Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Draco-Onis]

Without ever having established the need for such a government, and that is still a billion dollars that could be spent on literally anything else.

Sending money to an apartheid state that is more than capable of looking to its own defenses while millions of Americans are suffering in practice is, again, irresponsible and stupid.

The entire American foreign policy is centered around irresponsibility and stupidity, all you have to do is look at our immigration policy. We are deporting people in mass who are fleeing because we turned their country into a shit hole through meddling.

[Easo]

Better than what was going on in Europe at the time.

But but but Muslim states did not have it so bad!

Pathetic, Elegiac, pathetic. Also, which time, exactly? It's a quite long history, you know? More than a millenia.

really showing their hand trying to downplay European pogroms.... yeah we need a Jewish state, over there, NOT HERE!

I love your imagination about who downplays what.
You are aware that pogroms against Jews did not happen only in Europe? Also, how does pogroms happening in Europe makes better whatever shitty things Ottoman empire and others did?

[Elegiac]

But but but Muslim states did not have it so bad!

Again: in general, they did compared to Europe. Hell, as said the only reason Israel exists is because of European antisemitism.

I get why you lot are so eager to try and cast this conflict as being ancient in origin so you can perpetuate the belief that it's "an insoluble clash of civilizations" for Reasons* (*wahhh, Syrian refugees are scawwy and pretending they're all potential terrorists with an incompatible culture means we don't have to accept them ) but the reality is this conflict is the result of British colonial policies in the last century and is little older than that.

[Easo]

Again: in general, they did compared to Europe. Hell, as said the only reason Israel exists is because of European antisemitism.

I get why you lot are so eager to try and cast this conflict as being ancient in origin so you can perpetuate the belief that it's "an insoluble clash of civilizations" for Reasons* (*wahhh, Syrian refugees are scawwy and pretending they're all potential terrorists with an incompatible culture means we don't have to accept them ) but the reality is this conflict is the result of British colonial policies in the last century and is little older than that.

I love how you mix fear of refugees and British Empire's shenanigans into this. Fascinating.
P.S.
And yet, no one has ever given a reasonable answer as to where, exactly, Jewish state should have been made if current location was to be impossible.

[Mihalik]

I love how you mix fear of refugees and British Empire's shenanigans into this. Fascinating.
P.S.
And yet, no one has ever given a reasonable answer as to where, exactly, Jewish state should have been made if current location was to be impossible.

Most critics of Israel do not actually contest the necessity of an Israeli state, on the contrary support it.

But you can both support the right of the Jewish people to self determination and self defense, and also simultaneously recognize that the current incarnation of that Israel is morally unacceptable.

The right to a Jewish state cannot come at the expense of the equal rights of the Palestinian population.

The gradual expansion of the Israeli state far beyond the areas originally allocated to it, and the apartheid state practices it engages in to further that expansion are unacceptable.

We are denying the right to self determination and self defense to an entire nation (Palestine) to benefit another (Israel).

There's an obvious and gross double standard here.

[Elegiac]

I love how you mix fear of refugees and British Empire's shenanigans into this. Fascinating.

Largely because the former is a significant motivating factor in the recent spike in European Islamophobia, and the latter is the direct cause of the Israel/Palestine conflict.

And yet, no one has ever given a reasonable answer as to where, exactly, Jewish state should have been made if current location was to be impossible.

Nowhere, because ethnostates are fucking stupid.

The correct solution was "Europeans stop being antisemitic challenge" not "displace Palestinians so we don't have to live next to Jewish people".

- - - Updated - - -

Most critics of Israel do not actually contest the necessity of an Israeli state, on the contrary support it.

I don't, for the same reason Liberia was not necessary.

Again, ethnonationalism is stupid.

[uuuhname]

The correct solution was "Europeans stop being antisemitic challenge" not "displace Palestinians so we don't have to live next to Jewish people".

but you forget, it's really important for there to be a "democratic" state in the middle east that's just so happens to be in the pocket of the west. which is funny considering what the west got up to in Iran... if the goal here was fostering democracy in the region.

[Mihalik]

I don't, for the same reason Liberia was not necessary.

Again, ethnonationalism is stupid.

The situation of African-Americans is not comparable to historic situation of Jews.

The problem Jews always had beside the discrimination was that they were very frequently territorially displaced (African Americans suffered displacement too in various way, but still different than what happened to Jewish populations). Jewish populations have been ping ponged across the whole of Europe/North Africa/Central Asia for millenia depending on the political ebbs and flows. Sometimes nations would simply decide to murder/displace their entire Jewish populations on some nonsensical whim. Literally hundreds of thousands of people sent packing overnight, being forced to migrate to whichever area that was mildly less anti-semitic at that moment, just to rinse and repeat in a few decades/centuries.

The much touted Islamic tolerance towards Jews was just as arbitrary as the European one. Different Sultans, Caliphs, Emirs etc could swing from fully friendly to utterly hostile within a generation.

Then Nazi Germany happened, at that raised the question...What the fuck do you as a people, when an entire continent collectively decides to murder you or is unable to do anything to stop it, what do you do when there's nowhere else left to go, and when even crossing an ocean won't protect you because people there won't let you in (note the US systematically refused to take in Jewish refugees before the war and during its early stages, even when Congress specifically allocated quotas accepting certain numbers, not even 1/10 of those quotas was ever fulfilled). https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...tory-holocaust

It's easy to say that the world needs to stop being anti-semitic. But that's much akin to saying the world needs to stop being racist, nationalistic, tribal, ethnocentric. Good fucking luck with that. In that context it's hard to tell an entire people that "Well, you guys just need to sit tight, fingers crossed and hope for no Holocaust 2".

- - - Updated - - -

but you forget, it's really important for there to be a "democratic" state in the middle east that's just so happens to be in the pocket of the west. which is funny considering what the west got up to in Iran... if the goal here was fostering democracy in the region.

The fact that Israel is a "democracy" is just a convenient coincidence. If Israel would become a full on Jewish kritarchy (the form of government Israel would adopt if it went full theocracy), absolute monarchy, fascist dictatorship it wouldn't matter.

The only thing that could possibly complicated US-Israeli relations is if Israel would go full on communist or whatnot.

[Themius]

https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-r...n-dome-1632385

Such a shame the US house has only like 8 decent members



Why pay for it when the US loves Israel so much even the ""Progressives" will help you fund whatever you need? Some states even have laws against boycotting Isreal.

Try most

[Elegiac]

The situation of African-Americans is not comparable to historic situation of Jews.

The belief that the irreconcilability of demography (a nonsense belief on the face of it) necessitates setting up a state somewhere else certainly is.

It's easy to say that the world needs to stop being anti-semitic. But that's much akin to saying the world needs to stop being racist, nationalistic, tribal, ethnocentric.

Which it does, and won't be achieved by continuing to give credence to ethnonationalist talking points which is what Zionism fundamentally is.

Moreover, the existence of Israel has neither stopped antisemitism nor has it apparently made the people residing there feel safer; what it's done is turned into a microcosm of Russia wherein all surrounding territory and people need to be subjugated as a buffer. See also: the Dominion in DS9.

Try most

Socialism for Israel but not for thee.

[ranzino]

I love how you mix fear of refugees and British Empire's shenanigans into this. Fascinating.
P.S.
And yet, no one has ever given a reasonable answer as to where, exactly, Jewish state should have been made if current location was to be impossible.

to be honest: nowhere since the Siege of Jerusalem by the roman empire. the jewish state fell ~2000 years ago

[Shadowferal]

Tahiti
It's a magical place, or so I've heard.

[Fuiking]

to be honest: nowhere since the Siege of Jerusalem by the roman empire. the jewish state fell ~2000 years ago

Werent there plans to force jews to migrate to Madagascar?

[ranzino]

Werent there plans to force jews to migrate to Madagascar?

basically anywhere but "Jerusalem and surrounding area"; the ideas were weird all the time

[Easo]

Largely because the former is a significant motivating factor in the recent spike in European Islamophobia, and the latter is the direct cause of the Israel/Palestine conflict.


Nowhere, because ethnostates are fucking stupid.

The correct solution was "Europeans stop being antisemitic challenge" not "displace Palestinians so we don't have to live next to Jewish people".


I don't, for the same reason Liberia was not necessary.

Again, ethnonationalism is stupid.

Always someone else to blame, always. Also can be noted it is the West, which regularly receives the blame from you. Hmm...

Ah, thanks, good to know my country is fucking stupid. Hey, Baltic brothers, our 20th century struggles were stupid!


Hey, Jews? Screw your two thousand year Aliyah! It's stupid, Elegiac said so!

Werent there plans to force jews to migrate to Madagascar?

That was cooked up by Nazi Germany and pretty much an idiotic and impossible idea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

basically anywhere but "Jerusalem and surrounding area"; the ideas were weird all the time

Indeed, besides Madagascar I heard of a Zanzibar scheme and some in Latin America as well. And then Stalin did create the Jewish Autonomous Oblast next to Manchuria, but it only had meager success, AFAIK it is the only place in the world with Yiddish as an official language.

[Elegiac]

Always someone else to blame, always.

Maybe because it's a known fact that the British are directly responsible for this conflict.

Also can be noted it is the West, which regularly receives the blame from you.

Gee, couldn't possibly be because the West's preponderance since 1500 has put them in a position to be committing most of the atrocities.

Maybe don't commit humanitarian crimes if you don't want to get blamed for them?

Ah, thanks, good to know my country is fucking stupid. Hey, Baltic brothers, our 20th century struggles were stupid!

Yeah, it's not like ethnonationalism plunged the world into two highly destructive wars within 50 years and handed the global reins over to the US or anything. /s

Hey, Jews? Screw your two thousand year Aliyah! It's stupid, Elegiac said so!

"Two thousand year Aliyah" what a crock.

As said, the state of Israel's roots go no further than the colonial period.

[Easo]

Maybe because it's a known fact that the British are directly responsible for this conflict.



Gee, couldn't possibly be because the West's preponderance since 1500 has put them in a position to be committing most of the atrocities.

Maybe don't commit humanitarian crimes if you don't want to get blamed for them?

Alternative history and the modern "West is bad" approach coming from a Westerner. Pretty much everything is clear about you.
P.S.
Funny, suddenly not a word about calling countries stupid.

[Elegiac]

Alternative history

Are you seriously disputing the existence of the British Mandate of Palestine? That's bold.

and the modern "West is bad" approach coming from a Westerner. Pretty much everything is clear about you.

Yeah it's just so disgraceful that someone might find imperialism and humanitarian crimes to be objectionable.

[uuuhname]

Alternative history and the modern "West is bad" approach coming from a Westerner. Pretty much everything is clear about you.
P.S.
Funny, suddenly not a word about calling countries stupid.

dude, simply admitting you despise any critical analysis of world history would be less embarrassing than this. like, at least attempt to refute what people are saying.