Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Empower]

Can you actually point out where I said they do not? Seriously, can you? It is all in your head so it is impossible to address. The only one with the compium here is yourself who keeps attacking over things you've created even after you've been told you've created them. Buying gold is not pay to win, it is a micro transaction. Using that gold, as a normal part of the game economy, to aid your group (world first or server last) is still not pay to win. You paid for gold. The win is irrelevant to the main transaction.

The hoops you gotta jump through in this statement alone... gotta calm that mental dissidence down before it tears you apart.

[Drusin]

I guess a different question is should the WoW token be removed?

Do you think it would hurt or help the game?

I imagine carries would carry on like always.

I also expect quite a few would be upset they couldn’t play WoW for “free” anymore from token.

Well what would happen if you removed the token? Like you said people couldn't play for free anymore so some would quit, but would people return because the token is removed? The people that buy tokens to sell for gold will still want gold so bots would have more reason to bot again (not that they ever went away lol) so people would be back on the shady sides of the internet buying gold again. Less money for Blizz from tokens, I'm not sure what effect that would have on the game but less money is generally bad right? Carries are still going to happen as you said.

I can't think of any real definitive upside to removing tokens.

[M1r4g3]

Then again, outside unfairness could also be a streamer showered in gold by just appearing on a server, that is using IRL status after all?

I mean, i don't disagree, some games do enforce that.

Correct I don't see it as an advantage, just like I don't see a government aiding poor people in society being a "advantage". A person who makes less money isnt advantaged over a wealthier person paying more taxes. Helping the bottom keep up with the top doesn't make them superior to the top. The "in the prepatch" thing is some serious stretching and we both know it. Because the current expacs max level is not available yet doesn't mean its not the max for the expac. I could easily argue the prepatch is the previous expansion still since you can partake in it without purchasing the newest expac. Again not favor or superiority is gained, I can still point back to my original conditions.

It doesn't contradict it STILL. The advantage is the extra acquisition. Your raid can kill the boss and collect its 4 drops, you can then go to the store and buy a 5th, 6th... w/e amount and essentially gained more loot from a particular boss then is otherwise possible without paying. You have generated loot that other would not have existed... you now have a favorable position(advantaged) because you got more drops then possible. NEXT. Leveling is not the same as max level gear post expac launch it's effectively old content and don't allow boosting to max level until the expac is so old it leaves you hundreds of ilvl behind. (not advantaged)

Yes and again you keep talking about yourself and what YOU think, making it irrelevant.
You also keep changing your conditions depending on the situation, which defeats the purpose of a ''definition'' of anything.

You could also make an infinite amount of characters and keep farming the same raid for the same drops as the guy that bought the gear, making it infintie?

I don't think you understood the example with the classes well at all. It was used a descriptor of language not a 1 to 1 with p2w. Its about how choosing not to specify a more select grp(like level 10 hunters will never do more damage then level 60 warlocks), its safe to assume I mean all. Just like the google definition I linked didn't specify some non payers, its safe to assume it means ALL non payers. Using the definition that "$$ buys gold which buys power = p2w" doesn't work when there are people who can't buy power.(BiS slotted players can't pay for advantages on one another). So your description of wow would be "Its P2W for some people.... but not everyone"?

So yes the payer needs to have an advantage over EVERY non payer. Use of the word 'any' was part of the 'all' implying any selection from the all that voids or breaks the definition makes it not a good definition. Ex) Wow is p2w except for people that have gold already. Now to get ahead of the next logical leap - Yes a player can get gear but still not be more powerful or superior to some one who didn't use the store, but that acquisition(if its a normally finite source) is potentially favorable to anyone. If you are able acquire more gear then another player from a normally finite source you are in a favorable position regardless if you know how to use that gear. Gold doesn't have any in game acquisition limits so don't repeat that circle please.

Correct buying the raid gear is very different then stats on gear that has already been replaced by non paying players. The raid gear is finite in acquisition, green gear with +1 stam is not. Its about acquisition rates limited by the store/bosses that drop them. If it helps clear anything up if the gear was on vendors for a gold value it wouldn't be p2w either. It would be scummy and i'd hate it but not p2w.

Calling definition subjective when it can clearly plant things as a binary of p2w y/n is kinda xd yeah you have to look at each game to see if favor is gained just like you have to look at each game to see if power is gained.. I offered to let you come up with any example wow based or not and you passed, not sure if you couldn't or wouldn't. I also don't know if you can't or won't address my points but the circles are kinda getting silly. I will even grant you the last word to say whatever repeated points you want and I won't reply. (something you said you would do pages ago)

And il say it for 3rd time, even if we apply the ''needs to have an advantage over everyone'' you still lose, even if the advantage is minor/negligible/irrelevant to you, it still exists, and just by existing that makes it p2w. No one gives a shit that you don't care that limit buys gear with tokens and you buy it with gold, the end result is, limit spent irl money and acquired gold in a way which you Can Not which is pressing a game store button and getting instant gold, go ahead and try it yourself.
Your shitty arguments have so many holes in them and you keep constantly contradicting yourself running in circles from 1 post to another, i cant believe someone can be that dense, if your argument has that many holes and can be interpreted differently by different people its a shitty argument.
Give me proof that you can press the store button and acquire 300k gold every click without paying and your argument might become something more than a delusion.

[Beefhammer]

I don't agree with this logic, but that's okay. If I set that aside for a second, can you explain to me what *would* be p2w, or what *would* be a competitive advantage?

If I follow your logic, I'm not sure any game is capable of being P2W, unless paying was the only possible way to acquire/achieve anything. Am I getting that right?

Blizzard directly offering all raid gear for cash the day it opens instead of farming it or being able to purchase a the couple of slots BoEs drop for that may or may not be available on the AH the first few weeks of raiding. Offering PvP gear for cash the day a season starts instead of earning it.

[Itori]

I'm not even sure what you are trying to say. PvE is always competing against the computer. That is the "everyone" part. Leveling, or group play, is always against the computer. You seem to be implying that nothing can be pay to win unless it is PvP.

A level boost is paying to win. Buying gear would be paying to win. Buying gold is not paying to win. You never actually made commentary on those things.

You nitpicked a fraction of what I said and then tried to use that to make an argument? A level boost in an mmo is a common thing, there's not too many MMO's that don't sell those. GW2, LotRO, SWTOR, FFXIV, ect. ect. Boosts aren't pay to win, all they do is get you to max level to begin endgame, which in WoW's case is where the game really begins.

When WoW starts selling special gear in their shop that gives you -5ilvl off from the best gear in the game then come and talk. As of right now the only thing gold really gets you in this game is some weak starting gear that you're better off just going fresh into a raid or some mythics and getting gear.

[TheRevenantHero]

You nitpicked a fraction of what I said and then tried to use that to make an argument? A level boost in an mmo is a common thing, there's not too many MMO's that don't sell those. GW2, LotRO, SWTOR, FFXIV, ect. ect. Boosts aren't pay to win, all they do is get you to max level to begin endgame, which in WoW's case is where the game really begins.

When WoW starts selling special gear in their shop that gives you -5ilvl off from the best gear in the game then come and talk. As of right now the only thing gold really gets you in this game is some weak starting gear that you're better off just going fresh into a raid or some mythics and getting gear.

A level boost is 100% an advantage and a form of p2w. Buying character power with real money is textbook pay to win.

[rhorle]

You nitpicked a fraction of what I said and then tried to use that to make an argument?

Did you miss where I said I wasn't sure what point you were actually trying to make? Lol. It doesn't matter if a level boost is common or not. It still offers power for cash. Creating a subjective definition of relevancy for what constitutes "paying to win" means that nothing will ever be pay to win. Buying gear wouldn't be pay to win if it happens after the world first race is over. Because at that point everyone is "catching up".

It is also laughable that you think gold gets you weak starter gear. Buying gold isn't pay to win but gold can get you more then just weak starter gear. You also don't seem to understand what boost/carries are since people pay for others to get them that raid or mythic gear you say they are better off getting. When was the last time you actually played the game?

[sam86]

I've not actually played Candy Crush but I have played similar games and they have blatant p2w mechanics like allowing you to buy extra turns in a level and power-ups that give major advantages, and while those things technically can be gained for "free" in real terms they are gained so slowly they don't become a regular part of gameplay without paying.

so is getting gear without boost, it is way slower too

[HCLM]

I buy gold for WoW tokens that I use to buy gear from raid boosts. It's P2W and I'm fine with it, I have more money left over than I have time

U buy WoW tokens, u buy boost, and get gear, but u still will get outdps by anyone who knows how to play the game. Your point?

[crusadernero]

U buy WoW tokens, u buy boost, and get gear, but u still will get outdps by anyone who knows how to play the game. Your point?

Dunno what your point is. If your only metric in a MMORPG is "who does most dps", then anyone who buys token to pay for boosts, is p2w.

The wow token is nothing else than p2w, sanctioned by Blizzard. Theres no way around it. With the wow token you can get titles, mounts, achivments, gear. You can suck donkeykongballs and still obtain anything considered worthwhile and cool in game, by using your own money.

Ofc its not directly buying with real money, the token is there to cludder it.

[Daymanmb]

A level boost in an mmo is a common thing, there's not too many MMO's that don't sell those.

You realize that just makes those other MMOsp2w, right?

[confety]

Can i buy in game items with real money using an official system?

Yes

[threads]

winning in wow could be clearing a final raid boss, getting a bis item, getting difficult achievements, winning in arena.

all these things can be bought for money. so it is p2w.

[Ange]

Can i buy in game items with real money using an official system?

Yes

With power level multipliers embeded in timegated raiding, rare raid-drops and timegated gem upgrades and timegates legendary crafting...

What exactly do you get with getting a BoE drop for 4-10 TOKENS?

Gearing via vault is time gated, power level modifiers are heavyly time gated - you have to play regularly.

WoW is as far from P2W as possible the existence of tokens. Gold is not valuable outside of raiding and the expected spending for consumables and BoE's for progression advantages at the beginning of each tier/ilvl jump.

Even transmog, that could be made fully P2W without big issues, is highly restricted and most demanding items and achievements are moved to FoS and vanity status.

[Caradras]

Wow is pay 2 win now, i dont understand why there is a 120 page discussion about this?

[Femininity]

Wow is pay 2 win now, i dont understand why there is a 120 page discussion about this?

Because of the negative connotation associated with the label. There are those who go to bat ferociously for their beloved time sink.

[Dhrizzle]

Wow is pay 2 win now, i dont understand why there is a 120 page discussion about this?

Some of us remember when games were actually pay-2-win and gave an advantage non-paying players couldn't overcome, for example RIFT charging to unlock gear slots. These things where it saves you time levelling or grinding cash just aren't in the same league. It only gets called pay-2-win because the phrase has more emotional impact and YouTubers use it to get more clicks.

[Echo of Soul]

U buy WoW tokens, u buy boost, and get gear, but u still will get outdps by anyone who knows how to play the game. Your point?

What makes you think that I don't know how to play the game? Lots of players have the skill but not the time. Being able to pay to win is great for players like that because you end up on an even playing field with the ones who have both the skill and the time.

[Daymanmb]

Some of us remember when games were actually pay-2-win and gave an advantage non-paying players couldn't overcome, for example RIFT charging to unlock gear slots. These things where it saves you time levelling or grinding cash just aren't in the same league. It only gets called pay-2-win because the phrase has more emotional impact and YouTubers use it to get more clicks.

FIFA 2009 UT says hi. Pretty universally accepted as pay to win. Not only 2 years before RIFT, but doing exactly what you say isnt considered p2w /shrug

[Runicblood]

Imo "winning" in wow the process of progressing your character. Buying boosts and gear skips over the process of winning.

Put in other words, you pay for boosts to not have anything to do. Making you a loser in my book. Who wants to run out of content and then complain that the game doesn't offer content? Boosted nabs, that's who.