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  1. #21
    Why wouldnt people compare current wow to other mmos. What dumb logic would there be in comparing its peak wotlk to anything at all right now other than going wow had a lot of subs back then. This is some top tier troll thread lol.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    People who play WoW are going to buy it, larger day 1 sales just means the players are unsure to even buy the game at all, so they are leaving it to the last minute and probably only buy it because they have nothing better to do.

    How many pre ordered the game is a number that actually shows interest in the game or not.
    That makes literally no sense.

    Sales by release date\launch account for every pre-sale, and day-1 purchases as well. They are not different metrics as you, clumsily, tried to state.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hydrium View Post
    What are you smoking?

    WoWs lifetime sales don't even get them into top 5.
    Did you even read, or understood, what i wrote? It wasn't a mention to total\lifetime sales...

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    That makes literally no sense.

    Sales by release date\launch account for every pre-sale, and day-1 purchases as well. They are not different metrics as you, clumsily, tried to state.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Did you even read, or understood, what i wrote? It wasn't a mention to total\lifetime sales...
    Its actually you who doesnt make sense, they stated it was the fastest selling WoW expansion to date, nothing about highest selling PC game on day 1 sales, so they are not comparing it to anything other than other WoW expansions.

    Cyberpunk had 8 million pre orders and sold over 13 million copies in 10 days even with refunds so that game alone kicks WoWs ass in sales.

    It also depends on how they calculate the sales, because 3.7 million copies did not sell on day 1 of an expansion since that is most of WoWs playerbase if not all at this point.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-28 at 01:20 AM.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by GMZohar1 View Post
    Still no as good as wow
    FFXIV is currently beating WoW in subs, costs the same for a monthly sub, is pulling in more quarterly revenue than WoW already and is projected to do even better come Endwalker release in November. Blizzard is mired in various lawsuits and development has slowed a bit. In all honesty I think WoW won't ever die, but this is as close to a WoW-killer occurring as is realistic.

    I myself swapped to FF, and it's incredible how i can log in every day and decide what I WANT to do, instead of thinking about what I NEED to do to cap various mechanics in WoW. Somewhere along the line, maybe during Warlord of Draenor, but honestly bits can be seen even in TBC, WoW became about completing daily and weekly caps, not exploring dungeons and playing content, in my opinion because of Activision's goals for the IP. The devs simply want to push engagement to the max with the least amount of actual content development, and that makes for a shallow job of a game. If you're enjoying WoW, that's cool, and I'm sure it'll be there for a long time, but the truth is that these comparisons are fair, FFXIV is a more popular, larger, and more lucrative game at the moment, and the trend seems to be that FFXIV will continue to improve as WoW continues to decline. IMO nothing short of a new engine and new IP owner will save WoW from becoming a memory in the long run - but that still might be possible; Bungie's repurchase of the Destiny IP, separation from Activision and the incredible revival Destiny 2 is enjoying at the moment show that it could happen.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Yes, Blizz PR told you that they are still the dominant leader. And despite erasing all evidence of that claim shortly after WoD launched, you accept that claim uncritically.

    Meanwhile, those who've tried their best to find actual numbers find that WoW is not actually number 1 anymore.

    FFXIV is running with 2 to 3 times more active players than WoW Retail...which means even WoW total (Retail + Classic) has fewer active players than FFXIV. Heck, Old School Runescape is running at about 50% more active players than WoW Retail.

    Guess what...FFXIV also has a subscription fee.

    Stop mindlessly accepting corporate PR. Stop thinking that your belief is the same thing as reality. You still love the game...good for you. Don't let the fact that the game of your choosing isn't considered the absolute best drive you to ridiculous claims. Is your ego so fragile?
    Gonna need to see some actual evidence for this claim. Ill be waiting

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    The Sub model.

    WoW is still the dominant leader of the MMORPG market even though it has been in decline for 10 years now.
    Comparing WoW vs any other MMORPG whatever seems a bit silly, not only are those MMORPG in their prime in their life while WoW is in its worst state possible.

    WoW is also not F2P or B2P like those others MMORPG.

    Imagine if WoW Went F2P, my bet is that WoW could easily pop over 10-20 million active users once the payment barrier is gone.

    I doubt any MMORPG reaches 25% of that.

    Don't you think WoW always has a back up plan? F2P. (They can make money anyhow through cash shop like any other game)
    FFXIV has a payment model and it's constantly full of players. Removing the subscription model would be irrelevant for WoW because Blizzard has shown us in the last two expansions that they just don't care anymore.

  7. #27
    https://mmo-population.com/

    WoW has a much higher amount of created accounts, but the vast majority of them are unsubbed and not contributing to revenue.
    WoW had 1.1 million players online today, but FFXIV had 2.83 million on today, and it's FFXIV patch day, which skews the numbers in WoW's favor.

    I really don't understand your perspective on Destiny 2. It's currently an incredible game with zero incentive to use the cash shop that rewards you if you'd like to do dailys/weeklys with cash shop items for free. Under Bungie's full control, the playerbase has exploded and itemization is now intriguing and complex - in the vein of Diablo 3's endgame.

    Maybe it's worth adding, I love WoW, it's just not what it used to be for me. I began playing the game at 10 years old, grew up in Azeroth, and was a pro raider from 16-24 or so.
    Last edited by Alterrus; 2021-09-28 at 01:26 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    Gonna need to see some actual evidence for this claim. Ill be waiting
    https://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...me-of-All-Time

    Read the little asterisk at the bottom where it says the numbers were based on Blizzard's own "Dude, trust me." mentality as well as key distributors who were likely paid by Blizzard to say it. So unbound is right. People are believing that it's the fastest selling PC of all time purely because Blizzard told them it was.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by SirReal View Post
    Multiple people quoted it before you....I'd say that's a contribution. Calm down bud.

    I'm on the smart side of the spectrum so using the context already provided in the post was pretty easy. Would YOU like to add anything?

    OT: F2P will just never happen, but I certainly wouldn't mind it.
    Bingo. It's really quite simple - the entire premise of this thread is that there are no comparable MMOs with a sub and therefore wow cannot and should not be compared to anything else.

    The irony of the post you quoted is very strong. Wows closest competition has a sub, level boosts, and even similar features like the trinity, raids, and dungeons. It's not f2p and has seen huge growth recently, so the entire thread started off on very unstable ground.

    At the end of the day some people just go into threads looking for fights - it would seem at some point I have upset the person you quoted and they are just swinging wildly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    Would you like to contribute something? Anything? Context is a wonderful thing. You should try using some sometime. Especially if you're going to mock other peoples' grammar in your signature.
    That is the context lmao. FFXIV is about to surpass WoW in active subs, the thread is claiming that no other game can compete, it's just a blatant lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alterrus View Post
    FFXIV is currently beating WoW in subs, costs the same for a monthly sub, is pulling in more quarterly revenue than WoW already and is projected to do even better come Endwalker release in November. Blizzard is mired in various lawsuits and development has slowed a bit. In all honesty I think WoW won't ever die, but this is as close to a WoW-killer occurring as is realistic.

    I myself swapped to FF, and it's incredible how i can log in every day and decide what I WANT to do, instead of thinking about what I NEED to do to cap various mechanics in WoW. Somewhere along the line, maybe during Warlord of Draenor, but honestly bits can be seen even in TBC, WoW became about completing daily and weekly caps, not exploring dungeons and playing content, in my opinion because of Activision's goals for the IP. The devs simply want to push engagement to the max with the least amount of actual content development, and that makes for a shallow job of a game. If you're enjoying WoW, that's cool, and I'm sure it'll be there for a long time, but the truth is that these comparisons are fair, FFXIV is a more popular, larger, and more lucrative game at the moment, and the trend seems to be that FFXIV will continue to improve as WoW continues to decline. IMO nothing short of a new engine and new IP owner will save WoW from becoming a memory in the long run - but that still might be possible; Bungie's repurchase of the Destiny IP, separation from Activision and the incredible revival Destiny 2 is enjoying at the moment show that it could happen.
    Where in the world are you getting that they out earn wow quarterly? If wow is even a quarter of blizzard earnings it would best out FFXiv as there quarterly reports count dragon age X as well.

    https://investor.activision.com/stat...9-e7c647d36c03
    https://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/i...22q1slides.pdf

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alterrus View Post
    https://mmo-population.com/

    WoW has a much higher amount of created accounts, but the vast majority of them are unsubbed and not contributing to revenue.
    WoW had 1.1 million players online today, but FFXIV had 2.83 million on today, and it's FFXIV patch day, which skews the numbers in WoW's favor.

    I really don't understand your perspective on Destiny 2. It's currently an incredible game with zero incentive to use the cash shop that rewards you if you'd like to do dailys/weeklys with cash shop items for free. Under Bungie's full control, the playerbase has exploded and itemization is now intriguing and complex - in the vein of Diablo 3's endgame.

    Maybe it's worth adding, I love WoW, it's just not what it used to be for me. I began playing the game at 10 years old, grew up in Azeroth, and was a pro raider from 16-24 or so.
    Mmo population uses made up numbers as you can see when you cross reference then with official statements like the FFXIV investor reports.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Swagbag View Post
    As someone who actively plays both games I can tell you XIV is much smaller and chasing those daily/weekly caps is just as bad.
    I also play both games (wow since WoTLK and FF14 since 2.0). For me, the key difference is I don't feel compelled to do anything in ff14 so I just do whatever I feel like whereas in wow my gameplay is mostly driven by daily and weekly lockouts. As an example, I've spent months in ff14 doing nothing but Ishgard crafting because I wanted to. Just this week I started to run the last 24 man raid and I'm going to keep doing it until I get the glamour I want--there was no pressing need to do it as soon as it came out because you can always find a group for almost anything via the roulette system. Someday I'll progress the main story past 5.4--but this is not that week. Provided you're not raiding savage, there's no reason you have to cap anything or even play the current expansion. Just do whatever you feel like and gear will come along the way. You can spend an entire expansion fishing--if you want--and proceed with the main story once the next expansion launches and you'll get the gear you need via main story quest.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    People keep spewing f2p as a 'final solution' for WoW, but i feel we're so, so far from anything remotely drastic as that.

    I'll remind you that Shadowlands was the highest PC selling game by release, ever. And next expansion, regardless of quality, will have renewed interest from players, even if they don't play further than a few months. That alone is enough to keep justifying development.

    So, let's stop with the WoW F2p shenanigans, at least for a while longer.

    (And lots of other games with subscriptions... i don't get where you got WoW being the only one)
    I'm pretty much in agreement.

    Shadowlands likely did so well due to the press surrounding it, as well as its timing within the pandemic in many locations. To be fair, the vast majority of the people who play WoW probably don't even follow patch notes, let alone see any news beyond what their launcher shows. Be that as it may, if you were part of the alpha/beta of Shadowlands (which I was), it was painfully obvious Shadowlands had some severe issues to where I thought the game should've been delayed until January to release in a decent state. After BfA, I had a sneaking suspicion that releasing a problematic expansion would cost them in the long term... and it probably did, based upon their reactions as of late.

    However, I think the expansion after Shadowlands is going to have to be amazing on all levels in order to recover what good will Blizz has lost recently, and I'm not just talking lawsuit stuff. Despite Shadowlands having record-breaking sales, there's indications that participation/engagement in the game has dropped off drastically (whether it's the demeanor of Blizz, how they state their figures during quarterly reports, or aggregate data from the armory API). However, the point that's more in line with the thread topic is that Blizz likely makes most of their WoW money off of expansion sales and MTX services, not the subscriptions.

    Blizz could probably go F2P right now with the rest of its current monetization scheme in place, but why get rid of free money? I hate to be the one to say it, but their current direction with WoW has been way more about damage control... and I sadly think it's mainly motivated by money, not any sense of duty or morality to their customers.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2021-09-28 at 04:10 AM.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its actually you who doesnt make sense, they stated it was the fastest selling WoW expansion to date, nothing about highest selling PC
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...other-in-2020/

    It's like you're just being silly for no apparent reason than to avoid admitting you're wrong. Argue all you want about subjective aspects, but arguing numbers?

    Cyberpunk beat Shadowlands numbers, at a later date, 3 weeks to be exact. Hence, Shadowlands was the highest pc selling game at launch... Should i make a drawing to help you understand it?

    It's like arguing someone didn't have an olympic record just because someone beat it after. At a point in time, that was the record.
    Last edited by hulkgor; 2021-09-28 at 04:24 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...other-in-2020/

    It's like you're just being silly for no apparent reason than to avoid admitting you're wrong. Argue all you want about subjective aspects, but arguing numbers?

    Cyberpunk beat Shadowlands numbers, at a later date, 3 weeks to be exact. Hence, Shadowlands was the highest pc selling game at launch... Should i make a drawing to help you understand it?

    It's like arguing someone didn't have an olympic record just because someone beat it after. At a point in time, that was the record.
    You posted a link that helps prove you are wrong, WoW day 1 sales 3.7 million, Cyberpunk day 1 sales 4.72 million for PC alone, so cyberpunk beat WoW in numbers on day 1 sales and total sales, so WoW is only the fastest selling PC game compared to its other expansions and not all PC games, and it doesnt have the highest number of sales compared to other PC games.

    It doesnt matter if they didnt release on the same day, you are the one using that data in the wrong way.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    The Sub model.

    WoW is still the dominant leader of the MMORPG market even though it has been in decline for 10 years now.
    Comparing WoW vs any other MMORPG whatever seems a bit silly, not only are those MMORPG in their prime in their life while WoW is in its worst state possible.

    WoW is also not F2P or B2P like those others MMORPG.

    Imagine if WoW Went F2P, my bet is that WoW could easily pop over 10-20 million active users once the payment barrier is gone.

    I doubt any MMORPG reaches 25% of that.

    Don't you think WoW always has a back up plan? F2P. (They can make money anyhow through cash shop like any other game)
    Yes they probably could.
    But the game would still be dead. Now they make money from inconsequetnial stuff you can ignore completly.

    The moment they are F2P they will have a cash shop that will put FF14 and BDO to shame. Because how the fuck are they supposed earn money?

    And that is a step not even acti/blizz wants to do. Despite everything is still think they are passionate about the game... just guided wrong

    Th soul of the game would be completly destroyed everything in the game will only exist to push you towards the shop.

    And yes i know wow has a shop. But you can ignore it. No real tramsog available. The mounts... i honetsly hardly see anywhere. Only thing used across the board is probably the token. And even that you can ignore as making gold in retail is so easy...
    Right now wows cash shop is the tamest on the market. Look at FF14 and try to buy everyhting there and compare it to wow.

    And then look at ANY F2P MMO and compare it to FF14... There is a WORLD of difference.

  17. #37
    The F2P model is usually misunderstood by some players that have only played WoW. Truth is that what most F2P models offer is a massive trial, but ultimately if you want to commit to playing the game you need to pay some way or another, usually having some kind of monthly subscription as your best choice for that. And yes, those games usually have a cash shop with cosmetics or some kind of boosts. But they rarely sell anything power related. Some of them limit the player so much that you are basically forced to pay if you want to enjoy the game, others are less sketchy about it.

    WoW could perfectly be a F2P game at this point: they have a cash shop with cosmetics, they sell in-game currency, they sell character boosts, you are required to buy the expansion to be up to date... so if they changed to a F2P model you won't really see much changing.

    You could play the base game for free up to level 50, you'll probably have some limitations in terms of inventory space, auction house, max gold and even weekly loot.
    Let's say you want to play WotLK content with your F2P account... well, you either pay the monthly subscription to have access to it or you pay for a permanent unlock.
    Let's say you buy shadowlands for your F2P account: now you can level up to 60 and have access to all the expansion features, but you still have those limitations + any other limitation that will make your shadowlands experience slower.
    9.1 comes out, what happens to your account? well, you need to pay if you want to play it, same principle as with old expansions: monthly fee or permanent unlock in order to access any new zone, dungeon or raid. And again, you still have your usual limitations + new ones that could apply to any specific currency or how fast you can complete stuff.

    So basically, a F2P model can offer some flexibility that might be worth even for the company (keeping potential customers around rather than loosing them and hoping they'll come back with a new patch/expansion), but in the end anyone who is commited to the game will end up paying a subscription.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Shadowlands was not the highest PC selling game by release, it was claimed to just be the fastest according to day 1 sales numbers and thats it, shadowlands is probably lucky to have even half the sales WOTLK had in total. Day 1 sales dont really mean all that much tbh.
    I think for reference, stuff like CoD shifts in the order of 10-30 million copies over their lifetime, which is mostly 1-2 years. Also let's not forget that tallying a year's worth of preorders on the release date is hardly honest when it comes to "day 1 sales".
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Felis igneus View Post
    I think for reference, stuff like CoD shifts in the order of 10-30 million copies over their lifetime, which is mostly 1-2 years. Also let's not forget that tallying a year's worth of preorders on the release date is hardly honest when it comes to "day 1 sales".
    All copies sold with pre orders up until release date is counted as day 1 sales, technically the games isnt sold until day 1. Why would most of the playerbase wait until release to buy the game, 3.7 million copies is way too many to just be players who bought on the actual release date, it makes no sense to wait until release to buy it for most players.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    All copies sold with pre orders up until release date is counted as day 1 sales, technically the games isnt sold until day 1. Why would most of the playerbase wait until release to buy the game, 3.7 million copies is way too many to just be players who bought on the actual release date, it makes no sense to wait until release to buy it for most players.
    I know, but counting a year's worth of preorders, with early access goddies on top, as sales of a single day is simply disingenous when it comes to dick-measuring with other games. I mean even the yearly fanchises don't have preorder periods that last that long. I just wanted to express that SL's achievment really means not much at all.
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

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