Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Darkeon]

You don’t ”Win” anything by paying.

You are still limited by the same raid or vault RnG as every one else.

When they start selling gear boxes from store, Then we might call it P2W.

But currently? I don’t think so.

What are you "winning" when those gear boxes get available?

[kaminaris]

It's always been pay-to-win by your criteria, only officially so with the inclusion of the WoW token.

Yes if your measurement of success is getting gear then you are right. Tho my criteria consists of all possible scenarios of measurements and in some of them it simply isn't (as you won't get boosted on race to world first). In short: it depends on what you see as "win".

Token merely enables safe money laundering.

[Femininity]

"Winning" is a semantic, arbitrary distinction. Paying for a desired outcome, whatever that outcome may be, is the determining factor.

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Yes if your measurement of success is getting gear then you are right. Tho my criteria consists of all possible scenarios of measurements and in some of them it simply isn't (as you won't get boosted on race to world first). In short: it depends on what you see as "win".

Token merely enables safe money laundering.

Paying to circumvent time-gated or effort-bound rewards is fundamental to a pay-to-win structure.

[Ashleyxoxo]

Ahh, the "is X game p2w?" thread, topped only by the "is X game dying?" threads.

[Lochton]

Touché lmao.

No, boosting has gotten so extremely convenient (i'd even say professional at this point) that you can buy a ton of character power via the WoW token.
Being 2 instead of 1 step doesn't change that imo.

Indeed, but boosting has been an issue since Vanilla, heck, so has the purchase of currency.

In this deep and boorish conversation of it being P2W or not, the only thing I can directly, yet lamely so, agree with - is the store boost, but only barely. You aren't winning anything, you can't catch up on current content with it, nor reach the same level as others right off the bat. You just pay to be able to play the current content, an option that has become so common in MMORPGs that a majority of the providers have them.

[sam86]

So you can buy a carry. So what? You still have to go through the raid, right? You can't just sit outside the entrance, logged in, while the group does all the work, right? So you still have to spend the same amount of time whether you're going through the raid the first time or if you're being carried through it. It's not like there's a button you press when you log in that delivers all the gold and loot you would get to your inbox, ready to use.

It's almost like you're so caught up in your narrative that you can't think logically and realize the truth.

literally the only difference between ur scenario and actual money-to-token bought boost is he just sit inside, he still doesn't have to do anything at all, just enter raid, go to every boss room, wait for loot
so because he sits outside in other games, it is P2W, here isn't, even if he still got all that gear and items using real hard cold cash instead of actually playing? Or are raids now designed around buying boosts so this is the normal way and i didn't know?
Literally ppl who played classic for 16 years on private stopped playing it on classic servers because it is boost infested instead of actual ppl playing, they left the OFFICIAL server back to private servers because official servers are pure p2w while (ironic) private servers don't have p2w (or more accurate p2 buy boosts) so ppl actually have to join guilds to play instead of just use their already insanely high income to buy boost from chineese gold farmers/boosters

[Lochton]

Technically a game in which you can buy its currency is labeled pay to win,

Thus to say so, buying a token for In-game currrency in order to use that currency is pay to win.

however, in the case of WoW it is different, given the auction house has always been there. given current community standards, WoW has been pay to win since it's launch?

Of course, having a in-game economy is something entirely different. but there always have been gold sellers, and tokens were merely invented to counter the black market as they seemingly had difficulties banning the right persons behind gold sellers.

Basically the basics of some of the thread, either it's been P2W the whole time, or it ain't, if we talk currency.

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If a football team has one violent player, you say "that player is violent". If a football team has 9 violent players, you are far, far more likely to say "that team is violent".

I apply the same logic with games - if it has 1 or 2 minor systems that grant an advantage to those paying, I will say "that feature is clearly p2w", while if a game is based around countless p2w features, and the business model is based around those features, I am far, far more likely to say "that game is p2w".

Don't mind if you disagree, I understand your pov as well.

Honestly, the is a good way to make an easy description but it might not answer the questions of many in the thread.

[sam86]

Indeed, but boosting has been an issue since Vanilla, heck, so has the purchase of currency.

no it isn't
pre-token era boost was rare to none, because most ppl didn't even care to get gold, cosmetics were almost none (2nd highest mount was 20k gold), most top raiding guilds need gold just for repair bills and consumables and that is extremely easy obtainable by logging 1 single day every week beside raiding doing anything at all
pre-token gold was just that, gold, getting gold was just to be a greedy goblin nothing else, has no in-game benefit, 1 mount was 100k i think 2nd highest 20k, assume u even care about them in first place (i still didn't get the 100k mount, and i have a lot more mounts and even higher)
i did 1 boost in my wrath era where i was in top guild horde side and was out of boredom and fun, pre-token most ppl were pugging instead of buying/selling boosts, now no one does that

[Lochton]

Or. Stay with me here. You pay for the currency in a sanctioned transaction by the developer. You pay real money for in-game currency. Where that in game currency comes from is irrelevant. Once you have that currency. That you pay money for. It is up to you to decide what to do with this currency.

Recap
Step 1: Pay someone real money for in game currency.
Step 2: ?
Step 3: You have successfully participated in P2W.

So.. We're back to my conclusive statement deeper in this thread, with your view, the game has been P2W since its 2nd week of existence? You are, after all, stating it does not matter some of the steps.

Though I'd waiver a good chunk of my comments on the description another user in here recently has made, making the game not fall under the P2W tag, one or two of its features does.

[Elias1337]

So you can buy a carry. So what? You still have to go through the raid, right? You can't just sit outside the entrance, logged in, while the group does all the work, right? So you still have to spend the same amount of time whether you're going through the raid the first time or if you're being carried through it. It's not like there's a button you press when you log in that delivers all the gold and loot you would get to your inbox, ready to use.

It's almost like you're so caught up in your narrative that you can't think logically and realize the truth.

Rofl you really thikink boosting take same amounth of time like going trough raid for very first time? HAHA no it doesnt its way way way faster with boosting group. Also nobady buys boosting for gear. Gear is meaningless becouse how blizz completly resets our progess each patch. If you get mount and AoTC you dont even need gear after that becouse you alredy have rewards what matter most. So atlest use your brain next time you try post something. Game get into state where players doesnt give single ***** about gear progression. Its all about those end game achievement and mounts and in such desgin its way more efficient to just buy boost kill end game boss and quit till new patch then waste time progressing with guild.

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So.. We're back to my conclusive statement deeper in this thread, with your view, the game has been P2W since its 2nd week of existence? You are, after all, stating it does not matter some of the steps.

Though I'd waiver a good chunk of my comments on the description another user in here recently has made, making the game not fall under the P2W tag, one or two of its features does.

If you buying gold for 3rd part website what is againts ToS and get you banned few days later such game isnt P2W becouse it do not promotes P2W.

[Lochton]

no it isn't
pre-token era boost was rare to none, because most ppl didn't even care to get gold, cosmetics were almost none (2nd highest mount was 20k gold), most top raiding guilds need gold just for repair bills and consumables and that is extremely easy obtainable by logging 1 single day every week beside raiding doing anything at all
pre-token gold was just that, gold, getting gold was just to be a greedy goblin nothing else, has no in-game benefit, 1 mount was 100k i think 2nd highest 20k, assume u even care about them in first place (i still didn't get the 100k mount, and i have a lot more mounts and even higher)
i did 1 boost in my wrath era where i was in top guild horde side and was out of boredom and fun, pre-token most ppl were pugging instead of buying/selling boosts, now no one does that

Boosting for gold, and even real money, has been a thing since Vanilla, one of them only dying out thanks to the Token, even the aggressive gold sellers are dying out, thanks to the Token. I recall sitting being in the cities to form my own raids, or get consumables, that there were a lot of trade messages offering boosts for either the price of gold, certain items being reserved (that was a big cost once), or RMTs. It wasn't rare. You saw them daily, all the way up, and if you took a little trip to Ratchet or Booty Bay, you would be in Gold seller central.

Thottbot, Allakhazam, WoWhead, and even MMO-champion have fought against advertisements popping up for gold sales, RMT serves such as boosting, or rare items, and more for a long time, and heck, MMO-champion still has people mentioning that a few of such sites still cycle into their advertisements now and then, hence they ask people to report it instead of bringing it up/complain about it.

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If you buying gold for 3rd part website what is againts ToS and get you banned few days later such game isnt P2W becouse it do not promotes P2W.

I wasn't the one who said some steps don't matter.

Even at that, a good source of gold from the outside world without breaking ToS, was the sale of TCG cards.

[Elias1337]

Boosting for gold, and even real money, has been a thing since Vanilla, one of them only dying out thanks to the Token, even the aggressive gold sellers are dying out, thanks to the Token. I recall sitting being in the cities to form my own raids, or get consumables, that there were a lot of trade messages offering boosts for either the price of gold, certain items being reserved (that was a big cost once), or RMTs. It wasn't rare. You saw them daily, all the way up, and if you took a little trip to Ratchet or Booty Bay, you would be in Gold seller central.

Thottbot, Allakhazam, WoWhead, and even MMO-champion have fought against advertisements popping up for gold sales, RMT serves such as boosting, or rare items, and more for a long time, and heck, MMO-champion still has people mentioning that a few of such sites still cycle into their advertisements now and then, hence they ask people to report it instead of bringing it up/complain about it.

Boosting for gold what you made yourself by playing game isnt P2W. Boosting for gold you bought for real money is P2W. And just becouse there was ilegal way to buy gold in vannila doesnt mean vannila was P2W. Becouse P2W is based around if game company promotes it instead of fighting it.

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Boosting for gold, and even real money, has been a thing since Vanilla, one of them only dying out thanks to the Token, even the aggressive gold sellers are dying out, thanks to the Token. I recall sitting being in the cities to form my own raids, or get consumables, that there were a lot of trade messages offering boosts for either the price of gold, certain items being reserved (that was a big cost once), or RMTs. It wasn't rare. You saw them daily, all the way up, and if you took a little trip to Ratchet or Booty Bay, you would be in Gold seller central.

Thottbot, Allakhazam, WoWhead, and even MMO-champion have fought against advertisements popping up for gold sales, RMT serves such as boosting, or rare items, and more for a long time, and heck, MMO-champion still has people mentioning that a few of such sites still cycle into their advertisements now and then, hence they ask people to report it instead of bringing it up/complain about it.

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I wasn't the one who said some steps don't matter.

Even at that, a good source of gold from the outside world without breaking ToS, was the sale of TCG cards.

It was againts ToS its just wasnt possible to find out.

[Lochton]

Boosting for gold what you made yourself by playing game isnt P2W. Boosting for gold you bought for real money is P2W. And just becouse there was ilegal way to buy gold in vannila doesnt mean vannila was P2W. Becouse P2W is based around if game company promotes it instead of fighting it.

This statement was literally about boosting having been around for ages, and been an issue in one way or the other.

It was againts ToS its just wasnt possible to find out.

The sales of TCG items for gold were 100% permitted, and endorsed by Blizzard Entertainment, else there wouldn't have been BoE TCG items. They held no problem with people selling their TCG (BoE items) for gold, and then you have TCG items that were sold outside the game, for real money, or gold as well - not permitted (the gold part) but it happened too, very common for the BoP cards.

[Athulua]

WoW is not a classic pay to win game. If you want to know what is one, look up Gameforge and their popular browser games such as OGame.

Now that's a clear pay to win, as some features provide straight up advantage (+10% resource production, faster research etc.) and can only be bought with real money. They later introduced a premium currency that can be veeeeeery slowly farmed ingame, but that's still pay to win as fuck, it was not sustainable at all. Took months to farm up enough currency for just a single week of premium feature.

WoW isn't like that. You can either buy a boost or just play the game (duh!) Players that boost aren't doing better than those that are playing the game.

[Elias1337]

This statement was literally about boosting having been around for ages, and been an issue in one way or the other.



The sales of TCG items for gold were 100% permitted, and endorsed by Blizzard Entertainment, else there wouldn't have been BoE TCG items. They held no problem with people selling their TCG (BoE items) for gold, and then you have TCG items that were sold outside the game, for real money, or gold as well - not permitted (the gold part) but it happened too, very common for the BoP cards.

No your statement is. Boosting was in WoW for ages so current problem of P2W bossting is ok. Thats what you are saying. People like you always look into past see small amount of existence of something and use it to justifi its existence in present wow. Yes people bought gold in vannila and got banned, were total minority and it had very very small impact on players enyjoment of the game. Current boosting in moder game is literaly only thing what is trading atm. It completly ruined game and exist beocuse of existence of token and Blizzard promoting gold selling isntead of fighting it. Do you play classic? Becouse i do and barely anyone bothers to buy boosts or sell boosts. Why? Becouse majority of players do not have easy acess to gold becouse game do not have token.

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WoW is not a classic pay to win game. If you want to know what is one, look up Gameforge and their popular browser games such as OGame.

Now that's a clear pay to win, as some features provide straight up advantage (+10% resource production, faster research etc.) and can only be bought with real money. They later introduced a premium currency that can be veeeeeery slowly farmed ingame, but that's still pay to win as fuck, it was not sustainable at all. Took months to farm up enough currency for just a single week of premium feature.

WoW isn't like that. You can either buy a boost or just play the game (duh!) Players that boost aren't doing better than those that are playing the game.

P2W is anygame where you can buy power for real money. Thats it. If i can take my real life money and buy power for it game is in fact P2W. P2W has nothing to do if you can get something for real money but cant for playing game. Its describes any game where you can buy power for real money.

[Schmittay]

the widely accepted definition of p2w is using real money to buy power. Whether that be currency, gear, or straight up power like the level boosts. Whenever any other game other than WoW is mentioned, it's called p2w. But suddenly it stops being p2w when it's WoW.

Show me. Or it's just you and a few others saying so. No advantage can be given over ANY player who chooses not to spend a dime, except convenience. Convenience isn't "winning", and is also not giving "advantage". I mean seriously.

But hey, feel free to throw terms and meanings around, it's the internet.

[Nalam the Venom]

What are you "winning" when those gear boxes get available?

Personally i don’t see anything P2W about it, but i guess the argument that those that do is ”Time”.

Players who choose to play ”Normally” might find it unfair that they are limited by raid lockouts but boxes can be bought infinite number of times.

It’s all really dumb tho, Since ”Winning” has nothing to do with your ilvl.

If anything getting highest gear faster will just make you feel hollow and empty, as there is no point to do any thing anymore

[Lochton]

No your statement is. Boosting was in WoW for ages so current problem of P2W bossting is ok. Thats what you are saying.

No. I was stating the boosting has been an issue since Vanilla. Doesn't make it okay but doesn't make it easily solved either. Token or not.

People like you always look into past see small amount of existence of something and use it to justifi its existence in present wow.

Says a person like you who tag the whole game as P2W because of one or two minor things within, and said things aren't even needed to play the game successfully.

Yes people bought gold in vannila and got banned, were total minority and it had very very small impact on players enyjoment of the game.

Gold sales in Vanilla weren't some small pot, definitely wasn't a minority, the amount would most likely just have been smaller than now. And how you see it, is how you react on the Token, if you had an issue with the Token, then it DID impact people then too, for they could buy their advancements for the gold - no matter how you see the Token, the gold sales DID impact players enjoyment of the game. Loads of botting, hacking, hacked and stripped accounts, aggressive advertisement in the form of whispers, mail (in-game), thousands of calendar invites, and floating advertisements by hacking lvl 1 characters. Ratchet and Booty Bay were back then, luckily by time it thinned out, but before it was overrun with very obvious gold sales characters, or gold transfer characters, or also were a good amount of hacked characters got parked, stripped, and had their gear vendored for use of the coin.

Current boosting in moder game is literaly only thing what is trading atm.

No, it is literally not the only thing that is trading. It is highly advertised but not the only thing, just to be straight.

It completly ruined game

It didn't ruin the game, it ruined your view of the game because of how other players choose to play the game.

and exist beocuse of existence of token

It is VISIBLE because the token made it safer, and easier to do it, the only problem now is having to trust players with the gold, and not get scammed. Before that, it existed in huge positions anyways, but higher chance of being scammed, or cheaper, or RMT.

and Blizzard promoting gold selling isntead of fighting it.

Blizzard literally offered the only solution to fix it, make their own version safer and easier. Gold selling wouldn't be able to be stopped without disabling any form of trade, or currency trade, but then they would go to the auction house and sell some overpriced grey - which is also going on at the current.

Do you play classic? Becouse i do and barely anyone bothers to buy boosts or sell boosts. Why? Becouse majority of players do not have easy acess to gold becouse game do not have token.

Yes, I play Classic now and then but Classic is a side-simulation of the main game, and is, as we can see, not struck with the same events and methods that happened during Vanilla and TBC (And forward). But even so, you still have boost sales but much cheaper because no safe and easy gold, yet you can buy gold from gold traders (people trying to make a value of Classic gold for Progression/Main gold), or gold sellers - yes, they are in Classic too.

[Elias1337]

Yes, I play Classic now and then but Classic is a side-simulation of the main game, and is, as we can see, not struck with the same events and methods that happened during Vanilla and TBC (And forward). But even so, you still have boost sales but much cheaper because no safe and easy gold, yet you can buy gold from gold traders (people trying to make a value of Classic gold for Progression/Main gold), or gold sellers - yes, they are in Classic too.

You dont have them cheaper. Players do not have enough gold so boost sellers do no waste time boosting becouse time vs gold earn isnt worth the effort.

Oh and btw i just did some digging and find out that you are one of the boost sellers. So i am dont talking to you since you are biased as you have agenda when comes to boosting so your opinion on this matter is completly useless.

[sam86]

Boosting for gold, and even real money, has been a thing since Vanilla, one of them only dying out thanks to the Token, even the aggressive gold sellers are dying out, thanks to the Token. I recall sitting being in the cities to form my own raids, or get consumables, that there were a lot of trade messages offering boosts for either the price of gold, certain items being reserved (that was a big cost once), or RMTs. It wasn't rare. You saw them daily, all the way up, and if you took a little trip to Ratchet or Booty Bay, you would be in Gold seller central.

yes and they were all illegal hence why they weren't introduced as much as now
i know someone in classic who bought gold to get his mount, and heard of someone who bought boost for T2, but that's it, they were the exception, not the common
now it is the common to get a boost to be able to get to raiding guild, not the reverse, u are expected to get ahead of curve from week 2 at most, and have higher ilvl from raid if u want to pug from week 3, assume u can find a pug in first place (or even if u create one, find ppl who will join)
and seriously the fact that the top classic raiding guild on official server said they leaving classic because the old experience is ruined and they flat out said that now all are about buying and selling boosts and nothing else seal that deal, we talk about ppl who played classic at its release, stayed in private servers for 16 years, played on official only to find it fucked by boosts and leaving it because they are fed (and they probably will be back to private, of course they can't type that officially), what more proof u want?
Ask any old player if they found boost selling 24/7 pre-token era as much as now, i don't claim there was none, heck i admit i did one, but i strongly confirm that they were way less pre-token