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  1. #601
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except, I am not saying that. In fact, I have stated several times that I'm not saying that.
    So, you're not actually saying anything.

    Good to know!
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  2. #602
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    But, you have already stated that no law covers this, we're dealing with hypotheticals.
    Yes, that's what an "ought" argument is.

    Meanwhile, in this country, even hate speech is protected speech. So, the idea that one could successfully restrict most of this misinformation... is a pipe dream.
    There are plenty of counterexamples you're ignoring.

    Hate speech largely fails in the USA because the USA is a largely racist country, and always has been. Deliberately and intentionally so within living memory.

    That's not an argument on principles, just an argument that racists support racism.

    No, I've said it's a giant restriction on the First Amendment. You can disagree, but you don't get to change my argument.
    You've said you're fine with restrictions on the First Amendment.

    Now you don't.

    That's hypocrisy and why everyone is calling you out for it.

    Now, not only to I have the luxury of it currently being legal, I think you and I both know how the SCOTUS would rule on such things. So, I'm pretty content with my position.
    Literally no different an argument than a white racist in the early '60s saying that they had the "luxury" of blacks being second-class citizens and denying there was any chance they would ever be considered "people" equal to whites.

    And sure; they had SCOTUS backing them up at the time, too.

    It isn't a winning argument and it holds zero water.


  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    So, you're not actually saying anything.

    Good to know!
    No, you just keep ignoring what I'm saying, and pretending I'm saying something else. That's why you insist on editing out the parts you don't like.

  4. #604
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You're zipper is down.

    Ha, made you look. I guess that's harmful to you?
    Are you seriously comparing making someone look at their crotch to the impacts of anti-vaccination propaganda?

    Priorities. Most of us are capable of assessing what is actually harmful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes, that's what an "ought" argument is.



    There are plenty of counterexamples you're ignoring.

    Hate speech largely fails in the USA because the USA is a largely racist country, and always has been. Deliberately and intentionally so within living memory.

    That's not an argument on principles, just an argument that racists support racism.



    You've said you're fine with restrictions on the First Amendment.

    Now you don't.

    That's hypocrisy and why everyone is calling you out for it.



    Literally no different an argument than a white racist in the early '60s saying that they had the "luxury" of blacks being second-class citizens and denying there was any chance they would ever be considered "people" equal to whites.

    And sure; they had SCOTUS backing them up at the time, too.

    It isn't a winning argument and it holds zero water.
    Not only is it a racist country (like so many others), it's also a country that lauds free speech. Now, it may be weak on issues wih the press, but it is quite strong in its support of free speech itself.

    I said I'm fine with some restrictions to free speech. I'm not fine with this, because I don't consider a great deal of it harmful, and because we are dealing with hypotheticals on legislation that isn't even properly defined.

    It's not hypocrisy, it's a distinct lack of faith in people and their legislation.

    So, if you think you can stop misinformation in this manner, then I welcome you to try. Personally, I think it would fail, and I think it ought to fail.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Are you seriously comparing making someone look at their crotch to the impacts of anti-vaccination propaganda?

    Priorities. Most of us are capable of assessing what is actually harmful.
    You said misinformation is manifestly harmful. Do you want me to grab the quote?

  6. #606
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I said I'm fine with some restrictions to free speech. I'm not fine with this, because I don't consider a great deal of it harmful
    ITT: Machismo doesn't consider misinformation about COVID to be harmful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    ITT: Machismo doesn't consider misinformation about COVID to be harmful.
    Did I harm you with my zipper misinformation?

  8. #608
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You said misinformation is manifestly harmful. Do you want me to grab the quote?
    Sure, please point out where I said all misinformation is manifestly harmful.

    Again: why should it be protected speech?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #609
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Not only is it a racist country (like so many others), it's also a country that lauds free speech. Now, it may be weak on issues wih the press, but it is quite strong in its support of free speech itself.
    Not particularly in comparison with other developed nations, no. That's simply not true.

    Particularly as "issues with the press" is a key indicator.

    I said I'm fine with some restrictions to free speech. I'm not fine with this, because I don't consider a great deal of it harmful, and because we are dealing with hypotheticals on legislation that isn't even properly defined.
    And yet, you can't specify anything. Your only argument boils down to "you don't like a thing". No explanations as to why you don't.


  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Sure, please point out where I said all misinformation is manifestly harmful.
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/manifestly

    You said misinformation is manifestly harmful. Would you care to expound on your interpretation of that word?

  11. #611
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not particularly in comparison with other developed nations, no. That's simply not true.

    Particularly as "issues with the press" is a key indicator.
    To say nothing of pro-union or pro-social justice speech which has a history of being suppressed by the federal and state governments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You said misinformation is manifestly harmful. Would you care to expound on your interpretation of that word?
    So you can't actually point out where I said all misinformation is manifestly harmful, then.

    Stop avoiding the question: why should misinformation be considered protected speech?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not particularly in comparison with other developed nations, no. That's simply not true.

    Particularly as "issues with the press" is a key indicator.



    And yet, you can't specify anything. Your only argument boils down to "you don't like a thing". No explanations as to why you don't.
    And I don't see to many other nations cracking down on misinformation, certainly not in a manner like was being proposed around here.

    Sure, the Germans ban more hate speech, and Holocaust denial.

    Other countries ban insulting the crown, or the monarchy.

    But, I don't see too much more than that. The other poster brought up supposed talks between western nations about such legislation, but I never heard back from him on it.


    I specific plenty, like the fact that a great deal of it is based on some truths. I also pointed out that proving harm would be difficult.

  13. #613
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I specific plenty, like the fact that a great deal of it is based on some truths. I also pointed out that proving harm would be difficult.
    Both of which Endus debunked as false in the former and irrelevant in the latter case, so your specific counter is still nil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  14. #614
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You said misinformation is manifestly harmful. Do you want me to grab the quote?
    See COVID response in the USA, as compared to basically any other developed nation.

    The reason for the discrepancy can be nearly entirely put down to "misinformation". That's hundreds of thousands of deaths, let alone everything else.

    Canada, by comparison, has had 27,581 deaths from COVID-19. The USA, 680,000. Sure, Canada's a smaller country, but if we control for population, if we had comparable population figures, Canada's rate would only scale up to about 240,000 deaths. So that's, oh, 340,000 cases or so we can put down, in the USA, to "misinformation".

    And that's before we get into domestic terrorists and other extremists.


  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    To say nothing of pro-union or pro-social justice speech which has a history of being suppressed by the federal and state governments.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So you can't actually point out where I said all misinformation is manifestly harmful, then.

    Stop avoiding the question: why should misinformation be considered protected speech?
    You said misinformation is manifestly harmful.

    Which misinformation were you talking about?

    It should be protected speech, because I think it absurd to punish someone for saying your zipper is down, when it is in fact... not down. That is misinformation (assuming your zipper is not down).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Both of which Endus debunked as false in the former and irrelevant in the latter case, so your specific counter is still nil.
    And yet, proving harm, especially in the United States, has been shown to be difficult. The very lawsuits you provided even back me on that.

  16. #616
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    See COVID response in the USA, as compared to basically any other developed nation.

    The reason for the discrepancy can be nearly entirely put down to "misinformation". That's hundreds of thousands of deaths, let alone everything else.

    Canada, by comparison, has had 27,581 deaths from COVID-19. The USA, 680,000. Sure, Canada's a smaller country, but if we control for population, if we had comparable population figures, Canada's rate would only scale up to about 240,000 deaths. So that's, oh, 340,000 cases or so we can put down, in the USA, to "misinformation".

    And that's before we get into domestic terrorists and other extremists.
    > "I don't think misinformation should be banned because it's not harmful."
    > *provides examples of misinformation being harmful*
    > "Well SCOTUS will never agree to it so nyeh."

    It's like arguing with a fifth grader.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  17. #617
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You said misinformation is manifestly harmful.

    Which misinformation were you talking about?

    It should be protected speech, because I think it absurd to punish someone for saying your zipper is down, when it is in fact... not down. That is misinformation (assuming your zipper is not down).
    That's not misinformation.

    The comparison is willful dishonesty on your part.


  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And yet, proving harm, especially in the United States, has been shown to be difficult.
    Question: If you think all of these proposals are unfeasible nonstarters, exactly why are you getting so butthurt about something that in your view will never materialise?

    Are your enemies simultaneously too strong and too weak, perhaps?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  19. #619
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    > "I don't think misinformation should be banned because it's not harmful."
    > *provides examples of misinformation being harmful*
    > "Well SCOTUS will never agree to it so nyeh."

    It's like arguing with a fifth grader.
    It's exactly like arguing with a racist about anti-racism legislation.

    > "I don't think racism should be banned because they really are inferior."
    > *provides examples of how it's all bullshit*
    > "Well SCOTUS will never ban it so nyeh."
    > *US Civil Rights Act passed*
    > "Oh, shit."


  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    See COVID response in the USA, as compared to basically any other developed nation.

    The reason for the discrepancy can be nearly entirely put down to "misinformation". That's hundreds of thousands of deaths, let alone everything else.

    Canada, by comparison, has had 27,581 deaths from COVID-19. The USA, 680,000. Sure, Canada's a smaller country, but if we control for population, if we had comparable population figures, Canada's rate would only scale up to about 240,000 deaths. So that's, oh, 340,000 cases or so we can put down, in the USA, to "misinformation".

    And that's before we get into domestic terrorists and other extremists.
    There's also the fact that a very dense city got hit hard early, and the NE as a whole got obliterated.

    There's the fact that Americans didn't embrace masks and social distancing like other nations. Some of that may be misinformation, but plenty can be attributed to American machismo, willful ignorance, and just plain selfishness.

    As for Canada, it's death rate is about 1/3 of the United States, from what I see. There's also issues of population density. I'm not sure about comorbidities, I have no desire to look into the issue of obesity and other problems... because it's not really relevant.

    Now, as for misinformation, Americans see plenty of it. And, people are fucking gullible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Question: If you think all of these proposals are unfeasible nonstarters, exactly why are you getting so butthurt about something that in your view will never materialise?

    Are your enemies simultaneously too strong and too weak, perhaps?
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

    Considering I just had Trump and the GOP in power, pushing ethno-nationalism and fascism... I known not to ignore those who seek to legislate their will over me.

    Do I think there's very little political capital to pull something like this off? Yes. Do I think it's impossible? Nope.

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