Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Luck4]

Mythic + is only a problem because Blizzard wants Raids to be the most rewarding activity and the ultimate goal of every PVE player, but they need to get out of it, Mythic + is way more popular, and if raids can't keep players engaged then it's the raids that need to be changed/fixed.

If people don't wanna do raids, then the problem is the raid itself, not Mythic + or PVP. Blizzard devs should ask themselves: Why people don't wanna raid? Why do people think raids are not fun? Instead of... How can we make Mythic + less rewarding and enjoyable so people do raids?

We gotta adapt, the truth is that Mythic + is probably the activity that's keeping the most player subbed these days, without it, I'm sure the game would be in an even dire state. (Imagine if Pandaria or WOD had Mythic +)

Blizzard doesn't need to change something that's working (Mythic+ dungeons), they need to change what is not working (raids).

[Makabreska]

Mythic + is only a problem because Blizzard wants Raids to be the most rewarding activity and the ultimate goal of every PVE player, but they need to get out of it, Mythic + is way more popular, and if raids can't keep players engaged then it's the raids that need to be changed/fixed.

If people don't wanna do raids, then the problem is the raid itself, not Mythic + or PVP. Blizzard devs should ask themselves: Why people don't wanna raid? Why do people think raids are not fun? Instead of... How can we make Mythic + less rewarding and enjoyable so people do raids?

We gotta adapt, the truth is that Mythic + is probably the activity that's keeping the most player subbed these days, without it, I'm sure the game would be in an even dire state. (Imagine if Pandaria or WOD had Mythic +)

Blizzard doesn't need to change something that's working (Mythic+ dungeons), they need to change what is not working (raids).

Ok, and any data that more players do M+ than raids? And that raids "don't work"? Because you base your entire reasoning on that.

[Makorus]

Mythic + is only a problem because Blizzard wants Raids to be the most rewarding activity and the ultimate goal of every PVE player, but they need to get out of it, Mythic + is way more popular, and if raids can't keep players engaged then it's the raids that need to be changed/fixed.

If people don't wanna do raids, then the problem is the raid itself, not Mythic + or PVP. Blizzard devs should ask themselves: Why people don't wanna raid? Why do people think raids are not fun? Instead of... How can we make Mythic + less rewarding and enjoyable so people do raids?

We gotta adapt, the truth is that Mythic + is probably the activity that's keeping the most player subbed these days, without it, I'm sure the game would be in an even dire state. (Imagine if Pandaria or WOD had Mythic +)

Blizzard doesn't need to change something that's working (Mythic+ dungeons), they need to change what is not working (raids).

Raid haven't been the most rewarding activity in a long time. That's the reason why stuff like Dominations sockets exist. Because if they didn't, then I would have not a single gear piece from Raids.

Outside of transmogs, there's pretty much no reason to do raids in the current state, because even trinkets from dungeons are more busted than raid ones.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

This idea that little to no reason to raid... just seems weird. Of course there's a purpose to go there. Maybe in your little circle it is but not the whole playerbase).

[Makabreska]

Raid haven't been the most rewarding activity in a long time. That's the reason why stuff like Dominations sockets exist. Because if they didn't, then I would have not a single gear piece from Raids.

Outside of transmogs, there's pretty much no reason to do raids in the current state, because even trinkets from dungeons are more busted than raid ones.

Ye sure pal. No reason, no rewards. Things like fun from beating the hardest content, or the bragging rights and feeling of accomplishment, or the gear that is actually not worse than M+ and is a slot by slot and spec by spec case. Y'all people not realizing that raiding has been carrying this game for years is like, I dunno...

[draugril]

Or, they could just increase raid drop rates so running them is actually worthwhile again instead of completely fucking over alternate progression systems?

Doing a whole raid should have a guaranteed item drop, at the very least.

And let's be frank, here - their systems are smart enough to know whether or not it is giving you a duplicate drop at this point. We may as well eliminate those, given the overall scarcity. Nothing feels worse than finally getting an item after two weeks of nothing, and it's something you already have.

[Raetary]

Ok, and any data that more players do M+ than raids?

You really don't need statistics for that.
M+ is objectively easier to get into and run than raiding is, its quicker, requires less players and significantly less preparation.

The feature is bound to be more popular simply based on that.
It also rewards you a ton more since its repeatable, whereas raids are a weekly activity.

[Makabreska]

You really don't need statistics for that.
M+ is objectively easier to get into and run than raiding is, its quicker, requires less players and significantly less preparation.
It also rewards you a ton more since its repeatable, whereas raids are a weekly activity.

The feature is bound to be more popular simply based on that.

Ok, and how much prep you need for LFR, the most popular raiding mode? Because you didn't remove it from the consideration, did you?

[Makorus]

Ye sure pal. No reason, no rewards. Things like fun from beating the hardest content, or the bragging rights and feeling of accomplishment, or the gear that is actually not worse than M+ and is a slot by slot and spec by spec case. Y'all people not realizing that raiding has been carrying this game for years is like, I dunno...

Yes. Enjoying raids is the only reason why anyone would do raids these days, which is why the game is bleeding like crazy.

There's a reason why twice the amount of people have KSM compared to Curve.

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Ok, and how much prep you need for LFR, the most popular raiding mode? Because you didn't remove it from the consideration, did you?

lmao actually bringing up LFR in your argument, whats the point?

[Makabreska]

Yes. Enjoying raids is the only reason why anyone would do raids these days, which is why the game is bleeding like crazy.

There's a reason why twice the amount of people have KSM compared to Curve.

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lmao actually bringing up LFR in your argument, whats the point?

Well, first you said transmog is the only reason, now you add the enjoyment. Progress!

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lmao actually bringing up LFR in your argument, whats the point?

Ok, so you don't want to bring LFR? Then we won't be bringing key runs below 10, because what's the point? You either bring a total raiding and M+ content, or you don't compare them at all, becuase then you start to cherry pick to better fit into your argument.

[Sondrelk]

Raiding has a very distinct advantage over dungeons. Each one is unique, and you get new ones all the time. Dungeons are shorter, and really only surpass raids in content at the very beginning of the expansion.
The raids are also where the story is primarily focused. It has unique cosmetics and mounts. And it's both more modular in difficulty than Dungeons while also being longer in format. So you get a combination of those interested in plot, those interested in cosmetics, and those interested in large format activities to do as a group.

A dungeon is less interesting in that sense. It really only has the competetive angle, and even then just really being better than raids in the sense that there is more variety from week to week, and also that it requires less people. Raids are still the high-water mark for prestigious content accepted by WoW players.

[Makorus]

Well, first you said transmog is the only reason, now you add the enjoyment. Progress!

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Ok, so you don;t want to bring LFR? Then we won't be bringing key runs below 10, because what's the point?

Yes, why would I bring up runs below 10? 15s are easily doable for anyone at like 220-230 ilvl, and they give Mythic SoD-level of gear. Which is where the whole issue comes from. The fact that at most you get two items of gear from raids (unless someone trades), and the fact that M+ pretty much gives you a welfare 252 piece for doing a +15 (it's not like you have to time it), disincentives raiding so hard.#


Heroic guild and low-prog Mythic guilds are slowly dying, and the ripple effect will be felt next expansion.

[Raetary]

Ok, and how much prep you need for LFR

None, just like M+2-10.
Which you can do at any time, on any day of the week, for the entire week, whereas LFR still is gated by the weekly reset.
(And taking LFR queues into account, signing up on for a low-key group will be a lot quicker)

Also, afaik LFR doesn't exactly have a different reward structure, so looting is the same as nomal and above. (in other words, its not any more rewarding)


And that's ignoring the primary purpose of LFR, to give people who aren't into organized raiding a chance to see the raid.
I wouldn't be surprised if its just a one and done thing for most players.

[micwini]

Yes. Enjoying raids is the only reason why anyone would do raids these days, which is why the game is bleeding like crazy.

There's a reason why twice the amount of people have KSM compared to Curve.

The reason is that it is twice as easy.

[Makabreska]

Yes, why would I bring up runs below 10? 15s are easily doable for anyone at like 220-230 ilvl, and they give Mythic SoD-level of gear. Which is where the whole issue comes from. The fact that at most you get two items of gear from raids (unless someone trades), and the fact that M+ pretty much gives you a welfare 252 piece for doing a +15 (it's not like you have to time it), disincentives raiding so hard.

Ye, M+ gives you Mythic raiding loot, ONCE PER WEEK. You wanna tell me that's a better gearing up process than raids? Well me and all my mates disagree looking at overall amount of loot we got. Not even mentioning you get such a bigger possibilities to pass loot in raids.

[Sondrelk]

None, just like M+2-10.
Which you can do at any time, on any day of the week, for the entire week, whereas LFR still is gated by the weekly reset.
(And taking LFR queues into account, signing up on for a low-key group will be a lot quicker)

Also, afaik LFR doesn't exactly have a different reward structure, so looting is the same as nomal and above.


And that's ignoring the primary purpose of LFR, to give people who aren't into organized raiding a chance to see the raid.
I wouldn't be surprised if its just a one and done thing for most players.

LFR does give unique rewards though. The gear gotten from it is different from the rest, which does mean it has replay value, and for more than those that just want a refresher on plot or to be challenged.
M+ is infinitely replayable, but also gives nothing that one might want other than strictly better gear. At best it gives some chance of farming for unique dungeon mounts, but nothing is really gained from playing M+ on several characters like it is with Raiding.

[Cosmic Janitor]

And that's ignoring the primary purpose of LFR, to give people who aren't into organized raiding a chance to see the raid.
I wouldn't be surprised if its just a one and done thing for most players.

The only people doing LFR consistently every week are transmog farmers and masochists. Maybe some that are absolutely desperate to participate FotP content like domination sockets.

[Makabreska]

None, just like M+2-10.
Which you can do at any time, on any day of the week, for the entire week, whereas LFR still is gated by the weekly reset.
(And taking LFR queues into account, signing up on for a low-key group will be a lot quicker)

Also, afaik LFR doesn't exactly have a different reward structure, so looting is the same as nomal and above. (in other words, its not any more rewarding)


And that's ignoring the primary purpose of LFR, to give people who aren't into organized raiding a chance to see the raid.
I wouldn't be surprised if its just a one and done thing for most players.

Well, LFR also can be done at any time w/o prep, queue times can be circumvented by going different role or inviting a buddy, you can get many other players to trade you loot and go higher diff for a higher ilvl loot table, some loot pieces are superior to what M+ gives etc.

But this is actually a fruitless discussion, because these two things should not be treated separately. They should be treated as an overall PvE content that complement each other and that you do do gear up and have fun.

[Nyel]

9.2 will be the jailer in a fight reminiscent of the lich king fight in a raid reminiscent of icecrown citadel

And we're getting help by Arthas to kill him...?

[Seasz]

in a raid reminiscent of icecrown citadel

We just raided Torghast...