You decide: New class, Class skins, 4th specs, or New combos

[Triceron]

All you provided are armor and weapon excuses, not abilities. This is not about Tyrande's plate shoulders or longsword. It is about her healing capabilities.
Anduin still uses Priest abilities and Thrall still uses Shaman abilities.

PotM in WC3 don't heal, therefore I see no reason it needs representation.

If you were to say Druids heal then sure. Shamans heal, then yeah they do. PotM? They weren't healers in the game at all, and they represented the Sentinel elite which were all warrior/ranger types anyways. None of the female Sentinel units or heroes in WC3 healed

Again, Thrall has abilities not represented to. Sure, shaman abilities carried over, so where is Shaman using Feral Spirit?

Would you build an argument that Shamans do not represent Thrall, Farseers or Shamanism because they are missing Feral Spirit? Because that's how you're addressing POTM unable to be represented, even as far as using examples of abilities that they never had.

Thrall has Feral Spirit because he is Thrall. Not because all shamans use Feral Spirit. Shamans can be represented fully without it.

Tyrande has Light of Elune because she is Tyrande. Not because all PotM use Light of Elune. PotM can be represented fully without it.

Rinse and repeat with Monks and Brewmaster not having Wandering Keg. You're basically saying this ability from a non-canon source needs to be recognized otherwise we shouldn't call this class a Brewmaster. All I'm saying us you don't need it to have a Brewmaster, and representing the WC3 abilities is really all we need.

Logically speaking, I would apply all those external arguments to whether the WC3 hero represents the class without said ability.

Would Paladin be a Paladin if it didn't have heals? No, because the WC3 Paladin clearly had Holy Light. Would Priestess of the Moon still be a POTM if it didn't have heals? Yes, because it never had em in WC3, the source of the class concept.

[Teriz]

PotM in WC3 don't heal, therefore I see no reason it needs representation.

If you were to say Druids heal then sure. Shamans heal, then yeah they do. PotM? They weren't healers in the game at all, and they represented the Sentinel elite which were all warrior/ranger types anyways. None of the female Sentinel units or heroes in WC3 healed

Again, Thrall has abilities not represented to. Sure, shaman abilities carried over, so where is Shaman using Feral Spirit?

Would you build an argument that Shamans do not represent Shamanism because they are missing Feral Spirit that Thrall has? Because that's how you're addressing POTM unable to be represented, using examples of abilities that they never had.

Thrall has Feral Spirit because he is Thrall. Not because he is a Shaman and all shamans use Feral Spirit. Shamans can be represented fully without it.

Farseers use feral spirit, and farseers are Shaman.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Farseer

[DatToffer]

You don’t think it would be strange for Blizzard to allow Goblins, MGnomes, and Gnomes to be Druids when those races have nothing to do with nature? Hell, Goblins actively pollute the environment with reckless abandon.

Goblins were made shaman and hunter when they both had heavy ties to nature, though.

[Triceron]

Farseers use feral spirit, and farseers are Shaman.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Farseer

Exactly

I don't think Shaman class fails in representing farseers just because it is missing Feral Spirit.

[Teriz]

Goblins were made shaman and hunter when they both had heavy ties to nature, though.

Shaman have ties to the elements. It's a little different than nature, because not all elementals are nature friendly (see Dark Shaman). I'm not a fan of the lore of how Goblins are Shaman (making deals with the elements), I feel it's just silly. However, a case can be made for it since Goblins are natural deal makers.

The Elven side of Hunters is more tied to nature. The Dwarven side of Hunters is more industrial-based with guns instead of bows, so I can see why Goblins and Gnomes could be Hunters. Also you have Hunters that pretty much massacre hordes of animals which can make them enemies of Druids, as was the case with that Druid chain quest on Borean Tundra in WotLK.

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly

I don't think Shaman class fails in representing farseers just because it is missing Feral Spirit.

Am I missing something here?

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=51533/feral-spirit

[Triceron]

Am I missing something here?

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=51533/feral-spirit

I'm talking about Thrall's version, the spirit one that roots. It's also called Feral Spirit.

[Teriz]

I'm talking about Thrall's version, the spirit one that roots. It's also called Feral Spirit.

That's the HotS version of the spell. The Shaman version is based on the Farseer from WC3.

[FossilFree]

I feel like that has to fall into roleplay.

Any time that gets officially recognized through gameplay, it just gets janky as heck and doesn't work the way we expect it to. Kinda like if you want to be a Paladin who takes Necrolord covenant cuz you like the covenant power, but the game treats you like a Paladin who has turned to the dark side and treats you like a traitor and an evil-doer even though you're still playing the character as a good guy and you just want the cool ability.

I think they should give us more tools for roleplaying tbh. They could just do something simple like FF14's deity choice that has no impact on player power. Or they could allow you to pick your alignment and give each alignment a single passive ability that adds a little flavor to the choice.

Also, they could build on the Sylvanas loyalist design and give alternate paths to completing story content. Maybe the overall story doesn't change (or the outcome) by your choices, but you get unique rewards depending on which path you choose. This would probably have to be just for new content though.

However, I don't think they would totally overhaul all the old quests and story to make it so each small choice gradually moves your alignment in one direction or another. I would love it, but that would be quite a bit of retroactive work and be better for a brand new game.

[DatToffer]

Shaman have ties to the elements. It's a little different than nature, because not all elementals are nature friendly (see Dark Shaman). I'm not a fan of the lore of how Goblins are Shaman (making deals with the elements), I feel it's just silly. However, a case can be made for it since Goblins are natural deal makers.

The Elven side of Hunters is more tied to nature. The Dwarven side of Hunters is more industrial-based with guns instead of bows, so I can see why Goblins and Gnomes could be Hunters. Also you have Hunters that pretty much massacre hordes of animals which can make them enemies of Druids, as was the case with that Druid chain quest on Borean Tundra in WotLK.

Yeah elements are not nature, but emphasis was made on the idea that shamans had to respect the elements and the balance, in order to get them to act. Goblins respect none. Yet the lore around shamanism was made more flexible for them.

Hunters go the same way. They were tied to Nature before being opened to humans, undead, etc. Why ? Because before this point, you'd expect the race to be a descent candidate for all the three specs. And while most could fit the marksmanship archetypes, only a few had the nature bond to get the beastmaster aspect.

As for druidism, well. Unlike shamans they don't seem to need asking Nature approbation for their every move. More likely they are taught how to interact with environment and mimic animals.

If it's about mimicking, you get that pretty well with science. After all, goblins can be money priests and gnomes are working on light based tech.

If Kul tirans can do death druidism, let's have goblins do pollution druidism.

[FossilFree]

If it's about mimicking, you get that pretty well with science. After all, goblins can be money priests and gnomes are working on light based tech.

If Kul tirans can do death druidism, let's have goblins do pollution druidism.

I'd love a class skin for goblin and gnome priests that was a tech-based surgeon!

[DookuDookuTree]

Mostly I want mage battlemage tank.

[Samsara]

I actually had an idea a while ago to make both 4th specs combined with "class skins", it might have been a little restrictive in hindsight as the 4th spec was locked to a certain race in both A/H but its fun to have brainstorm

Basically these 4th specs would be mirrored with concepts and effects depending on the race, similar to BC paladins and heroism/BL, yet in function and numbers, the spec would be the exact same.

Human/Orc Warrior spec Duelist/Blademaster (dps spec, quick spec that specializes in 1v1 combat and confusing enemies with speed 2h or 1h weapon with no shield or offhand) Kultirans and Maghar can also be a skin of the spec

Dwarf/Tauren Hunter spec Mountain King/Totemic Chief (tank or dps spec a cross between arms warrior and survival hunter, petless spec, very resistant to damage) HMT and DID can also be a skin of the spec

Forsaken/Worgen Rogue spec Apothecary/Alchemist (Combat healer spec that combines a variety of vials and conconctions to make a versatile healer)

Troll/Night Elf Priest spec Shadow Hunter/Priestess of the Moon (priest dps spec that uses a combination of divine magic with ranged weapons) Void elves and nightborne can also be a skin of this spec

Gnome/Goblin mage spec Tinker (uses a variety of gadgets blurring the line between magic and technology, gizmos and weapons to wreak havoc on enemies, ranged/melee spec with lots of utility and curiosities) vulpera and mechagnomes can also be a skin of this spec

Blood Elf/Draenei Paladin Spec Spellbreaker/Vindicator (mobile dps melee spec that uses its holy powers to manipulate energy and overwhelm magical opponents, this one expands a bit on the original spellbreaker concept, making them instead of an anti-magic mage, an anti-magic paladin) LFD and Zandalari can also be a skin of this spec

[Three Faced Goddess]

Look out for Sylvanas' development.
Plus, Shadow Hunters have nothing to do with Dark Rangers. Don't mix the two.

Oh I know that. I was thinking in the sense of how Tauren Sunwalkers aren't really paladins in the same way that Dwarves, Humans, Draenei, LFD and Blood Elves are. But I do see your point. Sylvanas is getting a novel just like Arthas and Illidan did before their iconic hero classes were added.

[sam86]

Demon Hunters got 2 specs because there really isn't many places you can go with the concept without stepping on the toes of other classes. You couldn't make a demonic pet spec because that runs into Warlocks. You couldn't make a ranged spell based Demon Hunter because that again runs into Warlocks. You couldn't have a Shadow-based spec because that runs into Rogues and wouldn't play much differently than Havok.

They can create a 3rd melee dps spec, like they did to warrior and rogues and DK etc, if they are creative
but DH itself was born by cannibalize warlock demonology in first place

- - - Updated - - -

Oh I know that. I was thinking in the sense of how Tauren Sunwalkers aren't really paladins in the same way that Dwarves, Humans, Draenei, LFD and Blood Elves are. But I do see your point. Sylvanas is getting a novel just like Arthas and Illidan did before their iconic hero classes were added.

don't remind me
i think idea that tauren 'sun druids' who shouldn't be paladins blizz shoved it up our asses in Legion when we found tauren 'druids' involved in fucking paladin-class quests
I understand gameplay reasons, but they fucked lore itself when u find a 'druid' helping paladins, for fuck sake they were clear in cata that those are sun druids and lorewise they are treated as druids as they don't wear plate or even pray for holy light, it was just pure 'gameplay' purpose, how the fuck pure 'gameplay' fit when u find a fucking druid in ur class campaign acting like paladin talking like paladin and fighting like paladin? it was a disguised troll as cow?

[username993720]

Who said anything about "fitting an entire life realm into a single patch"? Not to mention that Blizzard has fit "an entire universe in a single patch" i.e. Legion's 7.3 patch, where we see Argus, and visit so many different planets in the cosmos. Or how "the entire Emerald Dream" was fit into a single raid?

That aside, we're talking about Elune, not an entire realm.

Elune is part of the entire realm. One of several eternals of the pantheon of Life. That's what they've been hinting at. pay closer attention to the lore direction.

Congratulations. You debunked yourself. Blindfolds for night elves does not break class fantasy nor does it make it a demon hunter, because blindfolds are not an exclusive feature to DHs like their horns, or druid antlers.

It's a tribute -_-
Never said it made you into a Demon Hunter.
You'd have to be crazy not to notice it.

PotM in WC3 don't heal, therefore I see no reason it needs representation.

If you were to say Druids heal then sure. Shamans heal, then yeah they do. PotM? They weren't healers in the game at all, and they represented the Sentinel elite which were all warrior/ranger types anyways. None of the female Sentinel units or heroes in WC3 healed

Again, Thrall has abilities not represented to. Sure, shaman abilities carried over, so where is Shaman using Feral Spirit?

Would you build an argument that Shamans do not represent Thrall, Farseers or Shamanism because they are missing Feral Spirit? Because that's how you're addressing POTM unable to be represented, even as far as using examples of abilities that they never had.

Thrall has Feral Spirit because he is Thrall. Not because all shamans use Feral Spirit. Shamans can be represented fully without it.

Huh? Shamans have Feral spirit.
Or, do you mean the WC3 unit? Because Thrall represents the Farseer.

Tyrande has Light of Elune because she is Tyrande. Not because all PotM use Light of Elune. PotM can be represented fully without it.

-_-

Tyrande has Light of Elune because she is a PotM. If you didn't get it, HotS characters are meant to expand upon those WC3 units.

Rinse and repeat with Monks and Brewmaster not having Wandering Keg. You're basically saying this ability from a non-canon source needs to be recognized otherwise we shouldn't call this class a Brewmaster. All I'm saying us you don't need it to have a Brewmaster, and representing the WC3 abilities is really all we need.

Monks have other keg abilities. So, while not all kegs are represented, there is keg representation. In contrast, if you leave out PotM healing abilities then there's no healing representation at all.

Logically speaking, I would apply all those external arguments to whether the WC3 hero represents the class without said ability.

Would Paladin be a Paladin if it didn't have heals? No, because the WC3 Paladin clearly had Holy Light. Would Priestess of the Moon still be a POTM if it didn't have heals? Yes, because it never had em in WC3, the source of the class concept.

Some of WC3 is outdated, that's why you don't see certain abilities carried over to HotS, like Searing Arrow. We can't take WC3 at face value, because while Dark Rangers, for example, had Black Arrow which raised an undead minion back then, this is probably not the case anymore.

I'm talking about Thrall's version, the spirit one that roots. It's also called Feral Spirit.

Those are little details. He still summons a wolf. And you can sort of get that look with Elemental Spirits.

Oh I know that. I was thinking in the sense of how Tauren Sunwalkers aren't really paladins in the same way that Dwarves, Humans, Draenei, LFD and Blood Elves are. But I do see your point. Sylvanas is getting a novel just like Arthas and Illidan did before their iconic hero classes were added.

And new abilities.

[Cosmic Janitor]

don't remind me
i think idea that tauren 'sun druids' who shouldn't be paladins blizz shoved it up our asses in Legion when we found tauren 'druids' involved in fucking paladin-class quests
I understand gameplay reasons, but they fucked lore itself when u find a 'druid' helping paladins, for fuck sake they were clear in cata that those are sun druids and lorewise they are treated as druids as they don't wear plate or even pray for holy light, it was just pure 'gameplay' purpose, how the fuck pure 'gameplay' fit when u find a fucking druid in ur class campaign acting like paladin talking like paladin and fighting like paladin? it was a disguised troll as cow?

They just didn't have that many options, at the end it might have been a better idea to give it to forsaken tbh, given how they treated Faol in the end anyway. In general the way Blizzard treats racial classes is extremely jarring and lazy. "This race is actually this, but gameplay, you know". If they want a strong class idenity, then they should either treat the player as a special case or make up a story why nelfs worship the light as priests, instead of saying they are moonpriestesses in disguise.

[Teriz]

They can create a 3rd melee dps spec, like they did to warrior and rogues and DK etc, if they are creative
but DH itself was born by cannibalize warlock demonology in first place

Yeah, but the Warrior specs were separated between 2h and DW (and DW with 2h via Titan's Grip). Demon Hunters only DW, so that really wasn't an option.

I do agree that the DH came out of the gate cannibalizing other class features, so Blizzard didn't have much to work with from the start. With that said, other future class options don't have those limitations.

[Triceron]

Monks have other keg abilities. So, while not all kegs arerepresented, there is keg representation. In contrast, if you leave out PotM healing abilities then there's no healing representation at all.

But that aspect has never existed on the POTM's gameplay in WC3, not in WoW now, and certainly does not reflect the Night Warrior which you want to fold into this concept.

The question of whether a POTM is represented without group stealth and heals is already defined by Warcraft 3. Expanding that representation is a completely different discussion.

Besides, as a class with defined roles, where do you fit healing? It would have to fit in a full healing spec. POTM as a Hunter class skin is defined as a DPS spec, so it'd be fine without heals.

The alternative is a Priest class skin POTtM option, which frankly can exist alongside the Hunter variation given that visuals can be carried over. I think that's a separate discussion though, unless we're implying a Class Skin to work more similarly to my Echo Skin idea where we have one Class Skin that combines multiple classes and retains their full spec gameplay, simply with different visuals (and in this particular example, no new spec or gameplay changes at all)

[Ielenia]

Elune is part of the entire realm. One of several eternals of the pantheon of Life. That's what they've been hinting at. pay closer attention to the lore direction.

This is super ironic. It doesn't matter if Elune is "part of the entire realm", just the butler of the realm, or just a single spec of dust of "that entire realm". Elune's realm is irrelevant because, again, we're talking about Elune, not the realm she's part of.

It's a tribute -_-
Never said it made you into a Demon Hunter.
You'd have to be crazy not to notice it.

Wearing a blindfold does not make you into a demon hunter. Having black eyes does make you into a night warrior.

-_-

Tyrande has Light of Elune because she is a PotM. If you didn't get it, HotS characters are meant to expand upon those WC3 units.

No. No, they're not. They're based of characters, not units.

[username993720]

But that aspect has never existed on the POTM's gameplay in WC3, not in WoW now, and certainly does not reflect the Night Warrior which you want to fold into this concept.

The question of whether a POTM is represented without group stealth and heals is already defined by Warcraft 3. Expanding that representation is a completely different discussion.

Besides, as a class with defined roles, where do you fit healing? It would have to fit in a full healing spec. POTM as a Hunter class skin is defined as a DPS spec, so it'd be fine without heals.

The alternative is a Priest class skin POTtM option, which frankly can exist alongside the Hunter variation given that visuals can be carried over. I think that's a separate discussion though, unless we're implying a Class Skin to work more similarly to my Echo Skin idea where we have one Class Skin that combines multiple classes and retains their full spec gameplay, simply with different visuals (and in this particular example, no new spec or gameplay changes at all)

That's where we come into a problem.
Currently, Tyrande have been shown to ranged DPS, Melee DPS heal. So, we don't really know what role exactly they are going for.

This is super ironic. It doesn't matter if Elune is "part of the entire realm", just the butler of the realm, or just a single spec of dust of "that entire realm". Elune's realm is irrelevant because, again, we're talking about Elune, not the realm she's part of.

Nothing you said make sense.
Of course it matters, they even bolded the sentence "PANTHEON OF LIFE". They're hinting at it featuring sometime in the future. And, as Elune is established as a Life being, she's going to appear there as one of the Eternals.

Wearing a blindfold does not make you into a demon hunter. Having black eyes does make you into a night warrior.

No, it isn't.
It means you were under the black moon in darkshore during the Night Warrior ritual. Do you get special abilities alongside, like Tyrande does? Do any of the Night elves who get black eyes have Tyrande-like capabilities? It's just a side effect of the ritual.

No. No, they're not. They're based of characters, not units.

-_-

Look at their abilities.