Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Eggroll]

@Eggroll it doesn't matter if it was a playable race or not, unless you want to tell me that there are genocides and genocides

It does though. One, I experienced as a player, member of that faction. The other I only read about. Why is this so hard to grasp?
It's like: getting your head chopped off, or reading about someone getting their head chopped of 100 years ago. Both are bad. But does it make a difference for you?
And you say: no it's the same.

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Violence is pretty tame in WoW, enough for it to be PG12. But you're the one who wants to see a public execution of Sylvanas. And unless this execution gets properly censored, playing out a death penalty on screen is a bit hardcore.

Also, it's okay to feel for the characters suffering, that's the point. But acting on those feelings and claiming the story should be written in a way that suits you is just letting those feelings get ahead of yourself.

And that's the kind of thing that leads to fiction becoming more and more dull, because viewers can't just handle it and take everything personally.

So you have no point other than trying to boil it down to me "being too emotional". Haven't we heard that before. Nice try at gaslighting.

[DatToffer]

So you have no point other than trying to boil it down to me "being too emotional". Haven't we heard that before. Nice try at gaslighting.

It is what it is. If I'm not the only one saying that to you, maybe you should try working on it.

[Syegfryed]

1- that's very specific 'genocide', dwarf didn't wipe out Taurens as race, just 1 tribe, and in that case horde did a lot of 'micro' genocide too

A genocide as per definition does not need to be for an entire race, it can be with the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", the stonespire was a tribe of taurens with their own customs and unique traits, and the dwarves intent to destroy as whole to get their lands.

2- being able to speak or act in low intelligent status doesn't make it genocide, murlocs or gnolls are still not really sentient, they can use tools yes, but they are nowhere in civilization as other races on azeroth, and gnolls specially are evil race that deserves what happens to them in first place, if i want to blame humans (of wow), i surely won't hold gnolls on their very long list of crimes

Gnolls are fully sentient, they almost won against the kingdom of stormwind, is like saying tribal people are not "rly sentient" because no "civilization" that is not an argument and boderline offensive.

we don't even get larger body count, humans alone dwarf entire horde kill count, we still not counting other alliance races like nelfs who killed any opposition as Maeiv stated in that crap of novel (that as far i know still official lore) or draenei who will dwarf all other races combined

Maiev also said that in the wc3 campaign, not sure about the novel

we still don't have a clear idea how burn of teldrassil happened, i remember that factions had quests that contradict each others, and blizz still didn't explain it
like they didn't explain how demons are one and same across all universes in WoD, 10 years passed guys only 1502 left for the promised answer

and we will never will, because that expansion was a shitshow that would not happened if they were not incompetent and followed their own lore, it was a bs for drama.

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It is what it is. If I'm not the only one saying that to you, maybe you should try working on it.

alliance players often use the fallacy of appeal to emotions, trying to get their point validate

[draugril]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

If the Alliance wants to take back the Blood Elves and their Undead Ranger-General...

[sam86]

A genocide as per definition does not need to be for an entire race, it can be with the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", the stonespire was a tribe of taurens with their own customs and unique traits, and the dwarves intent to destroy as whole to get their lands.



Gnolls are fully sentient, they almost won against the kingdom of stormwind, is like saying tribal people are not "rly sentient" because no "civilization" that is not an argument and boderline offensive.




Maiev also said that in the wc3 campaign, not sure about the novel



and we will never will, because that expansion was a shitshow that would not happened if they were not incompetent and followed their own lore, it was a bs for drama.

1- I still not prefer to every small event as genocide, it may be correct, but in that case we will refer to a lot of genocides in wow, i just use it for entire races
2- I still see Gnolls were right in that fight, they were clearly the evil one here
3- i don't even remember it in wc3? any link pls?
4- why? it is really easy to explain, 1 side IS the correct one, either alliance or horde, who they need to decide, unlike a lot of WoD bullshit crap that isn't simple because it is flat out nonsense, this part specifically is easy, one side is correct version
unless they want to make both sides 'correct' then it joins wod bullshit nonsense

[DatToffer]

alliance players often use the fallacy of appeal to emotions, trying to get their point validate

Yeah, I mean it's okay to get emotional even for a dumb story. Heck, you can even be hypersensitive or whatever.


But we're on a forum not a goddam social network, you can think before you post, sort your emotions out. And not calmly explain why the story and the game HAVE to go one way or another because your feelings were hurt.

A genocide as per definition does not need to be for an entire race, it can be with the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", the stonespire was a tribe of taurens with their own customs and unique traits, and the dwarves intent to destroy as whole to get their lands.

By that definition, Sylvanas actions are not even a genocide. Yet it is described as one in the novella. So I guess even the writers don't know the definition. Or the character ingame who is uttering the word has a different definition from us, lol.

Maiev also said that in the wc3 campaign, not sure about the novel

Yeah, I got it right here.

[InfernalDark]

What about alliance leaders molesting altar boys?

[Syegfryed]

1- I still not prefer to every small event as genocide, it may be correct, but in that case we will refer to a lot of genocides in wow, i just use it for entire races

but thats the point, there is tons of genocides in wow, small or bigger scales, but people are trying to make Teldrassil as the big thing just because it hit the night elves /aka, alliance

2- I still see Gnolls were right in that fight, they were clearly the evil one here

who were the evil ones? cause pretty sure the humans went rampant getting everyone else land, trolls and gnolls alike

3- i don't even remember it in wc3? any link pls?

Maiev Shadowsong: Naga? Many craven races have tempted our wrath over the centuries. None have survived!

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ris...(WC3_NightElf)

4- why? it is really easy to explain, 1 side IS the correct one, either alliance or horde, who they need to decide, unlike a lot of WoD bullshit crap that isn't simple because it is flat out nonsense, this part specifically is easy, one side is correct version
unless they want to make both sides 'correct' then it joins wod bullshit nonsense

just because is easy, or logic, don't mean they will do.

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Yeah, I mean it's okay to get emotional even for a dumb story. Heck, you can even be hypersensitive or whatever.


But we're on a forum not a goddam social network, you can think before you post, sort your emotions out. And not calmly explain why the story and the game HAVE to go one way or another because your feelings were hurt.

its totally ok because we are indeed attached to the story, we read, played and experienced over the years, of course it will be something personal.

my problem is when people try to make their point more valid using that, like saying it is worse for you, because you suffered the most... come on, that is no even something you can quantify, other races got way, waaay worse than the night elves over the years, but people here are trying to paint how what happened to then is a serious sin, or "a slap in the face"

of course what i will say now is completely empirical on my own experience, but this often happens with elf players, in any media elves are part off, they are the ones with the fanabase like this.

By that definition, Sylvanas actions are not even a genocide. Yet it is described as one in the novella. So I guess even the writers don't know the definition. Or the character ingame who is uttering the word has a different definition from us, lol.

It is more for a show and drama, to make something more heavy and add shock value, i guess it was back in the time GoT was a thing, and Danuseur said S08 was awesome,

Not even that many people died(pretty sure Malfurion killed more horde soldiers in the attack), they didn't even felt pain, the more damage was in the place itself, that they had to relocate. This isn't the end of the world,

[Tikishock]

Yes, they should be forced to break up for continually being shitty and electing shitty leaders.

[sam86]

It is more for a show and drama, to make something more heavy and add shock value, i guess it was back in the time GoT was a thing, and Danuseur said S08 was awesome,

is that a joke or fucking real? i don't need more reason to hate him but fuck that's retard even for him

[Ardenaso]

is that a joke or fucking real? i don't need more reason to hate him but fuck that's retard even for him

https://twitter.com/stevedanuser/sta...81070701678592

[Soon-TM]

It does though. One, I experienced as a player, member of that faction. The other I only read about. Why is this so hard to grasp?
It's like: getting your head chopped off, or reading about someone getting their head chopped of 100 years ago. Both are bad. But does it make a difference for you?
.

That's precisely the point. Yes, both are bad, but that isn't what the narrative tells us. The narrative systematically puts a huge neon ad over the Horde atrocities, while minimising or outright ignoring Alliance ones.

[sam86]

https://twitter.com/stevedanuser/sta...81070701678592

why the fuck would anyone like that in first place, let alone be proud of it?
this tweet alone shows how detached he is from reality and that he should NEVER work in anything that has ANY effect on public, at all

[Caperfin]

no, not even in the real world this is a thing.

I was gonna point this out, but you beat me to it.

[VladlTutushkin]

It is what it is. If I'm not the only one saying that to you, maybe you should try working on it.

Its not what it is. Besides, if its “just a game bro” then why horde fans shriek as if their balls were set on fire every time your warchief gets a mad cow disease?

Or when Alliance players ask for Sylvanas head.

[DatToffer]

Its not what it is. Besides, if its “just a game bro” then why horde fans shriek as if their balls were set on fire every time your warchief gets a mad cow disease?

I guess because every time one of our warchief goes rogues, Alliance players come shrieking into our ears how our faction should be obliterated and we should feel bad for enjoying playing it ?

But eyh, just because some people in the other faction bleed, it doesn't mean it's healthy for you to do it too.

Or when Alliance players ask for Sylvanas head.

You have night elves whiners, we have Sylvanas simps. To each their own brand of crazy. Notice how they both go mad for knife ears, I'm pretty sure they are all part of the high-elf advocates. Yikes.

[VladlTutushkin]

I guess because every time one of our warchief goes rogues, Alliance players come shrieking into our ears how our faction should be obliterated and we should feel bad for enjoying playing it ?

But eyh, just because some people in the other faction bleed, it doesn't mean it's healthy for you to do it too.



You have night elves whiners, we have Sylvanas simps. To each their own brand of crazy. Notice how they both go mad for knife ears, I'm pretty sure they are all part of the high-elf advocates. Yikes.

Yeah no. It started before BfA when Alliance really began to get louder and louder (mostly because fucken lore was like a shovel of shit in their faces and nobody will swallow that quietly) while Horde fans were loud about it since Garrosh. And generally act like any act of “punishment” towards the Horde is a hot iron forced up their rectum.

Meanwhile they dont seem to understand, somehow, why Alliance players are upset that game designated them as schoolyard nerd losers who are stuffed in the locker, flushed in the toilet and tied to a flagpole. But as its a good, Christian (just joking) gaming company in the end they have to forgive, forget and move on until next whacky episode arrives and it all begins again.

[AcidicSyn]

I guess because every time one of our warchief goes rogues, Alliance players come shrieking into our ears how our faction should be obliterated and we should feel bad for enjoying playing it ?

But eyh, just because some people in the other faction bleed, it doesn't mean it's healthy for you to do it too.



You have night elves whiners, we have Sylvanas simps. To each their own brand of crazy. Notice how they both go mad for knife ears, I'm pretty sure they are all part of the high-elf advocates. Yikes.

Your Thedas is showing friend.

[DatToffer]

Yeah no. It started before BfA when Alliance really began to get louder and louder (mostly because fucken lore was like a shovel of shit in their faces and nobody will swallow that quietly) while Horde fans were loud about it since Garrosh. And generally act like any act of “punishment” towards the Horde is a hot iron forced up their rectum.

Meanwhile they dont seem to understand, somehow, why Alliance players are upset that game designated them as schoolyard nerd losers who are stuffed in the locker, flushed in the toilet and tied to a flagpole. But as its a good, Christian (just joking) gaming company in the end they have to forgive, forget and move on until next whacky episode arrives and it all begins again.

Oh okay, I see how it is. I will take your excuse that Alliance players are just tired of their faction being the narrative pushover, but then you'll have to listen to mine.

Horde players in their right mind are not mad that their leaders don't face consequences, they are mad that they turn into nasty cliche of corrupted villains. Sure people could enjoy Garrosh being an unapologetic asshole, we have a right to enjoy our monsters being monsters. The problem is that instead of having it run along into something interesting, it was cut short by that «oh no he actually hates the Horde and he's corrupted» moment.

But if you met people who unironically think that Garrosh did nothing wrong, you can put them in the asshole bag with :

_Sylvanas simps.
_People who seriously blame Elune for the night elves fate in BFA.
_People who feel entitled to get Sylvanas head as a trophy for their fireplace whenever housing comes out.
_Probably some others, like people who think vulperas are furry shits but are okay with taurens and worgen.

[Aresk]

we don't even get larger body count, humans alone dwarf entire horde kill count, we still not counting other alliance races like nelfs who killed any opposition as Maeiv stated in that crap of novel (that as far i know still official lore) or draenei who will dwarf all other races combined
Ironically pre-legion u couldn't blame draenei because they were trying to stay alive, but after we learn in legion that that was bullshit reason and even a tinier group of draenei stood against BL since the exodus day, it made the idea of 'running away' selfish and even cruel and evil since u could avoided all that pointless death if u decided to join ur lightforge branch and fight and probably win because the idea of Lightforge draenei made BL a joke who can't beat a handful of draenei HD for thousands of years, imagine if their number was 100 times more (ie: rest of draenei join them), we probably won't even see BL

Are you comparing an organization to a racial history here? It seems odd to limit Horde to only kills committed during the Horde's founding and include all humanity across history for Alliance, or incorporate other factions. Yes, the eredar did a lot of bad things, but the draenei were not involved to the point of becoming victims themselves. Blaming one group's victims for that group's other victims seems...misplaced at best.

If you aren't comparing organization to racial history, I question where you got that humans alone killed more than orcs, blood elves, trolls, tauren, forsaken, goblins, and vulpera. Orcs alone exterminated most of the other dominant civilizations on another world, while humans at worst were largely contained to a single continent. I'm not saying humans are innocent, because we've seen they're prone to violent solutions and willing to exterminate any other races living on what they consider their land. I just question the claim that they dwarf everyone else, when orcs, night elves, and trolls also have such large kill counts.