Should wow force you to learn the basics?

[Kralljin]

Yes, but it shouldn't be invasive.

A rotation helper simply requires a lot of maintenance, between class changes, legendaries, talents, etc.. it's a damn big hassle to properly maintain it, disregarding it how bad it would look if the communtiy figures out that the builtin rotation helper suggests something incorrect.

I think however that there needs to be something that helps new players to teach the basics, the jump from *playing WoW* to *playing WoW properly* is massive.
Already telling players that something such as "Focus Target" exists alongside macros / option to to target your focus with certain abilities without having them as your maintarget would go a long way.

Stuff like Mouseover macros is something you don't learn by just playing the game, despite them being utterly powerful, especially for healers.
I don't even want to know how many healers are still selecting their target manually and then heal them rather mouseover in their party / raidframe.

Blizzard should absolutely consider something akin to "how to basic" guide that frankly teaches players what sort of options exist for players to use, outside of the regular "select target, press keybind" functions.

[Thage]

Thing is, what you seem to be assigning to 'the basics' in this thread is intermediate knowledge. The basics is your 1-2-3 rotation, WASD movement, world/NPC interaction, and how to navigate core functions like your inventory, equipment interface, and talent selection. Exile's Reach more than suffices for teaching players the basics. Intermediate knowledge (utility, crowd control, major cooldowns, and more complicated systems) can and should be gotten naturally by experimenting while leveling up, but Blizzard does everything it can to discourage leveling up as a meaningful facet of gameplay. Classic WoW, while an easier, simpler iteration of the game, also took long enough to level up for most players (as in, not the sweaty ones who minmaxed their leveling route and hit 60 in the first couple days) that you had time and incentive to play around with skills outside your core rotation.

What the game should do, and I've been on this bicycle for a while, is do another major update to the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor to serve as an 'evergreen' 1-50 experience that feeds directly off the storyline from Exile's Reach. Don't slot it at any specific point in the storyline, so it works as the perpetual starting point that feeds right into the most current expansion from there with the previous expansion available via Chromie Time. Set up the new Kalim/EK so players have time and incentive to learn their spec's utility and more advanced systems without spoonfeeding them or handholding them through it*. This way you have a playerbase with a decent grasp on intermediate knowledge without needing to refer to external websites (which should be repositories for advanced knowledge like raid mechanics, swing timers, etc.).

*For example, on dinging 40 you won't get an overlay telling you about mouseover macros or castsequence, but a side quest may give you this overlay as it becomes relevant to the quest, and others could teach you to use your utility spells like Ice Block or Evasion.

[Trumpcat]

I think it should be in a tiered challenge-like form that is also required to access certain aspects of the game and which rewards you abundantly.

1. Exiles Reach for basics and accessing the rest of the game. It's already there. Rewards: Transmogs, starting gear, mount, pet, toys, small bags, gold.

2. Proving Grounds Silver to access higher content, maybe heroic dungeons and lfr? Rewards same as above but higher ilevel.
2.1 Proving Grounds Gold for prestige titles and cosmetics.

3. Mage Tower type of challenges for showing off skill with unique and distinguished cosmetic rewards and titles.

What's to stop the community from asking for mage tower completion in order to invite you in an m+ 2? Nothing. The community can do that currently with m+ rating. If it were not ratings it would be gear or raid boss kills or anything that can be used to measure some degree of skill and experience.

On the other hand... Those who want to perform well can do that and find ways and there is a huge range of online resources to do so. They don't need challenges and tutotials.

[Tazr]

There is no predatory direction in telling people to experience, try, or learn from others. That is what an MMORPG should be about, not about directing people how to play other than that of what mechanics of a boss fight offer you, the rest is up to the adventurer to figure out - and if needed, there are great communities for all classes, professions, and gameplay.

That would be your OPINION. And your opinion is very "elitest snowflake." Not everyone thinks or learns like everyone else. Way to have a selfish, ableist, "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" attitude. It doesn't work IRL, I don't know why you think it would be more viable in a video game.

I guess the problem is that you AREN'T thinking. You're just feeling, and not in a very emotionally intelligent way.

[rogoth]

There is no predatory direction in telling people to experience, try, or learn from others. That is what an MMORPG should be about, not about directing people how to play other than that of what mechanics of a boss fight offer you, the rest is up to the adventurer to figure out - and if needed, there are great communities for all classes, professions, and gameplay.

i would agree with that statement if this game was new, but it is so old now and had so many revisions in gameplay, there should be a mandatory tutorial 'scenario' for all class+specs to tell people how a spec is played out, or to allow old players who might come back, (that pool is getting smaller and smaller over time however), to get an idea of what has changed since they last played and how things work now, and if people wish to learn more and be better at the game then they can use these external community sites and resources to learn how to play 'better' than the basic tutorial would cover.

[loras]

Seems an odd topic to bring up but it is something I find myself thinking about now and then especially with mods like Hekili becoming more popular.

Should wow offer/incorporate a basic rotation helper into their game as a teaching tool for new players? There isn't really a lot of resources in game to figure out if you are doing something right or wrong these days and it seems to me at least an ideal way to get people started.

Honestly they should get rid of pure damage rotations altogether; leave that to auto attacks and spare people pointless carpal tunnel syndrome for the sake of this tedious nondifficulty.

Abilities can feed into one anothet of course, but honestly it should mainly be about meaningful decisions and reactions.

[Lochton]

That would be your OPINION. And your opinion is very "elitest snowflake." Not everyone thinks or learns like everyone else. Way to have a selfish, ableist, "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" attitude. It doesn't work IRL, I don't know why you think it would be more viable in a video game.

I guess the problem is that you AREN'T thinking. You're just feeling, and not in a very emotionally intelligent way.

So, by your comment, you do NOT wish to explore your game, nor wish to go through the experience of learning the game? You want a combo sheet at the desk, and a system to tell you what to do, instead of doing it yourself?

My comment goes for games and the online universe. The online world is NOT like the real world if you didn't know. There is no ableist comment in telling people to go explore, experience, learn. Everyone can do it, there is nothing stopping you unlike for some in the real world.

Even in the real world, one would wish to tell kids to get out climbing, rolling down the slopes, figure out how the square goes into the square hole, whatever. Instead, you want bubble wrap, red signs, and a guide to lead you through things that may take some time to learn. You going against such a view is like you disagreeing about textbooks at school. You can look up the answer and learn about it, but you want the teacher always near you to tell you and lead you. We have teachers for WoW, glorious people who make great guides (textbooks) that everyone can look up and reference if needed.

But don't worry. I hear you can get addons to tell you your rotation needed, and there are, of course, good old DBM (or whatever the other is called) that has become a basic tool for people to handle boss fights to the point that Blizzard believes they can make more out of the fights which are great.

i would agree with that statement if this game was new, but it is so old now and had so many revisions in gameplay, there should be a mandatory tutorial 'scenario' for all class+specs to tell people how a spec is played out, or to allow old players who might come back, (that pool is getting smaller and smaller over time however), to get an idea of what has changed since they last played and how things work now, and if people wish to learn more and be better at the game then they can use these external community sites and resources to learn how to play 'better' than the basic tutorial would cover.

There is an optional tutorial for it? I mean, we have it already. Wanna try out a character/class combo, go to your log-in and make a trial character for it. If you wanna practice your own, I believe proving ground is still a thing, and then you can look up guides to assist in choices and setups.

[rogoth]

So, by your comment, you do NOT wish to explore your game, nor wish to go through the experience of learning the game? You want a combo sheet at the desk, and a system to tell you what to do, instead of doing it yourself?

My comment goes for games and the online universe. The online world is NOT like the real world if you didn't know. There is no ableist comment in telling people to go explore, experience, learn. Everyone can do it, there is nothing stopping you unlike for some in the real world.

Even in the real world, one would wish to tell kids to get out climbing, rolling down the slopes, figure out how the square goes into the square hole, whatever. Instead, you want bubble wrap, red signs, and a guide to lead you through things that may take some time to learn. You going against such a view is like you disagreeing about textbooks at school. You can look up the answer and learn about it, but you want the teacher always near you to tell you and lead you. We have teachers for WoW, glorious people who make great guides (textbooks) that everyone can look up and reference if needed.


There is an optional tutorial for it? I mean, we have it already. Wanna try out a character/class combo, go to your log-in and make a trial character for it. If you wanna practice your own, I believe proving ground is still a thing, and then you can look up guides to assist in choices and setups.

right so by making a 'trial character' all you're getting is a max level character in basic gear that has stats 'suited' for that class, not actually spec specific stats, there's no actual tutorial in place for showing you HOW to use abilities, all it does is show you what abilities you have (not counting the borrowed power bullshit), so as far as a 'basics tutorial' is concerned it is sorely lacking, as to proving grounds, 2 things: 1) how in the fuck is a new player or someone who is coming back after a long hiatus supposed to know what that is and where it is to begin with, and 2) it is so badly outdated as it is locked to pandaria that it is useless for the point you're trying to make, ultimately the game would need to have a totally new tutorial system added into the 'starter player' experience and built from the ground up to make people aware that thanks to the whole 'borrowed power bullshit' it will change every expansion cycle and needs to kept up to date with that current expansion, which is obviously more work than blizzard are willing or even capable of doing if their last 5-6 years are anything to go by.

[kranur]

No. People should explore the game themselves.

Besides, just because you have x site telling you this or that is the best rotation doesn't mean it's the only and one way to play a spec.

[Lochton]

right so by making a 'trial character' all you're getting is a max level character in basic gear that has stats 'suited' for that class, not actually spec specific stats, there's no actual tutorial in place for showing you HOW to use abilities, all it does is show you what abilities you have (not counting the borrowed power bullshit), so as far as a 'basics tutorial' is concerned it is sorely lacking, as to proving grounds, 2 things: 1) how in the fuck is a new player or someone who is coming back after a long hiatus supposed to know what that is and where it is to begin with, and 2) it is so badly outdated as it is locked to pandaria that it is useless for the point you're trying to make, ultimately the game would need to have a totally new tutorial system added into the 'starter player' experience and built from the ground up to make people aware that thanks to the whole 'borrowed power bullshit' it will change every expansion cycle and needs to kept up to date with that current expansion, which is obviously more work than blizzard are willing or even capable of doing if their last 5-6 years are anything to go by.

You won't get a new tutorial system anyways due to the creation of the isle. I do not believe, nor do I think, there would be much time investment to permit a tutorial for the game to handhold through everything which the company could as well direct to current guides off, weather on MMO-C, WoWhead, or what other site. The game has reached an age where the most they see as a tutorial is currently what we have (And sorry, I thought you were still able to go talk to an NPC to be sent to Proving Grounds, you could during Legion).

[AngerFork]

See, this is why class quests are great in other games & used to be awesome in WoW. They teach you how to play your class in a short scenario set of quests as opposed to just dumping you out without training. WoW could really do with having those make a comeback nowadays.

I know a lot of people talk about the Order Halls from Legion, but I'd happily just take having those quest chains back that train & teach you the roles. I suspect a lot of players would be a bunch better with those as a constant part of the leveling experience.

[TheLucky1]

It wouldn't change anything, resources to "git gud" are plenty, easy to process and accessible like in no other game and never before, the largest part of players just chooses to ignore them/not care and that's okay.

Imo. these players will not change no matter how great the resources/tutorials in or out of the game, so anything more than the very basics which exiles reach and the pop up tutorials already teach is a waste of resources.

Funnily enough I've played with people who can afford to unnecessarily wipe and get angry at heroic bosses 2 evenings a week but will get defensive if you suggest them to look up these 5 minute guides that are visualized like a children book nowadays on mythictrap, "because I ain't got time for that crap".

[Lochton]

See, this is why class quests are great in other games & used to be awesome in WoW. They teach you how to play your class in a short scenario set of quests as opposed to just dumping you out without training. WoW could really do with having those make a comeback nowadays.

I know a lot of people talk about the Order Halls from Legion, but I'd happily just take having those quest chains back that train & teach you the roles. I suspect a lot of players would be a bunch better with those as a constant part of the leveling experience.

Don't get me wrong. I wholeheartedly support the return of class quests, and in an extension, Order Halls, but they are not the same as the OP sounds to be requesting.

[AngerFork]

Don't get me wrong. I wholeheartedly support the return of class quests, and in an extension, Order Halls, but they are not the same as the OP sounds to be requesting.

For sure, and I don't think a rotation helper would be a good thing to add to the game re-reading his post. But his subject line about learning the basics IMO leans more towards learning the true basics of a class...attacking from behind, how to properly stealth, etc. That stuff I'd love to see WoW work more on.

But as for a rotation helper & forcing people to learn the rotation to get to a certain point, that shouldn't be added by Blizz IMO. Leaves more room for player discovery that way.

[DazManianDevil]

It wouldn't change anything, resources to "git gud" are plenty, easy to process and accessible like in no other game and never before, the largest part of players just chooses to ignore them/not care and that's okay.

Imo. these players will not change no matter how great the resources/tutorials in or out of the game, so anything more than the very basics which exiles reach and the pop up tutorials already teach is a waste of resources.

Funnily enough I've played with people who can afford to unnecessarily wipe and get angry at heroic bosses 2 evenings a week but will get defensive if you suggest them to look up these 5 minute guides that are visualized like a children book nowadays on mythictrap, "because I ain't got time for that crap".

Yuuuuup. I refer to this as Heroicitis. Players who struggle to get AoTc by the final week of a patch, despite out gearing the content and raiding 6+hours a week.
"Hey, I'd like to help you understand the basics of your class, green parsing heroic at 240ilvl is not a good thing."
"Nah bro I'm good, I already raid 6+hrs a week and I'm top 5 dps every fight. I can't spend 10 minutes to look and realize I'm hot garbage. Gtfo you elitist snowflake."

[Local Skinwalker]

Not force you but should have something in place for people to learn
which it does
which is also good!

[Empower]

What are you even talking about? What does any of this have to do with what I said that you quoted? I never even mentioned covenants?

What absurd argument? That people should be free to play how they wish and that if they want to play a certain way the resources for learning that exist already?

I don't get what you're talking about here in the slightest, nor have any clue what any of it had to do with my comment.

I fear trying to break down even further woukd reduce it to such a simplistic level that the mods would consider it trolling.

My advice would be to just reread the post perhaps ask a loved one to help you along with it.

[Couchpotato2013]

Just keking at people who think the current in-game tutorials are at all good.

Only good training tutorial was mage tower (at any point especially for specs you never played). Sure you can claim youtube guides and everyone was rolling around with 960+ ilvl for all challenges (or AP steroid was active for all mage tower tries after the first rotation in early April 2017) but those people are wrong.

Getting into the driver seat in a challenge quickly taught myself and other people I talked to the little synergies and rate of flow, along with proper CC usage, that makes all what blizzard has offered thus far pitiful.

- - - Updated - - -

Yuuuuup. I refer to this as Heroicitis. Players who struggle to get AoTc by the final week of a patch, despite out gearing the content and raiding 6+hours a week.
"Hey, I'd like to help you understand the basics of your class, green parsing heroic at 240ilvl is not a good thing."
"Nah bro I'm good, I already raid 6+hrs a week and I'm top 5 dps every fight. I can't spend 10 minutes to look and realize I'm hot garbage. Gtfo you elitist snowflake."

Those people who can’t help that way. You need to place them in situations where they have to see how inadequate their performance has been, and to continue doing what they do is not acceptable.

Also I personally don’t tend to give remarks especially if you track parse history. If someone is making incremental progression upwardly even if starting at gray and are only currently low blue, that would be just a rude thing to bring up. Just ask them how they think they are getting better per week to explain why their parses are steadily improving, and what they think they have left to work on.

[CalamityHeart]

More tutorials? Maybe some advanced tips in-game or quests that could help people identify the nuances of their specs a bit better in an engaging way? Sure. That sounds awesome, why not?

A "rotation helper" in-game? Mm, nah. Sounds about as useful as there being an in-game link directly to Icy-Veins. I imagine they'd probably do it better than Blizzard could. The game should just teach you how to play it. Which it does, and simply enough at that. Teaching bad players how to be good players is a job that will always be best suited to good players, rather than the game itself. And at this point, the community has produced plenty of tools and compiled plenty of information for the rest of the community to consume and learn from when or if they want.

[Soon-TM]

No. I know that for some of the self styled elite here it might be a shocking discovery, but people have the right to be bad. That's why there is stuff such as achievements (although with the rampant boosting epidemic, it's hard to tell anymore) or r.io, so that you can keep those bad players outside your groups. But you can't, and more importantly, shouldn't tell everyone to Git Gud™ - if someone is interested in it, the available resources are more than enough.