should simply have the keystone at the start of the dungeon have a scrolling wheel to select difficulty rather then the current keystone system.

    Making difficulty a unlockable reward is always a dumb idea. If people want to challenge themselves let them.

  13. #533
    Remove a dungeon from their vault credit or have them drop score. People leaving dungeons has been getting ridiculous, especially this week (tyran, explosive, bolstering)

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    or you could be the person that is not pulling your weight and is just wasting that person's time. kinda sounds like a complaint from someone like that.
    nah, that's a delusional assumption. The entire way M+ is designed supports the concept of "Quitting while you're ahead." This includes those that ditch after a single wipe. The concept of a death counter that acts against you is genuinely a plague, and the way high keys are "designed," many deaths can come from a single person's mistake. This mistake could very well and often does come from folks who are "pulling their weight" in terms of damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Or just leave M+ like they are and ADD some other activities with similar rewards and near to zero needs for a party to do them.

    I know it’s a mmorpg but it’s clear that anything above M0 dungeons that cannot be completed with guildmates or friends lead to threads like this, because it’s not my effort only, it’s my effort plus the effort of other 4 strangers and the more you reach a point in which mistakes cannot be fixed on the fly, the more failure has an high chance to occur, if you play with strangers. You can also fail with friends of course but consequences will not be that dramatic.

    This is also over amplified by queue times. When you see you are wasting half of your playtime in queue and after that you find a party that disbands at first boss for whatever reason, it’s frustrating.

    There is no way to mitigate this, so we need alternatives. This game has become all about ilvl, if you can’t raise it you will quit and unsub.
    Myhtic 0 rewards badges. Mythic + at high keystones rewards currency for exclusive content. There can also be a scaling reward with badges, rewarding more for higher keys, but no loss of rewards for failing to meet a timer. Badges can be used to purchase gear that might not be optimal, but competitive, and takes a while to acquire. Raid bosses also drop badges. This allows Mythics to offer a progression route for raiders without falling victim to arbitrary benchmarks that reward toxic behavior. You will still earn badges even if you don't time a Mythic dungeon.

    The highest mythic dungeons will reward exclusive cosmetics like Challenge Modes of old.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    nah, that's a delusional assumption. The entire way M+ is designed supports the concept of "Quitting while you're ahead." This includes those that ditch after a single wipe. The concept of a death counter that acts against you is genuinely a plague, and the way high keys are "designed," many deaths can come from a single person's mistake. This mistake could very well and often does come from folks who are "pulling their weight" in terms of damage.
    "Pulling your weight" just doesn't mean damage, that also includes mechanics/cc/interuppts/positioning it doesn't matter if you are doing 50k dps if you face pull some random shit or miss an interrupt and kill the group. That's incompetence.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Now it is a lobby based queue sim anyways. But being it a mmorpg of course the coop part should stay.

    I see this “find friends” part everywhere but it’s not so simple. There is no LFF for obvious reasons, it’s not that you can just spam general with “hi I’m looking for friends”. And this is of course amplified depending on how much time you have to invest on the game.

    But it’s an old and recursive topic, it’s probably me not being able to stand group mmorpgs mechanics anymore because my sessions are short and cannot afford to waste half of them waiting to do the content instead of doing it.
    maybe its time for blizzard to introduce "looking for friends " feature then .

    but be honest - most of you dont look for friends - most of you look for people who play on exackly the same level as you do - not lower preferably higher so they can carry you

    what would solve 90 % of toxic issues would be AI playing on level equal to players rating.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nyarlo View Post
    Remove a dungeon from their vault credit or have them drop score. People leaving dungeons has been getting ridiculous, especially this week (tyran, explosive, bolstering)
    and what all those dungeons had in common ? i mean there was only 1 "the same" person in all of them

    maybe there was a reason why they were leaving.

    thx god next 2 weeks are "push " weeks so we wont see those threads return untill october 6th

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    maybe there was a reason why they were leaving.
    Beats me, we're talking people leaving right after 1 pull of no deaths, no nothing. At this point, is not even a matter of ''I dont want to wastemytime w/ u scrubs lmao''. Don't try to justify their shitty behavior by assuming our team was shit. Funnily enough, this was not even a hard week.

    We also had one leave after 1 wipe on last boss, trash done, well within 6mins of timing it, and he still left after wasting 30mins of everyone's time. Yep, DoS.

    Or better yet, healers fails mechanics, dies to a frontal cone then leaves.

    All in all, if you don't have ''time'' to pug your dungeons, you might as well wait for your friends or build up your own team. We're a team of 3, and it's incredibly disheartening to have our keys ruined by 1 person who seems to get off on wasting people's times. There NEEDS to be some sort of penalty.

  18. #538
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyarlo View Post
    Remove a dungeon from their vault credit or have them drop score. People leaving dungeons has been getting ridiculous, especially this week (tyran, explosive, bolstering)
    Nope because that kind of punishment just creates degenerative gameplay. Instead of leaving (and players regroup), now you have players who will purposely "abandon" a run without actually leaving. Maybe they just stand there (and shuffle from side to side to prevent AFK timer) or maybe they start pulling extra crap or doing stuff to wipe the group "accidentally".

    Do you really want to suffer through a troll versus just letting them leave?

    Once you attach any kind of penalty to leaving early then players will simply adopt a strategy to cause someone else to leave first so that they can avoid the penalty.

    Reporting systems don't work well because:

    a) false reporting issues
    b) requires additional human work for review to prevent abuse.

    For ABK, they aren't going to want to spend additional resources for a system they think can easily be solved by players doing M+ with people they know.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nyarlo View Post
    We're a team of 3, and it's incredibly disheartening to have our keys ruined by 1 person who seems to get off on wasting people's times. There NEEDS to be some sort of penalty.
    Or recruit 2 more solid players? Are you telling me that out of the thousands of players of WoW, you can't find 2 more dependable players?

    How about this, the next time you PuG the last two slots... If those players are good, invite them to be friends and say "Hey it was great running with you and if you want, we regularly run M+ on X days. Would it be ok to add you and have you join us from time to time?"
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  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It’s purely abusive behavior that should be banned, because 99% of the time they do it because 1 out of 5 failed so they abuse 3 out of 5 there without deserving it.
    The way you want to play mplus is with a grain of humility, applying to groups you are confident that you can pull your weight off, and it goes same with inviting other people to your key, the higher the key the more unforgiving mistakes are. Take your sweet time, or surely expect the uncertainty. I like that they introduced mythic rating, this removes a lot of disorienting factors and gives you at least some confidence in your team mates.

    Sometimes the key just doesn't work out and quitting is the only option, there is no need for tyrany in punishing these players, brush it off and go again.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Nope because that kind of punishment just creates degenerative gameplay. Instead of leaving (and players regroup), now you have players who will purposely "abandon" a run without actually leaving. Maybe they just stand there (and shuffle from side to side to prevent AFK timer) or maybe they start pulling extra crap or doing stuff to wipe the group "accidentally".

    Do you really want to suffer through a troll versus just letting them leave?

    Once you attach any kind of penalty to leaving early then players will simply adopt a strategy to cause someone else to leave first so that they can avoid the penalty.
    This 100%.

    You cannot police everything in the world. Often the solutions are worse than the problem.

    Thankfully, there is a solution: play with people you know!
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

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