Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Lahis]

The funny thing about this theory is, 9.0.5 basically had the same reasoning as 9.1.5 then. Sure, the upcoming lawsuit wasn't known back then, but 9.0.5 served the same purpose as 9.1.5. And we know they did not plan to have 9.0.5 either and it came out of nowhere.

Tells something about the company and the expansion when every x.x.5 patch is just a bandaid fix to ease the crippling problems in the game and/or the company's public image.

[Dracullus]

Tells something about the company and the expansion when every x.x.5 patch is just a bandaid fix to ease the crippling problems in the game and/or the company's public image.

Not "crippling problems" - one problem, but huge one. Content drought. It's caused both by delays and abandoning Legion model that worked so well (small patch - raid/season, big patch - catch up zone to previous raid, dungeon, story).

[AngerFork]

Not "crippling problems" - one problem, but huge one. Content drought. It's caused both by delays and abandoning Legion model that worked so well (small patch - raid/season, big patch - catch up zone to previous raid, dungeon, story).

I'm still amazed that they abandoned that model after it worked so well. There was always content coming, none of it ever really felt too old, & I can imagine that it was a ton easier on project managers & devs to have that sort of schedule. I have to wonder how much better 9.1 would've gone down had they gotten the non-raid content ready earlier & pushed out the raid a bit later as part of a 9.1.5.

[Lady Atia]

I'm still amazed that they abandoned that model after it worked so well. There was always content coming, none of it ever really felt too old, & I can imagine that it was a ton easier on project managers & devs to have that sort of schedule. I have to wonder how much better 9.1 would've gone down had they gotten the non-raid content ready earlier & pushed out the raid a bit later as part of a 9.1.5.

Castle Nathria was already out far longer than it should have been. They could have done the updated Maw+Korthia with 9.0.5 and the raid with 9.1. but delaying SoD even further would have killed the game.

[Dracullus]

Castle Nathria was already out far longer than it should have been. They could have done the updated Maw+Korthia with 9.0.5 and the raid with 9.1. but delaying SoD even further would have killed the game.

We rather think about ideal scenario - so 9.1 (without raid) in March, then 9.1.5 with raid and timewalking in late June, then 9.2 around September/October (again, zone with catch up gear, but no raid), etc.

[Lady Atia]

We rather think about ideal scenario - so 9.1 (without raid) in March, then 9.1.5 with raid and timewalking in late June, then 9.2 around September/October (again, zone with catch up gear, but no raid), etc.

Oh yeah that could have worked - also add Tazavesh with 9.0.5. and you would have a smooth catch up curve (and a mega dungeon that makes sense to do, unlike now ...)

[AngerFork]

Oh yeah that could have worked - also add Tazavesh with 9.0.5. and you would have a smooth catch up curve (and a mega dungeon that makes sense to do, unlike now ...)

Exactly. Tazavesh feels near useless to do now which is a shame as it really is a solid dungeon overall. Plus new content tends to cover up all sorts of missteps. Legion had a ton of issues IMO, but with the new content there was always something to do & consistent progress towards fixing those missteps. One has to think that had 9.1 come out in March with 9.1.5 in June/July, the community might not be as up in arms.

[Sondrelk]

I'm still amazed that they abandoned that model after it worked so well. There was always content coming, none of it ever really felt too old, & I can imagine that it was a ton easier on project managers & devs to have that sort of schedule. I have to wonder how much better 9.1 would've gone down had they gotten the non-raid content ready earlier & pushed out the raid a bit later as part of a 9.1.5.

I wouldnt really say Blizzard abandoned it necessarily. They did specifically state that the patch cadence led to some problem early on when Trial of Valor undercut the progression of Emerald Nightmare for instance, and further came too close to the release of Nighthold. But it seemed more likely that Blizzard wanted to have a similar patch release cycle but didnt manage for whatever reason.


I think most of the problems with SL really does come down to the long droughts. The launch was pretty much perfect in that sense. Playerss were complaining about stuff, but that always happens. The real issues didnt really show up until 9.1 took longer than it should have. Players were already burned out by the time it released, and even though 9.1 is undoubtedly a more sizeable patch than the usual X.1 patches, because of the drought it had to in a sense be treated like a X.2 patch, of which it falls short. This patch isnt really bad either, the raid is good and all, but the drought is slowly killing enthusiasm.

Had we been closer to a regular patch cadence we would have likely been in 9.2 already, eagerly awaiting the next minor patch, waiting for a 9.3 announcement, not to mention a new expansion announcement come November.

[Lady Atia]

Exactly. Tazavesh feels near useless to do now which is a shame as it really is a solid dungeon overall. Plus new content tends to cover up all sorts of missteps. Legion had a ton of issues IMO, but with the new content there was always something to do & consistent progress towards fixing those missteps. One has to think that had 9.1 come out in March with 9.1.5 in June/July, the community might not be as up in arms.

Indeed. I think I did hardmode like 3 times for the gear early on, haven't found a good group for normal mount run since as even if you find a group for it it's full of alts or bad players ... well I guess I'll have to spam keys for it in 9.2.

[Sondrelk]

Exactly. Tazavesh feels near useless to do now which is a shame as it really is a solid dungeon overall. Plus new content tends to cover up all sorts of missteps. Legion had a ton of issues IMO, but with the new content there was always something to do & consistent progress towards fixing those missteps. One has to think that had 9.1 come out in March with 9.1.5 in June/July, the community might not be as up in arms.

I think Legion made the best call in bundling the mega-dungeon with a mini-raid.
A proper raid will always beat out a dungeon unless it has absurdly inflated loot, and even then that just means you get a mad dash for loot then nothing.
In Legion you had Trial of Valor for good gear, and Karazhan for "content". Neither really ended up stepping on eachothers toes.

A mega-dungeon alongside a regular raid just means the dungeon will be deprecated on launch since it will just end up as an instance inferior in every way to a regular raid.

[Nyel]

Having the 9.1.5 Covenant stuff already in 9.0.5 would have helped as well. I mean they're basically doing what players asked for in beta, but they refused to give it to us in 9.0.5 already although it was overdue. In 9.1.5 it just feels too little too late on the grand scheme of mismanagement that Shadowlands is.

[AngerFork]

Having the 9.1.5 Covenant stuff already in 9.0.5 would have helped as well. I mean they're basically doing what players asked for in beta, but they refused to give it to us in 9.0.5 already although it was overdue. In 9.1.5 it just feels too little too late on the grand scheme of mismanagement that Shadowlands is.

For sure. Leaving something in like that which made so many players/content creators upset is just asking for a player mutiny. While I definitely think the devs shouldn't always listen to the players on everything, that was something they could've had as an easy win that they turned into a massive loss.

[Lahis]

Had we been closer to a regular patch cadence we would have likely been in 9.2 already, eagerly awaiting the next minor patch, waiting for a 9.3 announcement, not to mention a new expansion announcement come November.

With normal patch schedule 9.3 would be in late PTR testing right now and launch in November near Blizzcon.

[Dracullus]

Having the 9.1.5 Covenant stuff already in 9.0.5 would have helped as well. I mean they're basically doing what players asked for in beta, but they refused to give it to us in 9.0.5 already although it was overdue. In 9.1.5 it just feels too little too late on the grand scheme of mismanagement that Shadowlands is.

Funny thing, no matter when something happen, people like you will say "too little too late". These comments are pointless like "they never listen to feedback", but you can spot them every single patch.

And no, people that quit because of drought wouldn't stay because you can try other covenants. Why I know that? Because even with drought most people didn't even maxed out their original covenant. Only answer for drought are regular patches. It's not like 9.1.5 changes will bring masses either, these are changes for people that already like SL and want easier time on alts/alt covenants.

Not to mention that 9.1 is direct continuation of 9.0. They give you everything in 9.0 or 9.0.5, Anima rains from the sky, covenant restrictions are lifted... what now? 9.0->9.1 had TBC to help with subs a little, 9.1->9.2 doesn't have that.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I don’t think content drought was Shadowlands’ problem, it was it’s anemic reward structure. I found there was a lot of stuff to do at the beginning: covenant sanctums and their unique mini games, cosmetics, Torghast, M+ and raiding for those who like that. It’s just that the reward grind was so horrendous that it made me not want to play at all. Anima was awful to grind. Everything was so expensive and would have required so many WQs that I stopped bothering. Torghast could have rewarded cosmetics and gear from the beginning. It didn’t and after I got my legendary I stopped caring and Twisting Corridors was so such a long slog with pitiful rewards (only on every other level too, WTF?). There were all the cosmetics between all four covenants and all four armor types I would have liked to have gone for but switching covenants sucked and again, the anima grind so I didn’t do it.

They fixed some of this a little on 9.1 and more with 9.1.5 but well before that I got fed up with The game and Blizz’s shit and left. Too much goodwill was lost.

[Nyel]

Funny thing, no matter when something happen, people like you will say "too little too late". These comments are pointless like "they never listen to feedback", but you can spot them every single patch.

Because that is what it boils down to? The message is important, not the sender, and in this case it's clear. I mean even you are pessimistic and I haven't witnessed that ever before in the last years. And that must mean something.

Do you disagree that everything they are doing in 9.1.5 regarding Covenants has been asked for in beta to make the system more tolerable overall? Blizzard was still belittling the players right around 9.0.5 and just did the minimum regarding Covenants just to basically do a 180 turn around in 9.1.5. For once they had a very prominent example they could have learned from: Azerite gear, but they simply didn't. I don't think saying "it's too little too late" in 9.1.5 is disingenuous.

I mean you're absolutely right with the lack of content, but Shadowlands had mechanical problems that were driving away players way before the content drought kicked in. They could have stopped that waaaaaaaaaaay sooner, yet they refused to do so. That's what I am talking about and that results in your point: only people that like Shadowlands are left and now they don't need the mechanical fixes, they need content, yet all they have in store is mechanical / gameplay fixes.

[Dracullus]

I mean you're absolutely right with the lack of content, but Shadowlands had mechanical problems that were driving away players way before the content drought kicked in. They could have stopped that waaaaaaaaaaay sooner, yet they refused to do so. That's what I am talking about and that results in your point: only people that like Shadowlands are left and now they don't need the mechanical fixes, they need content, yet all they have in store is mechanical / gameplay fixes.

I call this bullshit, cause I remember SL had pretty warm welcome. Of course launch tourists always leave.

Content drought problem started not when patch didn't land on March, but when we waited and waited for 9.1 reveal and PTR. This playerbase need both content in game and something to wait for. In BfA you had reveal just after Uldir WF, in Legion even before launch, in SL... 3 months after launch.

Content creators screamed a lot about covenants before launch, but when SL started everyone just picked cov from wowhead and stick with it. Completely different things were issues. It was sparse loot, pretty low player power ceiling for casuals and Torghast.

And for 100th time, 9.1.5 changes are simply lifting restrictions, not mechanical fixes, that's why they work only for people who already like SL. It will be fun to play around with 3 new covenants only if you liked to play around with first one.

It's like flying, when they introduce it in later patch, it doesn't mean "they didn't listen to players who wanted flying on release". Legendary vendor in 7.3.5 wasn't "mechanical fix" either. Something like 8.2 neck changes was.

Usually changes like this are reserved for last patch, that's difference this time.

[Alanar]

I don’t think content drought was Shadowlands’ problem, it was it’s anemic reward structure. I found there was a lot of stuff to do at the beginning: covenant sanctums and their unique mini games, cosmetics, Torghast, M+ and raiding for those who like that. It’s just that the reward grind was so horrendous that it made me not want to play at all. Anima was awful to grind. Everything was so expensive and would have required so many WQs that I stopped bothering. Torghast could have rewarded cosmetics and gear from the beginning. It didn’t and after I got my legendary I stopped caring and Twisting Corridors was so such a long slog with pitiful rewards (only on every other level too, WTF?). There were all the cosmetics between all four covenants and all four armor types I would have liked to have gone for but switching covenants sucked and again, the anima grind so I didn’t do it.

They fixed some of this a little on 9.1 and more with 9.1.5 but well before that I got fed up with The game and Blizz’s shit and left. Too much goodwill was lost.

Reward structure was a problem and still is imo. But I see the systems as a big failure to.. none of them realy mattered or kept you engaged. I mean literally none of them..

[Dracullus]

Reward structure was a problem and still is imo. But I see the systems as a big failure to.. none of them realy mattered or kept you engaged. I mean literally none of them..

Oh, it's clear why - you don't earn them. Artifact would be pretty pointless as well if everyone get free point every week. Personally I would prefer if you had to earn them like in Legion, but with whole system account wide.

[brandolf123]

What do you guys think, new build today?

I wonder when the actual patch is gonna come out and when we're gonna see a preview for 9.2