Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[minteK917]

Token is pay to win. Anybody argueing against this is just wrong and it doesent matter. Blizzard purposefully put a mechanic in the game to help player transactions to get carried or buy any kind of thing they want if they have enough money, because now they can get a cut. Just because before this you could have bots sell you gold, is not the same. Bots arent part of the game. The token is.

We can take an analogue to this to show exactly why its p2w. There are other genre with cheats. Lets say aimbots in fps. In order to break anti cheats people are willing to pay to get the newest aimbots. Well its not the game being P2W. Its outside if the game. The same argument then applies if in order to shut the bots down, the game now sells ingame aimbots subscription for 99.99 a year. Guess what the game is now p2w because its in the game. You are intended to be able to use money to bypass a portion of the game. Unlike before. You can just stop trying to circle around the pot and say that there are level of p2w that are fine with you instead and thats fine, because its what people defending it means, they just often are too cowardly to say it.

[Empower]

Token is pay to win. Anybody argueing against this is just wrong and it doesent matter. Blizzard purposefully put a mechanic in the game to help player transactions to get carried or buy any kind of thing they want if they have enough money, because now they can get a cut. Just because before thia you could have bots sell you gold, is not the same. Bots arent part of the game. The token is.

We can take an analogue to this to show exactlt why its p2w. There are other genre with cheats. Lets say aimbots in fps. In order to break anti cheats people are willing to pay to get the newest aimbots. Well its not the game being P2W. Its outside if the game. The same argument then applies if in order to shut the bots down, the game now sells ingame aimbots subscription for 99.99 a year. Guess what the game is not p2w because its in the game. You are intended to be able to use money to bypass a portion of the game. Unlike before. You can just stop trying ro circle around the pot and say that there qre level of p2w that are fine with you instead and thats fine, because its what people defending it means, they just often are too cowardly to say it.

I admit I thought we moved beyond the argument of defending it to why isn't blizzard doing something about the advertisement problem in game.

[Argorwal]

What other p2w game completely relies on actual players providing the service?

[bearlolz]

a level 70 rogue with no gear and only dragonspine trophy is roughly $400

[Darkeon]

What other p2w game completely relies on actual players providing the service?

Tokens not only not rely on actual players to provide the service, they also offer a sanctioned method of acquiring said player services via real life money. It's not that black and white.

[rhorle]

Hate to point out your ignorance but you know method(limit?) admitted to buying millions of gold during a interview post race before right?

I never said they didn't do so you are only pointing out that which you've invented.

[Empower]

What other p2w game completely relies on actual players providing the service?

Runescape would be the most direct example for a 1 to 1 I can think of off the top of my head.

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I never said they didn't do so you are only pointing out that which you've invented.

I mean you said you can't see how gold would be useful to a fast clearing mythic guild just pointing out that you are wrong about that as well.

[rhorle]

You are intended to be able to use money to bypass a portion of the game. Unlike before. You can just stop trying to circle around the pot and say that there are level of p2w that are fine with you instead and thats fine, because its what people defending it means, they just often are too cowardly to say it.

Except you can't by pass earning gold in WoW with the token. It doesn't create any gold. It just transfers it from one player to another. You are trading $15 for the effort of another player and $5 to Blizzard for being the middle man.

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I mean you said you can't see how gold would be useful to a fast clearing mythic guild just pointing out that you are wrong about that as well.

No where did I say that. Of course gold, gained in-game or out, is useful to a world first guild. Or anyone for that matter.

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Tokens not only not rely on actual players to provide the service, they also offer a sanctioned method of acquiring said player services via real life money. It's not that black and white.

If no player has the gold to purchase a token then no player will be able to use real money to get gold. Tokens have sold out before.

[Argorwal]

Tokens not only not rely on actual players to provide the service, they also offer a sanctioned method of acquiring said player services via real life money. It's not that black and white.

More about how buying a carry requires there being players able and interested in providing that carry.

Mythic raid carries aren’t even possible on most servers until months after it’s been out.

[Darkeon]

More about how buying a carry requires there being players able and interested in providing that carry.

Mythic raid carries aren’t even possible on most servers until months after it’s been out.

But this thread isn't about whether it's rampant, serious or even an egregious amount of P2W, simply whether it's possible or not. There are definitely other games out there, namely MMOs, that are much worse than WoW when it comes to it.

[Spicymemer]

ALL MY OPINIONS ARE BAD

I agree.

Also 13,000 posts in 13 years, YIKES.

[Elbob]

If you must add a ton of exceptions and explanations for your argument to even remotely make sense you don't have much of an argument.

Now wow has always had pay to win in it. The thing annoying people now is how out of control it has gotten. It is to the point it impedes forming actual groups.

The exception being that I have enough gold without the token to buy my own boe's? Explanations are needed otherwise you over reduce the answer. Either the game is P2W or not and I could spend thousands of dollars on wow tokens and gain 0 power off those tokens... so how is it P2W? What advantage am I gaining over my exact copy that spend 0 on wow tokens?

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So what? Why would there have to be an advantage in every single situation for it to be called p2w?
What if you're a super-casual that plays 15min a week and only sits and chats in a city in some *insert whatever mmo You think is actual p2w* care about someone buying a 1shot pvp spells or something that doesn't directly affect them? Is the *insert whatever mmo You think is actual p2w* suddenly not p2w now? The fact that your definition changes depending on the situation makes your definition pointless, the term is black and white, either there is an advantage in general across the entre playerbase or there isn't, anything that disrupts the balance/fairness and allows for money outside the game to influence the game inside it is p2w.

No thats still p2w because regardless if the 2 players interact 1 is still gaining an advantage over the other assuming the only thing granting access to that spell at that time is interaction with the shop? I'm not sure you understood my post. My definition does not change on the situation. Its very simple either players paying additional money gain an advantage on players that don't or not. If I can't spend money to gain an leg up on my equivalent that spent none, I can't call the game P2W.

[Howlk]

But this thread isn't about whether it's rampant, serious or even an egregious amount of P2W, simply whether it's possible or not. There are definitely other games out there, namely MMOs, that are much worse than WoW when it comes to it.

Its simply not. All you can buy with gold ingame had to be achieved by a someone before it becomes available for sale, be it a boe drop you wanna buy for your WF race or a mid-season +15 or arena rating boost. your money will at no point carry you past the people that are good enough to achieve them first. so by definition not pay 2 win, but pay 2 not play yourself.

[Darkeon]

Its simply not. All you can buy with gold ingame had to be achieved by a someone before it becomes available for sale, be it a boe drop you wanna buy for your WF race or a mid-season +15 or arena rating boost. your money will at no point carry you past the people that are good enough to achieve them first. so by definition not pay 2 win, but pay 2 not play yourself.

It's irrelevant whether you'll get rank 1 or not.

If that was the metric that makes real life transactions P2W or not, then no game would be because it can't guarantee you are the top dog. By your logic anything short than a Fade-to-Black "congratulations you beat the game" would be fair game - not to mention impossible in MMOs.

[rhorle]

It's irrelevant whether you'll get rank 1 or not.

The amusing part is that it is even irrelevant if you get any win/power or not. Because buying gold with a token in WoW does not directly provide a win/power.

[Darkeon]

The amusing part is that it is even irrelevant if you get any win/power or not. Because buying gold with a token in WoW does not directly provide a win/power.

Ever tried dueling someone who purchased a boost while you are still leveling?

[MoanaLisa]

The problem you seem to be falling into is that pay to win has to be negative according to you. So it doesn't allow for acceptable and not acceptable ways of pay to win. Which is why those grey areas and nuance need to be included in the definition rather then considered after the definition. Of course it doesn't matter what people think because companies will do whatever they want. That adds zero discussion value though and is just dismissive.

Ummm....no. I said nothing about my own thoughts about it (except the argument over the years gets dumber and dumber).

In fact, there are days when I'm reading P2W threads that I wish that Blizzard would full-on go with raid gear in their store so the argument would be settled. And no, I wouldn't mind that. I wouldn't buy it but I don't travel in circles where that would matter and for about the 113th time in this thread: What people do with their money is their business (and not ours).

TL-DR: I don't have any issues with the store or the game being pay-to-win. Shock. Horror. It's Blizzard's game. If selling more stuff on the store keeps sub costs down that's fine. Don't assume you can read my mind based on what I didn't say.

[rhorle]

Ever tried dueling someone who purchased a boost while you are still leveling?

Right level boosts involve power and are pay to win. But many are saying the token is pay to win even though it doesn't provide a win.

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Ummm....no. I said nothing about my own thoughts about it (except the argument over the years gets dumber and dumber).

Ahh. Right. An entire opinion post doesn't actually contain your own opinion. What value is it discussing things that you don't even believe in? You clearly implied it by trying to be the arbiter of what is right and wrong in the discussion. This discussion is always simple. There are no grey areas. There are no exceptions. If you are buying power, "the win", then you are paying to win. If you are not then you are not paying to win.

Everything else to change that is just refusal to accept the simplicity for whatever reason.

[Darkeon]

Right level boosts involve power and are pay to win. But many are saying the token is pay to win even though it doesn't provide a win.

Nevermind, totally misread your thing. My bad.

[M1r4g3]

No thats still p2w because regardless if the 2 players interact 1 is still gaining an advantage over the other assuming the only thing granting access to that spell at that time is interaction with the shop? I'm not sure you understood my post. My definition does not change on the situation. Its very simple either players paying additional money gain an advantage on players that don't or not. If I can't spend money to gain an leg up on my equivalent that spent none, I can't call the game P2W.

And you don't consider farming golds vs instant bought gold an advantage?
Level boost vs leveling? What was it calculated to, something like 200 hours saved leveling vs buying boost in classic/tbc? Still not an advantage?
Apparently its only an advantage if it affects you directly huh?
Pretty sure there is no way to get gold as fast as you can click the buy token button.

What if next tier we get items that are 10 times rarer/more expensive for which you and your guild don't have gold and another guild thats 1 rank bellow you decide to buy millions of gold in tokens and overtakes you in the leaderboards? You get directly affected then by getting less applications and lower quality players, meaning your ''equivalent'' got an advantage over you by spending irl money, yes you're gonna say ''well we can farm it'' but there comes a point(which is different for everyone) where you realistically can't, and thats when it becomes p2w(for you, for others its far far sooner).