Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[kaminaris]

WoW became p2w the second tokens were introduced.

No. It has either been always P2W or never P2W, token didnt change anything. Depending on your definition.
Middle man isn't included in either, because why bother even converting to token when you can buy directly.

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For the 400th time, the term "pay to win" does not require "winning", but rather gaining an advantage.

And you still don't gain any advantage because you already lost, by the time anyone would be willing to boost you.

[masterhorus8]

Bastardized? So all the definitions online that dont agree with what you say are wrong, and your personal, and vastly different definition is the right one?

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For the 400th time, the term "pay to win" does not require "winning", but rather gaining an advantage.

What advantage? The same gear that others already have to have for you to get yours? The same gear that the people carrying can't get through the same method because there's no one to do it for them?

Because as far as I can tell, the people paying have 0 advantage over the people boosting them.

[arkanon]

And you still don't gain any advantage because you already lost, by the time anyone would be willing to boost you.

No one said gain an advantage over "everyone" - did you think thats what it means?

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What advantage? The same gear that others already have to have for you to get yours? The same gear that the people carrying can't get through the same method because there's no one to do it for them?

Again, read above - nothing and noone said you gain an advantage over EVERYONE.

[kaminaris]

No one said gain an advantage over "everyone" - did you think thats what it means?

If you change that word in your definition to 'anyone' then every single game in entire history of humankind would become P2W.

[arkanon]

If you change that word in your definition to 'anyone' then every single game in entire history of humankind would become P2W.

How so? What do you mean by this?

This really isnt difficult to understand. Two players start the game for the first time ever, lets use classic as an example. One person pays to boost their toon to 58, one does not. Are you seriously claiming that the person who paid to boost has not gained an advantage over the person who didnt? Who would win in a dual 5 minutes into their playtime?

To ensure we are comparing apples to apples, the two players are identical in every way - who will get to endgame content first? Who will gear up faster?

[masterhorus8]

No one said gain an advantage over "everyone" - did you think thats what it means?

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Again, read above - nothing and noone said you gain an advantage over EVERYONE.

Then it's not p2w. No one gained an advantage over me by paying.

There, simple.

[Schmittay]

Bastardized? So all the definitions online that dont agree with what you say are wrong, and your personal, and vastly different definition is the right one?

Gee if only I could make up definitions for words and say, well hey that's just YOUR opinion.

[arkanon]

Then it's not p2w. No one gained an advantage over me by paying.

There, simple.

Again, no one said "to gain an advantage over @masterhorus8". but what about other players? Have they gained an advantage over anyone?

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Gee if only I could make up definitions for words and say, well hey that's just YOUR opinion.

This is nonsensical - are you trying to say that phrases and sayings can only equal the literal definitions of each of its words? You must understand that never has been and never will be how the English language works, right?

[TheRevenantHero]

Gee if only I could make up definitions for words and say, well hey that's just YOUR opinion.

the widely accepted definition of p2w is using real money to buy power. Whether that be currency, gear, or straight up power like the level boosts. Whenever any other game other than WoW is mentioned, it's called p2w. But suddenly it stops being p2w when it's WoW.

[masterhorus8]

Again, no one said "to gain an advantage over @masterhorus8". but what about other players? Have they gained an advantage over anyone?

No one gives a shit about the squabbles between noobs.

Again, if someone didn't get an advantage over me even though they paid real money, then it's not p2w. Simple as that.

Glad we could clear that up.

EDIT: Also, why can't I benefit from this p2w? I thought I could gain an advantage if I paid money? Oh? No one has won yet to give me the leftovers? Bummer... I thought I could get an advantage by paying...

[arkanon]

Whenever any other game other than WoW is mentioned, it's called p2w. But suddenly it stops being p2w when it's WoW.

This is the part that blows my mind every time this topic comes up - WoW seems to be entirely unique in that things considered P2W in ANY other game, are not considered P2W in wow. The definition gets so twisted and warped beyond what is commonly accepted that by the end of a few pages, there is literally no game that meets the new definition.

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No one gives a shit about the squabbles between noobs.

Again, if someone didn't get an advantage over me even though they paid real money, then it's not p2w. Simple as that.

Glad we could clear that up.

So if someone kills someone else its not murder, because they didnt murder you. Glad we cleared that up.

[kaminaris]

How so? What do you mean by this?

This really isnt difficult to understand. Two players start the game for the first time ever, lets use classic as an example. One person pays to boost their toon to 58, one does not. Are you seriously claiming that the person who paid to boost has not gained an advantage over the person who didnt? Who would win in a dual 5 minutes into their playtime?

To ensure we are comparing apples to apples, the two players are identical in every way - who will get to endgame content first? Who will gear up faster?

There is nothing here to understand. Its simply a logical fallacy.

By your definition chess is pay 2 win because if one of two equally skilled players uses drugs for concentration he gains the advantage over second guy.
But in reality he will still be no match for top world players even with drugs on. Also drugs are bad m'kay.

The difference here is that people have different win conditions in wow and in terms of pvp - you will lose every time. PvE? Nobody is going to boost you on world first race. So by my definition you have lost no matter how much money you would pour into.

You will not gain any advantage over rather sizable playerbase anyways even with boosts. So you are comparing losers to losers.


BUT if your win condition is getting highest achievement points, largest collections of mounts/pets then wow was always pay to win.

[masterhorus8]

This is the part that blows my mind every time this topic comes up - WoW seems to be entirely unique in that things considered P2W in ANY other game, are not considered P2W in wow. The definition gets so twisted and warped beyond what is commonly accepted that by the end of a few pages, there is literally no game that meets the new definition.

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So if someone kills someone else its not murder, because they didnt murder you. Glad we cleared that up.

lmao, nice job with the shitty goalpost change with using a word that already has a definition.

If you want to use your shitty analogy, then yes, I can still murder someone even if I can't be murdered.

But I can't p2w.

EDIT: You can't claim "different definitions of winning" if you're using the same scale of winning that someone else already won by. You're only looking at things in a vacuum.
"Ha, I'm a higher gs than you!" But someone else is already higher than you. You didn't gain an advantage over that person. Idc if you're judging it to someone else. You're using the metric of "being geared" and just cherry picking your field of view to ignore the people that you're losing to and didn't gain an advantage over.

[arkanon]

lmao, nice job with the shitty goalpost change with using a word that already has a definition.

I havnt moved the goalposts in over 100 pages.

But i find it interesting that you have formed a VERY strong opinion about whether the game or its features are P2W, and yet have claimed P2W lacks a definition? If it has no definition, how can it be P2W or not P2W?

I dont classify WoW as a P2W game, although it absolutely does have P2W features.
Other games absolutely have far more egregious implementation of P2W features, some to the extent that i consider the game to be P2W.
I also consider some P2W features to be positive overall for a game - the TBC boost is an example of this.

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There is nothing here to understand. Its simply a logical fallacy.

By your definition chess is pay 2 win because if one of two equally skilled players uses drugs for concentration he gains the advantage over second guy.

Accusing someone of a logical fallacy, and then confusing PED use with P2W? Big yikes. HUGE yikes. I would be interested in knowing WHICH logical fallacy you believe i committed?

[Stabbyfists]

So you can buy a carry. So what? You still have to go through the raid, right? You can't just sit outside the entrance, logged in, while the group does all the work, right? So you still have to spend the same amount of time whether you're going through the raid the first time or if you're being carried through it. It's not like there's a button you press when you log in that delivers all the gold and loot you would get to your inbox, ready to use.

It's almost like you're so caught up in your narrative that you can't think logically and realize the truth.

You do realize carry groups have you DIE at the start of the fight as to not impede their ability to carry right?

[TheRevenantHero]

No one gives a shit about the squabbles between noobs.

Again, if someone didn't get an advantage over me even though they paid real money, then it's not p2w. Simple as that.

Glad we could clear that up.

EDIT: Also, why can't I benefit from this p2w? I thought I could gain an advantage if I paid money? Oh? No one has won yet to give me the leftovers? Bummer... I thought I could get an advantage by paying...

Are you really incapable of seeing why something like the level boost isn't a form of pay to win?

[masterhorus8]

Are you really incapable of seeing why something like the level boost isn't a form of pay to win?

Are really incapable of seeing why reaching max level faster doesn't matter? That's only the journey. That's not the content.

EDIT: Someone please ping me when reaching max level is the goal of the game...

Also, kekw, trying to compare a boost to level 50 as hitting max level. My bad...

[TheRevenantHero]

You do realize carry groups have you DIE at the start of the fight as to not impede their ability to carry right?

I've had friends help me get end of expansion mounts. They typically always tell people not helping with the carry to die at the start of the fight so as not to step in mechanics that will wipe the raid.

[Chumahki]

No, it's not.

[arkanon]

You do realize carry groups have you DIE at the start of the fight as to not impede their ability to carry right?

I decided not to jump in when i read that earlier, but found it very strange - like they have obviously never bought or sold a run before. Thats not a bad thing at all, no hate WHATSOEVER, but it does mean someone MAYBE shouldn't be making such statements about something they clearly lack any understanding of.