Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[NED funded]

I guess you can say tokens? But man that is one weird and complicated way to "buy" gear considering that you would have to do it every week sometimes for months in order to properly get your good pieces.

You can deffo buy achievements with tokens but buying power is another beast

[Elbob]

And you don't consider farming golds vs instant bought gold an advantage?
Level boost vs leveling? What was it calculated to, something like 200 hours saved leveling vs buying boost in classic/tbc? Still not an advantage?
Apparently its only an advantage if it affects you directly huh?
Pretty sure there is no way to get gold as fast as you can click the buy token button.

What if next tier we get items that are 10 times rarer/more expensive for which you and your guild don't have gold and another guild thats 1 rank bellow you decide to buy millions of gold in tokens and overtakes you in the leaderboards? You get directly affected then by getting less applications and lower quality players, meaning your ''equivalent'' got an advantage over you by spending irl money, yes you're gonna say ''well we can farm it'' but there comes a point(which is different for everyone) where you realistically can't, and thats when it becomes p2w(for you, for others its far far sooner).

Catching up to what existing players have is not an advantage, its catching up. Advantages are something that put you ahead or in a favorable scenario. And by the google definition P2W needs to put at advantage over the non paying players. Its not just about 'me' its about everyone. The advantage needs to be over EVERYONE that doesn't pay.
Buy a level boost? I've been 60 for months
Buy an aotc? Had it for months
Buy BoE's? I have had them or better for months.

Your 2nd hypothetical is useless and we both know it. 'What ifs?' are useless and I can easily make one that favors my side. It just doesn't matter, the gold can be farmed ahead of time as fast you like. Even today you can make millions of gold a week doing boosts or advertising for communities. Until they limit your gold generation outside of the token it doesn't matter. The gold from tokens is never more then a catch up tool to try and help you gain on what players are doing ahead of you. The BoE's will never be more then player gold cap unless you wanna what if that one too. Which is easily farmable per tier by anyone in a raiding guild.

[rhorle]

Catching up to what existing players have is not an advantage, its catching up. Advantages are something that put you ahead or in a favorable scenario. And by the google definition P2W needs to put at advantage over the non paying players. Its not just about 'me' its about everyone. The advantage needs to be over EVERYONE that doesn't pay.

So buying mythic raid level gear is never an advantage because someone can gain that gear with out paying? Isn't it an advantage over those guilds that can't naturally clear mythic? If your guild is stuck on heroic, and you buy mythic gear, didn't you just pay for an advantage? According to you it wouldn't be paying for an advantage because you can only gain advantages when others can't gain those advantages for free.

This is another reason why advantage is a silly subjective definition.

[Unholyground]

It is not pay to win, it is more like paying to go on a jungle safari because the people buying the gold have no survival skill and need people that can carry their no skill asses and have more money than intelligence.

[Hyeonh]

Only the most ardent or in denial will say its not, at this point its very pay to win. Long as the WoW Token and boosting exists. The game can be easily progressed with your wallet, it's not hard pay to win but what i call a soft one where its not the company selling you power besides the level boost but through a third party that's basically given carte blanche within the wow token system.

[TheRevenantHero]

Show me. Or it's just you and a few others saying so. No advantage can be given over ANY player who chooses not to spend a dime, except convenience. Convenience isn't "winning", and is also not giving "advantage". I mean seriously.

But hey, feel free to throw terms and meanings around, it's the internet.

Advantage: any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end

So yeah. Level boost are, by definition, an advantage over players not spending $60.

[M1r4g3]

Catching up to what existing players have is not an advantage, its catching up. Advantages are something that put you ahead or in a favorable scenario. And by the google definition P2W needs to put at advantage over the non paying players. Its not just about 'me' its about everyone. The advantage needs to be over EVERYONE that doesn't pay.
Buy a level boost? I've been 60 for months
Buy an aotc? Had it for months
Buy BoE's? I have had them or better for months.

Your 2nd hypothetical is useless and we both know it. 'What ifs?' are useless and I can easily make one that favors my side. It just doesn't matter, the gold can be farmed ahead of time as fast you like. Even today you can make millions of gold a week doing boosts or advertising for communities. Until they limit your gold generation outside of the token it doesn't matter. The gold from tokens is never more then a catch up tool to try and help you gain on what players are doing ahead of you. The BoE's will never be more then player gold cap unless you wanna what if that one too. Which is easily farmable per tier by anyone in a raiding guild.

Paying to catch up is still an advantage... Putting you ahead of people who were your equals before you paid money to get ahead. No as long as its p2w for some its p2w, again, it doesn't matter if it affects you or not, it affects others. You are free to come up with a word for your own thing but p2w applies to any kind of advantage gained by paying.

The point of the hypothetical was to give you some perspective on other players(since apparently you only know how to talk about yourself), you didn't get the message so im just going to go ahead and not reply anymore since its pointless to talk to someone ignorant who only talks about himself...

[Flaks]

See this is what I'm talking about. Like so many people clearly miss the point of this discussion because they're either not following it or have logical gaps. It makes it impossible to talk about.

Obviously no one thinks p2w involves the use of money to pay people to do things for you OUTSIDE OF WHAT THE GAME WOULD NORMALLY ALLOW OR ENABLE. Smash brothers doesn't have an in game token that lets you get game currency for real dollars.

Yes, by your logic, every game is p2w because I can technically pay anyone to do game stuff for me. But that's like obviously not the point of the discussion and obviously not what people are talking about.

I'll start of by saying I agree with you.

People keep arguing that paid carries were always a thing in this game; and they were. The difference is just how acceptable it's gotten. Before, real money transactions or large sum gold transactions would be exceptionally rare and would generally flag your account making Blizzard scrutinize it and potentially ban you. There were major repercussions for risking such things.

Now on the other hand Blizzard subsidizes that same thing that used to be frowned upon and bannable. They have no quality control measures for how real money transactions occur because they're getting a gigantic piece of the pie and so this whole culture around wow token has popped up with boosting.

To answer the thread: WoW is indisputably pay to win. It incentivizes shortcuts to the the most competitive aspects of the game by spending money instead of time.

[rhorle]

To answer the thread: WoW is indisputably pay to win. It incentivizes shortcuts to the the most competitive aspects of the game by spending money instead of time.

Does it though? The only way you can get that shortcut is through the time of others. The time it took someone to farm the gold and trade it for a token. The time it takes for someone to carry a person (the time it takes to level up, gear up, etc to be able to do that).

If the token were to disappear it wouldn't also remove boosts from the game. It would just lower their cost. Boosting even started to grow in popularity before the token was introduced in the game. It started to grow when timed runs were added in MoP. It grew faster when gold inflation occurred with garrisons. About 4 months after the launch of WoD is when the token was introduced.

[Soon-TM]

Now wow has always had pay to win in it. The thing annoying people now is how out of control it has gotten. It is to the point it impedes forming actual groups.

Not only this, but I can also imagine a brand new player sitting in SW/Org/Oribos and being witness to the massive boosting ads spam. There is no way that that can look even remotely decent.

[TheRevenantHero]

Paying to catch up is still an advantage... Putting you ahead of people who were your equals before you paid money to get ahead. No as long as its p2w for some its p2w, again, it doesn't matter if it affects you or not, it affects others. You are free to come up with a word for your own thing but p2w applies to any kind of advantage gained by paying.

The point of the hypothetical was to give you some perspective on other players(since apparently you only know how to talk about yourself), you didn't get the message so im just going to go ahead and not reply anymore since its pointless to talk to someone ignorant who only talks about himself...

I've made this exact point several times and they refuse to listen even when I show them the dictionary definition of the word advantage. "It's not an advantage. You're paying for convenience." Ya know....exactly what an advantage is.

[NED funded]

Only the most ardent or in denial will say its not, at this point its very pay to win. Long as the WoW Token and boosting exists. The game can be easily progressed with your wallet, it's not hard pay to win but what i call a soft one where its not the company selling you power besides the level boost but through a third party that's basically given carte blanche within the wow token system.

Easily is not what I would call it. You can easily be carried through high keys in dungeons but its not exactly easy to carry someone through mythic. That service might not even exist in your server

[Good ol Stroggylos]

So, what you're saying is, it's been P2W since TCG was launched in 2006?

Not familiar with the way tcg works in the sense of transforming money to ways that can bypass gameplay economy without tos conflicts but sure if that's the case then I agree

[kaminaris]

Not only this, but I can also imagine a brand new player sitting in SW/Org/Oribos and being witness to the massive boosting ads spam. There is no way that that can look even remotely decent.

But that is not the fault of boosters or token. Boosting in this game is demand driven. The more blizzard introduces "boostable content" with cool rewards (and better yet - fomo) the more rampant it will become. Boosting exploded because more and more cool stuff was gated behind "hard" (or really tedious) content.

Since MoP there were many many things including M+, seasonal rewards from M+, raising raids difficulty, removing 10 mans, splitting M+ to Tyr/Forti, making pvp gear better, making pvp glad harder to get and so on. That is your cause of boosting. It is also easy to prove.

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Not familiar with the way tcg works in the sense of transforming money to ways that can bypass gameplay economy without tos conflicts but sure if that's the case then I agree

But your moral breaks doesn't prevent other from buying boosts/gold directly tho.

[sam86]

That might be your take on it but I disagree. Take arena's back in 2007 for example, boosting was extremely common for gold, and you think everyone got their gold through legitimate ways? If so you're naïve.

Boosting has been rampant in WoW since forever.

on my servers it was, i didn't ignore trade chat pre-WoD era because it wasn't 1502 boost sell per second, and i switched servers 3 times

and they didnt need to, they bought boost for real money straight, without any gold involved...

and how exactly it was popular when it was illegal? that literally can't happen if most boost were with real money (aka token before token)

You can do the same using gold earned entirely in game, by having friends in the guild or being good at playing.

yes but still his scenario IS happening, most p2w games sell u shortcut time for items, not exclusive items by money, this system is dead since ages, all game that sell virtual goods just speed up things, like most famous Candy Crush

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But your moral breaks doesn't prevent other from buying boosts/gold directly tho.

TCG can be counted as p2w if u want to twist that, but unlike tokens (which are just log to the official website and give money to get gold), they were extremely rare to be counted
counting them is like counting a rare BoE drop that u sell to get gold to buy boost, in my entire wow life i had 1 single rare drop from Ungoro Crater that actually gave me insane gold, that was during classic era
Not to mention in internet infant era most ppl didn't even know how to get TCG items, they weren't sold on official website

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No. You literally cannot. Boosters get you to their level at the absolute most.

There is nothing at all in WoW that you can get by buying tokens that will put you above everyone else that doesn't. WoW is pay to catchup, at best.

i agree boost can't give u best, but give u easy well boost above average players
that's still p2w, it isn't p2 get best, but it still give u shortcut to save a lot of time by throwing some $$$ in Bobby Kodick face

[Alithia]

You paid 2500.00 USD for gear and a boss kill on a dying game that hasnt been relevant in the gaming community since 2010? oh my...

He is lying. A full myth clear with Vengeance is far far less!

[Lochton]

Not familiar with the way tcg works in the sense of transforming money to ways that can bypass gameplay economy without tos conflicts but sure if that's the case then I agree

Basically, there are two types of TCG cards, one that rewards you with a BoP item, and another with BoE. BoE items are permitted and encouraged, by Blizzard to be sold on the auction for gold, even though they may be obtained for real money. It is the same as the token, except the token is game-time, and not some pet or mount, or toy.

[Dhrizzle]

yes but still his scenario IS happening, most p2w games sell u shortcut time for items, not exclusive items by money, this system is dead since ages, all game that sell virtual goods just speed up things, like most famous Candy Crush

I've not actually played Candy Crush but I have played similar games and they have blatant p2w mechanics like allowing you to buy extra turns in a level and power-ups that give major advantages, and while those things technically can be gained for "free" in real terms they are gained so slowly they don't become a regular part of gameplay without paying.

[Empower]

The amusing part is that it is even irrelevant if you get any win/power or not. Because buying gold with a token in WoW does not directly provide a win/power.

So we are back to ignoring world first guilds buying gold again... do you ever get tired of copium?

Look people have accepted its pay to win. We are at the point we would just like the ads removed from group finder and trade.

[Elbob]

Paying to catch up is still an advantage... Putting you ahead of people who were your equals before you paid money to get ahead. No as long as its p2w for some its p2w, again, it doesn't matter if it affects you or not, it affects others. You are free to come up with a word for your own thing but p2w applies to any kind of advantage gained by paying.

The point of the hypothetical was to give you some perspective on other players(since apparently you only know how to talk about yourself), you didn't get the message so im just going to go ahead and not reply anymore since its pointless to talk to someone ignorant who only talks about himself...

"a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position."

If some one is behind they are not in a favorable or superior position. Using myself as a stand in for some hypothetical player doesn't matter. I understand my point from the perspective of anyone in the system and still agree with it. My definition does not use 'me' or 'I', soo to imply my definition is only about me seems odd counting i didn't even make the definition... google gave it to me.

Its odd that you are telling me to come up with my own word when you are the one avoiding the use of existing definitions to fit your own version. Your version of P2W including power at any level of the game just doesn't transfer well. If you could pay 1 dollar but any level 1 char you make from then on starts with gear with +1 stam instead of plain white gear would you consider wow P2W? Cause I mean you are stronger and have an 'advantage' over all the other level 1 chars, but for some reason I doubt anyone would care. I have a very clear line about what pushes a game from pay to catch up to pay to win. Yours seems more like a blurry space which is great for molding your own definitions to fit your argument but terrible for general discussions with people who disagree.