Deleting emotions: facade and blaming players for being toxic?

[WowIsDead64]

My theory is - roadside-riders and wrongside-riders only appear where traffic-jams are. And drivers can't be blamed for traffic jams. Authorities should be. And if authorities do nothing with this problem, then drivers have to adapt and do the same, cuz otherwise they would suffer. At the end all drivers start to do wrong things. And even more. It's wrong to shut them up and take their horns away, so they won't be able to be "toxic" vs each other, in order to "fix" this problem. It's just facade. Illusion of actions.

Example: I was against ninja-looting back in old times. But Blizzard did nothing to prevent ninja-looters from doing it. So I adapted and started to ninja-loot too, because otherwise I would be in constant lose position vs other players. Can I be blamed for becoming ninja-looter? Was it me, who was wrong in this situation? Only possible solution - was personal loot. Some people would say, that personal loot is anti-social and that it should be players, who should be blamed for implementing it. But is it true?

What do you think? Who should be blamed for toxicity in Wow? "Toxic" community? Or developers, who've created conditions for toxicity to grow like cancer in this game?

My own opinion: major source of toxicity in this game - is overusing of competitive content (even in PVE, that should be about cooperation - not competition), that is based on dog-eats-dog principles. Players just have to become toxic vs each other, otherwise they would be "weak" and fall into lose position. That's, what should be fixed. Not band-aiding via removing some emotions, that are just consequence of problem - not it's cause.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Where is the "both" option?

Cause it isn't a cut-and-dry issue where the blame lies solely on one party. Both the community and Blizzard have contributed to the problem. I think anyone who believes it to be a binary scenario has an excessively simplistic or naive perspective on a multifaceted problem.

[Kumorii]

Players. This idea that "others made me do it" is just avoiding personal responsibility.
The other players were wrong, and so were you when you started to do it. It's understandable why someone does it, doesn't change the agency of your own actions though.
You are accountable for your own actions.

You can always not do something due to your own principles. This isn't much difference than saying "it's this bad players fault why I rage at him /her" etc etc.
This is how people cope with their own behaviour rather than facing it

[BobAwesome]

wtf does "roadside-riders and wrongside-riders only appear where traffic-jams are." even mean?


Also, "So I adapted and started to ninja-loot too"


uh... anything else you wanna get off your chest?

[Lochton]

In the final moment, the toxicity is brewed by the communities within the game. "Conditions for toxicity" in the end, demands the player take the final steps of becoming the toxic problem. And who decides for such conditions, as toxicity brews differently within every human being.

[Dancaris]

Toxicity has reason, and that reason is absolute impunity ingame. You can be crazy mf, ganking and ninja-looting and be just fine. You can butthurt in chat all day, and all your punishment is none. Blizz have nothing to do with that.
Humans are jerks, fresh news, everyone!

[WowIsDead64]

Players. This idea that "others made me do it" is just avoiding personal responsibility.
The other players were wrong, and so were you when you started to do it. It's understandable why someone does it, doesn't change the agency of your own actions though.
You are accountable for your own actions.

You can always not do something due to your own principles. This isn't much difference than saying "it's this bad players fault why I rage at him /her" etc etc.
This is how people cope with their own behaviour rather than facing it

Core idea: if other players do something wrong and I don't - then I'm in lose position. For example if I do quest and somebody starts to AOE pull my mobs to do quest faster than me and devs do nothing to fix this problem - I have to adapt and do the same, no matter if it's "toxic" behavior or not. Overall way too COMPETITIVE DESIGN of this game (even in PVE, that should be about COOPERATION - not competition) - is core source of toxicity in this game. Not some "toxic" emotions. When players have to constantly compete with each other for everything, they just have to become more "hard" vs others, otherwise they would lose. You should understand, that whole competitive content is based on dog-eats-dog principles. THAT'S, what should be fixed.

[sensei]

Core idea: if other players do something wrong and I don't - then I'm in lose position. For example if I do quest and somebody starts to AOE pull my mobs to do quest faster than me and devs do nothing to fix this problem - I have to adapt and do the same, no matter if it's "toxic" behavior or not. Overall way too COMPETITIVE DESIGN of this game (even in PVE, that should be about COOPERATION - not competition) - is core source of toxicity in this game. Not some "toxic" emotions. When players have to constantly compete with each other for everything, they just have to become more "hard" vs others, otherwise they would lose. You should understand, that whole competitive content is based on dog-eats-dog principles. THAT'S, what should be fixed.

Yeah, I mean if you're working a 9 to 5 job and making $20 an hour and some other guy is selling crack and making $10,000 a day you should sell crack too. If you don't then you'll be in a losing position. If they didn't want you to sell crack then they would just make everything free and take the competitive nature of making money out of the equation. It's society's fault if you end up selling crack like everyone else.

[Kumorii]

Core idea: if other players do something wrong and I don't - then I'm in lose position. For example if I do quest and somebody starts to AOE pull my mobs to do quest faster than me and devs do nothing to fix this problem - I have to adapt and do the same, no matter if it's "toxic" behavior or not. Overall way too COMPETITIVE DESIGN of this game (even in PVE, that should be about COOPERATION - not competition) - is core source of toxicity in this game. Not some "toxic" emotions. When players have to constantly compete with each other for everything, they just have to become more "hard" vs others, otherwise they would lose. You should understand, that whole competitive content is based on dog-eats-dog principles. THAT'S, what should be fixed.

Yeah, you said this in your original post. I stand by what I said. You doing it is on you.
I don't agree that everything is based on dog-eats-dog principles. You conflate what idiotic or "toxic" people do with what's encouraged. Toxic people exist in everything, no matter how something is designed. You can't get away from it. Only way to reduce toxic behaviour is to not add to it. If you do, you are part of the problem.
I understand why you felt you needed to do ninja loot or whatever. Doesn't change the fact that YOU made that choice. No matter how you justify it. The agency is all on you. You say you feel like you have to, and here I am who never felt like I had to be toxic anywhere. Did bad things happen to me? Sure. It happens to everyone at some point. And i'm not saying I'm a saint, I've done bad things and I've lost my temper, I'm human after all. Just don't blame it on others if you keep doing so.
What makes it wrong and what makes it that you escape responsibility is the fact that if you pre-emptively ninja loot (because you have to otherwise you can't ninja loot) you are most likely doing it against people who wouldn't ninja loot. If someone does it to you and you manage to do it against the same player... fair game I would say. If you however just start ninja looting, period. Then yeah, you are in the wrong. Because this just causes a cycle where those people YOU wrong also can feel justified in doing so. They might ninja loot you next time and you just think "see this is why I ninja loot".

You're getting beaten up? Sure, fight back, punch them and beat them until submission so you can free yourself from it. Go around and starting beating other people up and then say "well, this other guy made me do it" is just... weird.

The only thing the mentality of "everyone else is doing it, thus I should" is creating is more toxic behaviour. Self-fulfilling prophecy, you think everyone is toxic, so now you treat everyone as if they are by ninja looting.

[mysticx]

The problem is twofold:

1: People are bastards when they can get away with it.
2: Because policing everything in-game is an immense labour-intensive (And as such, expensive) task, people can get away with it.

Combine the two, and you have pretty much every online game (I'm sure somebody will chime in with "Not [Game title]!") in the business.

[Voto]

Toxic systems select for toxic players and against healthy interactions.

It is 100% a design failure that's on the developers.

Yelling "personal responsibility" just reveals ignorance of how systems work.

And yes, WoW is full of systems that reward exploiting others and punish being nice, even in PvE.

It's not rocket science to figure out what kind of community that ends up creating.

[VinceVega]

An online game where you have the possibility to play with people you NEVER meet again will always and forever have some degree of toxicity.

And compared to other games with that... damn wow is a freaking save haven with rainbows and sparkles.


In my whole time playing classic back in the day i maybe had one ninja looter... People tend to make problems bigger than they are. And then overreeact. Like you OP.

Someone did something bad. You say fuck it and do the same. There is nothing the devs can do if you do not care about other players.

As for competition vs cooperation. ALSO your choice. You do not have to compete in anything. There are more than enough players/guilds/groups out there who just play the game to play the game. We raided mythic but we did not care where we stand compared to other guilds.

If you make it a competition it is your fault. You do not get ANYTHING for being better then someone in another group. Well... except in PvP but it is PVP after all...

[Mendzia]

How about... just not caring at all when sombody 'spits' on you in online game?
It started when they added another $$ mount to the shop.
Nobody was offended before this.

[Ladey Gags]

What the hell, this whole situation has nothing to do with WoW’s toxic community in the first place. That the discussion has shifted to that is evidence that blizzard’s deliberately placed red herring worked.

They’ve successfully diverted the attention from their highly toxic WORKPLACE onto the toxic playerbase. Lmao, you’ve all been PLAYED

WAKE UP

[Louz]

I blame thin-skinned crybabies - or more precisely, crybullies, as is trendy these days, especially with twitter involved.

The game is really going to shit.

What's next, the PvP flags you plant into other player's corpses?

Is world PvP going to be disabled completely, because it enables toxicity? Yes, you can opt out of it by turning it off - but then you can opt out of these bad emotes by putting the evildoer on ignore.

[Ryzeth]

"Blame players for being toxic"

Who the fuck else's fault would it be, that someone decides they're gonna be a piece of shit to others? Seriously.
Self-reflection is something that so many WoW players sorely need to fucking do.

[WowIsDead64]

Yeah, I mean if you're working a 9 to 5 job and making $20 an hour and some other guy is selling crack and making $10,000 a day you should sell crack too. If you don't then you'll be in a losing position. If they didn't want you to sell crack then they would just make everything free and take the competitive nature of making money out of the equation. It's society's fault if you end up selling crack like everyone else.

Exactly. If nobody would put you into jail for doing it - you WOULD do it. Jail - is keyword here. If game design not only refuses to prevent players from doing bad things, but also rewards them for doing it - then they will continue doing it. And other players will have to adapt and start doing the same, otherwise they would lose. Remember, why flying is removed from current content?

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, you said this in your original post. I stand by what I said. You doing it is on you.
I don't agree that everything is based on dog-eats-dog principles. You conflate what idiotic or "toxic" people do with what's encouraged. Toxic people exist in everything, no matter how something is designed. You can't get away from it. Only way to reduce toxic behaviour is to not add to it. If you do, you are part of the problem.
I understand why you felt you needed to do ninja loot or whatever. Doesn't change the fact that YOU made that choice. No matter how you justify it. The agency is all on you. You say you feel like you have to, and here I am who never felt like I had to be toxic anywhere. Did bad things happen to me? Sure. It happens to everyone at some point. And i'm not saying I'm a saint, I've done bad things and I've lost my temper, I'm human after all. Just don't blame it on others if you keep doing so.
What makes it wrong and what makes it that you escape responsibility is the fact that if you pre-emptively ninja loot (because you have to otherwise you can't ninja loot) you are most likely doing it against people who wouldn't ninja loot. If someone does it to you and you manage to do it against the same player... fair game I would say. If you however just start ninja looting, period. Then yeah, you are in the wrong. Because this just causes a cycle where those people YOU wrong also can feel justified in doing so. They might ninja loot you next time and you just think "see this is why I ninja loot".

You're getting beaten up? Sure, fight back, punch them and beat them until submission so you can free yourself from it. Go around and starting beating other people up and then say "well, this other guy made me do it" is just... weird.

The only thing the mentality of "everyone else is doing it, thus I should" is creating is more toxic behaviour. Self-fulfilling prophecy, you think everyone is toxic, so now you treat everyone as if they are by ninja looting.

There is always some "patience threshold". You don't even know, for how long I have been fighting with ninja-looters before giving up. And some players would even say, that such "windmills fighting" is pointless - just do, what is effective and have some fun, instead of gimping yourself. For example you can bear standing in daily 2 hour traffic jams due to roadside-riders for how many days before deciding, that you should stop this mockery and follow them? One? Two? Week? You imply, that people should have some sort of infinite patience. No one have it. And Wow has had this broken design for YEARS. No one can bear it for so long. He would either quit or become toxic too.

[potis]

I blame thin-skinned crybabies - or more precisely, crybullies, as is trendy these days, especially with twitter involved.

The game is really going to shit.

What's next, the PvP flags you plant into other player's corpses?

Is world PvP going to be disabled completely, because it enables toxicity? Yes, you can opt out of it by turning it off - but then you can opt out of these bad emotes by putting the evildoer on ignore.

Pretty much spot on, thin-skinned crybabies has always been the issue, or entitled snowflakes that refuse to accept they are bad at one more thing in their life, so everyone pointing anything out is toxic.

There are times where some people are seriously mentally deranged but you cant even tell apart anymore because even if you say "Run against the wall to skip this pack", you are labelled toxic for wanting people to know how to press W.

[M1r4g3]

Don't see why you even made a poll when its the devs fault 100% of the time(well a bit less since outliers exist, like people with mental illnesses, extreme home/work/social environements etc.). If you disagree then what you're basically saying is being an asshole is baked into peoples dna and not due to the environment they grew up in/live in.

"Blame players for being toxic"

Who the fuck else's fault would it be, that someone decides they're gonna be a piece of shit to others? Seriously.
Self-reflection is something that so many WoW players sorely need to fucking do.

Why tho? Can you give a good reason as to why any person would care? And try and answer that without imposing your own values on others.

[Asrialol]

If drivers drove efficiently and in synchronization, traffic jams would only occur if the infrastructure was really bad. Most traffic james happen because people don't drive efficiently. One person breaks more than necessary and it creates a bungee effect that can go on for quite some time.

Roads are roads. They don't create toxicity. It's an interesting example, since a toxic driver will in almost every case create, or increase, a traffic jam.

The game doesn't create toxicity. That has always been a thing when people converse on the internet. Doesn't matter if it's in a game, forum, social media, etc.