Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[TheRevenantHero]

Are really incapable of seeing why reaching max level faster doesn't matter? That's only the journey. That's not the content.

Except....it DOES matter. The faster you are to max level, the faster you get into endgame content. You have a clear advantage over people NOT spending money on a level boost.

[arkanon]

I've had friends help me get end of expansion mounts. They typically always tell people not helping with the carry to die at the start of the fight so as not to step in mechanics that will wipe the raid.

Correct - its FAR worse on some fights than others - anything where anyone gets a link to another player, has to run something somewhere - anything that is randomly applied to a player tbh - its just not worth the risk. They are purchasing the run for a reason. I remember a lock not listening, and even rezzing one of the other carries who did die at the start as requested, and they went on to wipe the raid - it wasnt a big deal, but its the reason people ask the carries to just die and stay dead.

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Except....it DOES matter. The faster you are to max level, the faster you get into endgame content. You have a clear advantage over people NOT spending money on a level boost.

Sadly, they will twist everything until "eventually they will catch up" or "well they cant buy world first so its not p2w because they didnt win"

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No, it's not.

Considering you recently said this:

I'll pay a sub till the end of time.

Im not particularly surprised that you would defend the game at all costs. This level of fanaticism is the reason a calm and level headed discussion about the game is almost impossible - there are a few users who i can agree with on one subject, and strongly disagree on another and thats really good, but when im confronted with this degree of fanaticism there is no real discussion to be had.

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EDIT: You can't claim "different definitions of winning" if you're using the same scale of winning that someone else already won by. You're only looking at things in a vacuum.
"Ha, I'm a higher gs than you!" But someone else is already higher than you. You didn't gain an advantage over that person. Idc if you're judging it to someone else. You're using the metric of "being geared" and just cherry picking your field of view to ignore the people that you're losing to and didn't gain an advantage over.

As i have said many, MANY times - the definition of P2W does NOT include "winning". It is a colloquialism, not a scientific definition, or any other formal communication.

[TheRevenantHero]

Correct - its FAR worse on some fights than others - anything where anyone gets a link to another player, has to run something somewhere - anything that is randomly applied to a player tbh - its just not worth the risk. They are purchasing the run for a reason. I remember a lock not listening, and even rezzing one of the other carries who did die at the start as requested, and they went on to wipe the raid - it wasnt a big deal, but its the reason people ask the carries to just die and stay dead.

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Sadly, they will twist everything until "eventually they will catch up" or "well they cant buy world first so its not p2w because they didnt win"

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Considering you recently said this:



Im not particularly surprised that you would defend the game at all costs. This level of fanaticism is the reason a calm and level headed discussion about the game is almost impossible - there are a few users who i can agree with on one subject, and strongly disagree on another and thats really good, but when im confronted with this degree of fanaticism there is no real discussion to be had.

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As i have said many, MANY times - the definition of P2W does NOT include "winning". It is a colloquialism, not a scientific definition, or any other formal communication.

They KNOW it doesn't mean actual winning but they won't say it out loud because then they'd have to say something negative about the game in their eyes.

[hzjf]

NO

you cannot buy the best gear

you can buy a boost which gives you a CHANCE at getting some of the best gear

[sensei]

Except....it DOES matter. The faster you are to max level, the faster you get into endgame content. You have a clear advantage over people NOT spending money on a level boost.

Except, that if you are a garbage player, you are still a garbage player at max level. You can't buy skill, and the 5 seconds longer you can stand in the fire versus someone who doesn't have your gear but actually knows how to play the game (and not stand in the fire to begin with) won't make up for the fact that you probably won't get invited to many groups. And if you do, you probably will end up getting kicked and never invited back.

[Femininity]

NO

you cannot buy the best gear

you can buy a boost which gives you a CHANCE at getting some of the best gear

You can buy weekly boosts until you're full BiS. Cost prohibitive? Depends on who you ask. Doesn't mean you can't buy the best gear.

[Boiled-Lobster]

Easier way to resolve this thread is to ask ourselves, which game anno 2021 isn't pay to win?

[arkanon]

Easier way to resolve this thread is to ask ourselves, which game anno 2021 isn't pay to win?

I have said this a few times, but I think the more honest question to ask is "which games in 2021 dont have one or more P2W features". Personally, and this part is entirely subjective, I believe a game can incorporate some minor P2W features without the game itself deserving the label of P2W.

[kaminaris]

I havnt moved the goalposts in over 100 pages.

But i find it interesting that you have formed a VERY strong opinion about whether the game or its features are P2W, and yet have claimed P2W lacks a definition? If it has no definition, how can it be P2W or not P2W?

I dont classify WoW as a P2W game, although it absolutely does have P2W features.
Other games absolutely have far more egregious implementation of P2W features, some to the extent that i consider the game to be P2W.
I also consider some P2W features to be positive overall for a game - the TBC boost is an example of this.

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Accusing someone of a logical fallacy, and then confusing PED use with P2W? Big yikes. HUGE yikes. I would be interested in knowing WHICH logical fallacy you believe i committed?

Are you even serious? I have told you multiple times, you are comparing losers to losers, that is one. Second you claim you can get the advantage using real money and then you completely disregard "winning condition".

Can you gain advantage paying money over Stranglethorn Fishing Extravaganza? Nope. Can you gain advantage over gingi in highest key done? Nope. Can you gain access to MDI or PVP tournament and win there with money? Nope.


You can't use "anyone" in your definition.

"Anyone" can be someone who plays with one hand which was already at disadvantage (but yeah you GAINED even more advantage over him buy buying boosts).
"Everyone" implies you would be able to top most skilled and most dedicated players.
"Specific person" is also not an option.

so the only logical term would be "more skilled players" (at least in wow realm). And the answer to that question is no.

But then again this is only with assumption we are talking about "typical" pvp/pve content.
In terms like having highest mounts you would most certainly need to resort to paying in order to gain advantage.

And token didn't change anything btw.

[arkanon]

Are you even serious? I have told you multiple times, you are comparing losers to losers, that is one. Second you claim you can get the advantage using real money and then you completely disregard "winning condition".

Can you gain advantage paying money over Stranglethorn Fishing Extravaganza? Nope. Can you gain advantage over gingi in highest key done? Nope. Can you gain access to MDI or PVP tournament and win there with money? Nope.


You can't use "anyone" in your definition.

"Anyone" can be someone who plays with one hand which was already at disadvantage (but yeah you GAINED even more advantage over him buy buying boosts).
"Everyone" implies you would be able to top most skilled and most dedicated players.
"Specific person" is also not an option.

so the only logical term would be "more skilled players" (at least in wow realm). And the answer to that question is no.

But then again this is only with assumption we are talking about "typical" pvp/pve content.
In terms like having highest mounts you would most certainly need to resort to paying in order to gain advantage.

And token didn't change anything btw.

What "winning condition"? Seriously what on earth are you talking about? And I never mentioned the token, another huge "wtf?"

[Femininity]

I love the folks in this thread arguing that, since Rank 1 and World First kills aren't on the table, WoW is therefore not pay-to-win.

[Darkeon]

I have said this a few times, but I think the more honest question to ask is "which games in 2021 dont have one or more P2W features". Personally, and this part is entirely subjective, I believe a game can incorporate some minor P2W features without the game itself deserving the label of P2W.

I disagree; I think then the situation simply turns into what is acceptable or of how severe it is, not whether it is P2W or not.

[arkanon]

I disagree; I think then the situation simply turns into what is acceptable or of how severe it is, not whether it is P2W or not.

If a football team has one violent player, you say "that player is violent". If a football team has 9 violent players, you are far, far more likely to say "that team is violent".

I apply the same logic with games - if it has 1 or 2 minor systems that grant an advantage to those paying, I will say "that feature is clearly p2w", while if a game is based around countless p2w features, and the business model is based around those features, I am far, far more likely to say "that game is p2w".

Don't mind if you disagree, I understand your pov as well.

[TheRevenantHero]

Except, that if you are a garbage player, you are still a garbage player at max level. You can't buy skill, and the 5 seconds longer you can stand in the fire versus someone who doesn't have your gear but actually knows how to play the game (and not stand in the fire to begin with) won't make up for the fact that you probably won't get invited to many groups. And if you do, you probably will end up getting kicked and never invited back.

And whether or not someone is a terrible player is utterly irrelevant. And "garbage players" are the only ones who benefit from level boosts. Hardcore raiders use them too. The point isn't whether or not someone is a good player or not. The point is that the level boost gives them an advantage.

[Boiled-Lobster]

Technically a game in which you can buy its currency is labeled pay to win,

Thus to say so, buying a token for In-game currrency in order to use that currency is pay to win.

however, in the case of WoW it is different, given the auction house has always been there. given current community standards, WoW has been pay to win since it's launch?

Of course, having a in-game economy is something entirely different. but there always have been gold sellers, and tokens were merely invented to counter the black market as they seemingly had difficulties banning the right persons behind gold sellers.

[TheRevenantHero]

Are you even serious? I have told you multiple times, you are comparing losers to losers, that is one. Second you claim you can get the advantage using real money and then you completely disregard "winning condition".

Can you gain advantage paying money over Stranglethorn Fishing Extravaganza? Nope. Can you gain advantage over gingi in highest key done? Nope. Can you gain access to MDI or PVP tournament and win there with money? Nope.


You can't use "anyone" in your definition.

"Anyone" can be someone who plays with one hand which was already at disadvantage (but yeah you GAINED even more advantage over him buy buying boosts).
"Everyone" implies you would be able to top most skilled and most dedicated players.
"Specific person" is also not an option.

so the only logical term would be "more skilled players" (at least in wow realm). And the answer to that question is no.

But then again this is only with assumption we are talking about "typical" pvp/pve content.
In terms like having highest mounts you would most certainly need to resort to paying in order to gain advantage.

And token didn't change anything btw.

If you are going to base your definition of pay to win solely on "winning" that game, then there isn't a single p2w MMO. Because there is no beating of an MMO like WoW. So saying it's not p2w simply because there's no win condition is a fallacy.

[kaminaris]

What "winning condition"? Seriously what on earth are you talking about? And I never mentioned the token, another huge "wtf?"

You need to have a sort of measurement of success in order to either gain advantage or win. Does that concept eluded you for so long?

[exochaft]

I disagree; I think then the situation simply turns into what is acceptable or of how severe it is, not whether it is P2W or not.

I think that's where the definition of P2W needs to be defined, as it's fairly nebulous in many people's minds.

For me, P2W generally means paying additional real money to gain an advantage or power gain over those who do not. As such with WoW, someone paying gold to get a boost or carry or buy some mega item in a game is not pay to win unless the player spends real money to shortcut the gold-making process (aka, the person is paying extra money for a time advantage). This is the supposed basis behind why RMT and gold selling are supposed to be against the spirit of the game (and are ToS violations). However, the WoW token just is a non-ToS violating method of performing the same actions that are against the spirit of the game... but since Blizz gets a cut it's all fine and dandy.

If you have issues with boosting, that's another design issue surrounding the state/quality of the game. The boosting community profits off the P2W, and their growth is actually a symptom of P2W as well as other issues with the game.

[kaminaris]

If you are going to base your definition of pay to win solely on "winning" that game, then there isn't a single p2w MMO. Because there is no beating of an MMO like WoW. So saying it's not p2w simply because there's no win condition is a fallacy.

It's logic, not a fallacy. Try thinking about it. My "definition" consists of a set of all possible success measurements, even those which I did not think of. Thus I did say: wow is either P2W from the beginning or was never a p2w.

[arkanon]

You need to have a sort of measurement of success in order to either gain advantage or win. Does that concept eluded you for so long?

Let me ask you this. In classic wow, two people start the game. One purchases the level 58 boost, the other does not. 5 minutes in, they dual - does either player have an advantage?

*Bolts goalposts to the ground so they can't be moved*