The Blood Elves discussion thread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well said on both fronts. You make a good point about the scope of customisation for Kaldorei and Forsaken. I hope that Thalassians will continue to have customisation options added to allow us players to make our characters of different classes more distinct from one another.

And I think you make a very strong point about arcane being largely in the past for the Kaldorei. But, as I said to Mace, I think it would be cool to increase the scope for night elf players to make Highborne mages.

I mean that's the thing; I really do love highborne aesthetics, but I have to separate that from the understanding that it just really isn't the predominant aesthetic of Night Elves as a whole, specially Darnassian, who are the playable ones we have. The fact that Highborne have rejoined the Darnassian NE's does give us a lot of room to re-introduce highborne aesthetics back to the mainstream NE society, but considering they are just a part of a whole, it simply wouldn't overtake what have been NE aesthetics for the last 10k years.

My perfect scenario would be a Highborne city restored by the night elves, that would serve as a crystalization of modern highborne aesthetics, but just like Dalaran is a culture-specific human city, this city would be more of an outlier of the mainstream Night Elven society.

Darnassian Night Elven culture doesn't have to, nor should, be defined by Highborne aesthetics when to most NE that's their past; that, of course, doesn't negate the modern existence of a segment of that society that does. That SHOULD be reflected through player aesthetics and in game assets, but there's just such a huge difference between "yes, Night Elves should have a highborne aesthetic aspect as part of their culture" and the idea that Night Elves would need to return to a highborne aesthetic as a whole for any reason.

Suramar as a city is just so removed from Darnassian Night Elven cultural aesthetics that it's like saying every human kingdom should look like Kul'tiras or Dalaran.

[Ardenaso]

What do you think are missed opportunities for the Blood Elves, in terms of advancing their story or explore their culture or developp their relations with other races ?

They should have confronted the Argent Crusade and demand reparations and amends at some point, considering that they're literally the closest descendants of Garithos' New Alliance Remnants. I mean, Liadrin got to hold the Ashbringer and perhaps returned it to them (if the player isn't a Paladin) and she definitely got word of Garithos' cruelty to Kael'thas and his brethren from Rommath.

Another one is perhaps Blood Elves/San'layn/Forsaken who were part of Arthas' 1st Legion interacting with each other; would be a very nice callback to WC3 and very nice touch for that to happen

[Three Faced Goddess]

A response that shows you read nothing of what I said.

Why do you always do this? If you are going quite the whole block, then at least read it.

- - - Updated - - -



So let’s only talk about thing we all agree on? Fine I’ll be quiet and let your topic die again

That's not what I was saying. Disagreement is fine. But I doubt you are going to convince people to not want things they want based on what you believe Blood Elves should or shouldn't have. I have nothing against you and in fact, quite liked your post about how no race really has monopoly on anyone theme.

[Mace]

That's not what I was saying. Disagreement is fine. But I doubt you are going to convince people to not want things they want based on what you believe Blood Elves should or shouldn't have. I have nothing against you and in fact, quite liked your post about how no race really has monopoly on anyone theme.

Oh, I know that, wasn't trying to even convince them, I was operating in the spirit of open discourse, highlighting such a feautre didn't fit blood elves like it did void/high elves, and as mentioned this was in part because of how negatively such a cusotmisation was received by the blood elf community a year ago, when it was proposed, they wanted more pristine "magister" like options, not scruffy farstrider/in the wild .

I wasn't trying to convince them they shouldn't want something - that's not my style, nor was i trying to convince them it was wrong or bad, i actually agree with the. But I said it all in the previous replies.

[Thalassian Bob]

I mean that's the thing; I really do love highborne aesthetics, but I have to separate that from the understanding that it just really isn't the predominant aesthetic of Night Elves as a whole, specially Darnassian, who are the playable ones we have. The fact that Highborne have rejoined the Darnassian NE's does give us a lot of room to re-introduce highborne aesthetics back to the mainstream NE society, but considering they are just a part of a whole, it simply wouldn't overtake what have been NE aesthetics for the last 10k years.

My perfect scenario would be a Highborne city restored by the night elves, that would serve as a crystalization of modern highborne aesthetics, but just like Dalaran is a culture-specific human city, this city would be more of an outlier of the mainstream Night Elven society.

Darnassian Night Elven culture doesn't have to, nor should, be defined by Highborne aesthetics when to most NE that's their past; that, of course, doesn't negate the modern existence of a segment of that society that does. That SHOULD be reflected through player aesthetics and in game assets, but there's just such a huge difference between "yes, Night Elves should have a highborne aesthetic aspect as part of their culture" and the idea that Night Elves would need to return to a highborne aesthetic as a whole for any reason.

Suramar as a city is just so removed from Darnassian Night Elven cultural aesthetics that it's like saying every human kingdom should look like Kul'tiras or Dalaran.

Agreed. I would happily see Eldre'Thalas restored and made into a new secondary Kaldorei hub. Although, after the loss of Teldrassil it might need to become the primary hub... That could be a nice way for some of the more prudish night elves to warm up to Highborne arcane users. In the time jump between BfA and the expansion after SL, the Highborne could have begun rebuilding Eldre'Thalas and they could have invited the night elves to join them in that endeavour and create a shared home together.

[Mace]

Mace, I mean this in the kindest way possible but the length of your posts makes it very difficult to face putting together a suitable response. I understand that you're passionate about a playable race you love and want to see it fleshed out in such a way as to fulfil your vision for that race but, gosh, that's a lot to unpack!

I would support more representation of the Highborne fantasy in future Kaldorei lore and for player customisation. However, if this came at the expense of the blood elves or Nightborne in, say, losing Silvermoon or Suramar, I would vehemently oppose it. If it meant to rebuilding Eldre'Thalas and turning it into a Highborne Kaldorei hub, I would happily support that.

I would agree with MyLifeisThunder though in saying that the modern night elves are not an arcane focused group. Highborne elves, who are almost identical to them, however, are. And I would happily see the highborne get more representation in NPCs and lore. But the followers of Tyrande and Malfurion are not - and should not be shown to be - enthusiasts for arcane magics.

I think we both agree that the more customisation every race has access to (within reason regarding lore) is a good thing. I want both blood and void elves to have access to majestic and rustic aesthetics and I support your call for more Highborne options for playable Kaldorei.

.

I support this at large, though i disagree with your comment on Tyrande and Malfurion, because the lore shows them in favour of this - they are often misunderstood, part of the night elven nuances is the backlsash against arcane magic, championed by Maiev as a seaparte issue to general phobia, which recent events necessitate further changes to.

Night elf lore is not simple, it is complex and nuanced, this is why they are described as enigmatic and the lore reflects this, whiles we don't need followers of the druids or the priests to be pro arcane, they can exist like the demon hunters, i.e. a separate group, with complete customisation , their own city and aesthetic that is kaldorei civilization based, but to be honest.. the opposite are really nature and arcane, forest and city.. the priest hood actually works well in both settings.

And it's not that nature is opposed or anti-thetical to arcane or hates it.. quite the opposite, they are just contrasting and at opposite ends. This is from the lore and tyrande/Malfurion's reaction to the shen'dralar etc reflects this appropriately, though I would like to see more.


Save for that specific comment, the spirit of what you said is actually what i've wanted for elves all along. An feel is a much better approach than what the community in the past had wanted

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Agreed. I would happily see Eldre'Thalas restored and made into a new secondary Kaldorei hub. Although, after the loss of Teldrassil it might need to become the primary hub... That could be a nice way for some of the more prudish night elves to warm up to Highborne arcane users. In the time jump between BfA and the expansion after SL, the Highborne could have begun rebuilding Eldre'Thalas and they could have invited the night elves to join them in that endeavour and create a shared home together.

Yeah, I really like the idea of a Highborne city (particularly Eldre'Thalas because of its positioning) being rebuilt, NE's need to have a strong presence in southern Kalimdor, cause it really feels like Feathermoon Stronghold by itself isn't doing it.

I do believe the primary NE hub has to bee on Northern Kalimdor tho, be it Hyjal, Darkshore or Ashenvale. After reclaiming their forest, it really makes more sense to start rebuilding. my perfect scenario would be Auberdine being rebuilt as their major city; it would give them a coastal city, in the mainland.

TBH I don't really like the idea of NE's reclaiming old Highborne ruins as their new Home City because I feel that thematically, what they need is to rebuild their culture and way of life they have had for the last 10k years, not abandon that in favor of the old. I just think NE's need a "New City" in order to look to the future -that's what I liked of Teldrassil conceptually, even tho it was bogged down by the decision of making a new world tree to build it upon-

Tho why I would like a new NE Home City in the place of Auberdine, I would love if the Highborne specifically reclaimed the Ruins of Mathystra in Darkshore.

I think that's my basic point of view; I don't think Night Elves as a whole should reclaim highborne ruins, as a society they have moved past that. But the Highborne, as a segment of the very same NE culture, should be able to reclaim their past if they want to, and what I would love would be if mainstream Darnassian society understood and supported that, so while most of the culture retains its druidic aesthetic and themes as central, there is room for highborne reclamation as a part of the whole of their identity.

[Three Faced Goddess]

Oh, I know that, wasn't trying to even convince them, I was operating in the spirit of open discourse, highlighting such a feautre didn't fit blood elves like it did void/high elves, and as mentioned this was in part because of how negatively such a cusotmisation was received by the blood elf community a year ago, when it was proposed, they wanted more pristine "magister" like options, not scruffy farstrider/in the wild .

I wasn't trying to convince them they shouldn't want something - that's not my style, nor was i trying to convince them it was wrong or bad, i actually agree with the. But I said it all in the previous replies.

Then it appears that I mistook you. I am sorry. I'm one of the Blood Elf players who wanted rougher, farstrider options, scars and tattoo/warpaint and asked for it during the SL beta. I guess those fans don't understand that every race in WoW has more than one facet. I'm also one of those that don't mind sharing between Blood Elves and Void Elves. IMO, both Void Elves and Blood Elves should get Farstrider options, scars, and tattoos. Just because they're shared doesn't mean they can't be made distinct, right? Again, I am sorry it wasn't my intent to be mean. Sometimes I don't communicate the best and phrase things in a way that could be seen as snippy.

[Mace]

Then it appears that I mistook you. I am sorry. I'm one of the Blood Elf players who wanted rougher, farstrider options, scars and tattoo/warpaint and asked for it during the SL beta. I guess those fans don't understand that every race in WoW has more than one facet. I'm also one of those that don't mind sharing between Blood Elves and Void Elves. IMO, both Void Elves and Blood Elves should get Farstrider options, scars, and tattoos. Just because they're shared doesn't mean they can't be made distinct, right? Again, I am sorry it wasn't my intent to be mean. Sometimes I don't communicate the best and phrase things in a way that could be seen as snippy.

No worries. I have gained a somewhat negative rep amongst pro horde fans for supporting my brother on some of his pro alliance posts.

Sometimes this colours what we say and our conversations aren’t viewed objectively. But it’s a fab forum, objectivity is not the pillar.

Still because of the past, people, like MyWholeLifeIsThunder just proved, think I am on some sort of agenda the moment I mention night elves or am anti horde because I have been fair on my thoughts on suggestions that have seemed anti blood elf.

But actually they have been pro alliance or alliance elves rather than anti blood elf, but once you get a reputation. That’s it.

I was originally an orc fan. My brother originally a high elf fan. He has liked blood elves as much as night elves. And generally we play both factions altho he def leans alliance. He taps on more about night elves because they are most mis understand and the least covered of the elves.

We have Thalassian fans coming out of the woodwork, many into their lore. There isn’t much to add. Night elves however have soo few actually aware or interested it often warrants a lot of responses and breaking it down.

We both like to be thorough. It’s just who we are. If a topic we are knowledgeable warrants it. We will.

I wasn’t particularly interested. But I know my brother really wanted Farstrider options, scars, tattoos and rougher beards for blood elves to get a cooler vibe. That could be several thi bf s.

The bad boy look
The recovering addict
The hardcore man look
The wood elf ranger look who isn’t always pristine.

I remember Raven pestering me with someone’s reply on the official forum to his request for it. This was one of the most active blood elf fans on. The forum. And that person said Darstriders would be pristine, they won’t have scars or tattoos or rougher beards. That’s just not blood elves.

Whiles some agreed with Raven, most followed the other guy.

I hope actually now both blood elves and void elves get it. But I hope they use different styles for the beards and different tattoo patterns, styles and colours.

[Three Faced Goddess]

I hope actually now both blood elves and void elves get it. But I hope they use different styles for the beards and different tattoo patterns, styles and colours.

The designs and colors for tattoos and the styles for beards should be different enough to please both Blood Elf and Void Elf players. No one wants to be stuck with direct copy and pastes, otherwise what point would there be choosing blood elves or void elves over the other? Though, Void Elves do have two aesthetics while Blood Elves just have high elves. I hope that the void elves get void customization pass instead of taking directly from Blood Elves. Void Elves have better hair texture, imo.

[Tanaria]

Yeah, I really like the idea of a Highborne city (particularly Eldre'Thalas because of its positioning) being rebuilt, NE's need to have a strong presence in southern Kalimdor, cause it really feels like Feathermoon Stronghold by itself isn't doing it.

I do believe the primary NE hub has to bee on Northern Kalimdor tho, be it Hyjal, Darkshore or Ashenvale. After reclaiming their forest, it really makes more sense to start rebuilding. my perfect scenario would be Auberdine being rebuilt as their major city; it would give them a coastal city, in the mainland.

TBH I don't really like the idea of NE's reclaiming old Highborne ruins as their new Home City because I feel that thematically, what they need is to rebuild their culture and way of life they have had for the last 10k years, not abandon that in favor of the old. I just think NE's need a "New City" in order to look to the future -that's what I liked of Teldrassil conceptually, even tho it was bogged down by the decision of making a new world tree to build it upon-

Tho why I would like a new NE Home City in the place of Auberdine, I would love if the Highborne specifically reclaimed the Ruins of Mathystra in Darkshore.

I think that's my basic point of view; I don't think Night Elves as a whole should reclaim highborne ruins, as a society they have moved past that. But the Highborne, as a segment of the very same NE culture, should be able to reclaim their past if they want to, and what I would love would be if mainstream Darnassian society understood and supported that, so while most of the culture retains its druidic aesthetic and themes as central, there is room for highborne reclamation as a part of the whole of their identity.

Eldre'Thalas could work if they removed the Dire Maul: West dungeon and added it to the Azerothian Map. Make it so you can fly into that portion of the city where you can see Highborne, High Elves and Void Elves, working together and maybe get some Alliance Shen'dralar guards.
(Make them all Male Highborne Guards so they are different from the Kaldorei Female Sentinel Guards.)

Then, update Silvermoon and the whole of Quel'Thalas.
Hell, I don't mind Alliance having both Hyjal and Eldre'Thalas as their new elf cities, but Silvermoon needs to be updated for the Horde Blood Elves.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Eldre'Thalas could work if they removed the Dire Maul: West dungeon and added it to the Azerothian Map. Make it so you can fly into that portion of the city where you can see Highborne, High Elves and Void Elves, working together and maybe get some Alliance Shen'dralar guards.

I do really like the idea of Eldre'thalas being reclaimed by the current day alliance Highborne and their descendants, as much as I believe that mainstream NE identity has moved way past their imperial and arcane era, it doesn't change the fact that a section of the kaldorei and their descendents would still want to reclaim such past. Dire Maul could still exist as a dungeon, just have Chromie and another Bronze Dragon on the meeting stone.

A fully modern Highborne city on a more jungle environment would look just pretty sweet.

(Make them all Male Highborne Guards so they are different from the Kaldorei Female Sentinel Guards.)

This feels unnecessary tho; Nothing points at Highborne society having that segregation on the first place, and it has already kinda been abolished on mainstream NE society.

[Tanaria]

This feels unnecessary tho; Nothing points at Highborne society having that segregation on the first place, and it has already kinda been abolished on mainstream NE society.

Well, actually - it does, in some ways.

The Priesthood order was strictly female.
The Guards, as far as we could see in the Well of Eternity and dotted around the Tomb of Sargeras - all males.

The Sentinel order was a pure female order.

I think it would be good to showcase the current night elf guards in Northern Kalimdor as the female sentinels, with more vibrant and nature based features, with scarring and blinded eyes, whilst the old highborne shen'dralar guards are male and defending the Highborne City. Their features are more prim. Feralas becoming an Alliance city, whilst the Horde gain the Southern Barrens. I think that's fair.

- - - Updated - - -

I do really like the idea of Eldre'thalas being reclaimed by the current day alliance Highborne and their descendants, as much as I believe that mainstream NE identity has moved way past their imperial and arcane era, it doesn't change the fact that a section of the kaldorei and their descendents would still want to reclaim such past. Dire Maul could still exist as a dungeon, just have Chromie and another Bronze Dragon on the meeting stone.

A fully modern Highborne city on a more jungle environment would look just pretty sweet.

The Shen'dralar were based in a very "nature-based" location, which is most fitting for the Kaldorei.
Eldre'Thalas updated could carry some Nar'thalas, Zarkhenar and Zin-Azshari-like features and colours.

Also have the High Elven Magi and Void Elf spellcasters work with the Shen'dralar and build the relations between the alliance elves, just like the Horde Elves.

It also allows the actual night elf city to focus on Druidism, the Sentinels and Elune-worship.

[Thalassian Bob]

Yeah, I really like the idea of a Highborne city (particularly Eldre'Thalas because of its positioning) being rebuilt, NE's need to have a strong presence in southern Kalimdor, cause it really feels like Feathermoon Stronghold by itself isn't doing it.

I do believe the primary NE hub has to bee on Northern Kalimdor tho, be it Hyjal, Darkshore or Ashenvale. After reclaiming their forest, it really makes more sense to start rebuilding. my perfect scenario would be Auberdine being rebuilt as their major city; it would give them a coastal city, in the mainland.

TBH I don't really like the idea of NE's reclaiming old Highborne ruins as their new Home City because I feel that thematically, what they need is to rebuild their culture and way of life they have had for the last 10k years, not abandon that in favor of the old. I just think NE's need a "New City" in order to look to the future -that's what I liked of Teldrassil conceptually, even tho it was bogged down by the decision of making a new world tree to build it upon-

Tho why I would like a new NE Home City in the place of Auberdine, I would love if the Highborne specifically reclaimed the Ruins of Mathystra in Darkshore.

I think that's my basic point of view; I don't think Night Elves as a whole should reclaim highborne ruins, as a society they have moved past that. But the Highborne, as a segment of the very same NE culture, should be able to reclaim their past if they want to, and what I would love would be if mainstream Darnassian society understood and supported that, so while most of the culture retains its druidic aesthetic and themes as central, there is room for highborne reclamation as a part of the whole of their identity.

I probably wouldn't want the night elves to make Eldre'Thalas their main hub (I'd like a night elven contingent in the city though), but I just thought it could make for fun lore developments if the night elves aided the highborne in reclaiming their ancient city. It'd show a thawing of the Kaldorei disdain for the arcane.

Rebuilt Auberdine or Astranaar could make for cool night elven hubs though, yeah!

I support this at large, though i disagree with your comment on Tyrande and Malfurion, because the lore shows them in favour of this - they are often misunderstood, part of the night elven nuances is the backlsash against arcane magic, championed by Maiev as a seaparte issue to general phobia, which recent events necessitate further changes to.

Night elf lore is not simple, it is complex and nuanced, this is why they are described as enigmatic and the lore reflects this, whiles we don't need followers of the druids or the priests to be pro arcane, they can exist like the demon hunters, i.e. a separate group, with complete customisation , their own city and aesthetic that is kaldorei civilization based, but to be honest.. the opposite are really nature and arcane, forest and city.. the priest hood actually works well in both settings.

And it's not that nature is opposed or anti-thetical to arcane or hates it.. quite the opposite, they are just contrasting and at opposite ends. This is from the lore and tyrande/Malfurion's reaction to the shen'dralar etc reflects this appropriately, though I would like to see more.


Save for that specific comment, the spirit of what you said is actually what i've wanted for elves all along. An feel is a much better approach than what the community in the past had wanted

Hmm. While nature and arcane magic as forces may not be diametrically opposed to one another. It seems the night elves themselves are still deeply suspicious of the arcane, at least on a cultural level. Tyrande seems contemptuous of the Nightborne, referring to them as "mana addicts" and the night elves were conducting clandestine operations in Quel'Thalas after the Third War, attempting to sabotage the blood elves' arcane sanctums.

I think night elven mages Post-Cata are probably an exception to the rule, rather than proving a new one. I wager they are seen as a necessary evil or a useful tool but probably have to conduct themselves as warlocks do in most other cultures. A "don't ask, don't tell" sort of begrudging acceptance.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I probably wouldn't want the night elves to make Eldre'Thalas their main hub (I'd like a night elven contingent in the city though), but I just thought it could make for fun lore developments if the night elves aided the highborne in reclaiming their ancient city. It'd show a thawing of the Kaldorei disdain for the arcane.

Rebuilt Auberdine or Astranaar could make for cool night elven hubs though, yeah!

Exactly, like regardless where the main NE city would be, they also need a stronger presence in southern Kalimdor.

So like, I'd like their Home city to be in Norther Kalimdor, probably Darkshore, with a predominantly Darnassian population and some Highborne, and then also have Eldre'Thalas as their major settlement in Southern Kalimdor (IMO Feralas could become a really safe place for NE's given the proximity to Feathermoon Stronghold) with a majorly Highborne population and some Darnassian and Thalassian minority.

Like I just really like the concept of Eldre'thalas having a resurgence as the magical center of not just Kaldorei culture, but alliance elves as a whole, bringing in the High and Void Elves. Bonus points if there's an acknowledged impetus to counter the NB+BE alliance and apparent monopoly in elven arcane knowledge.

It would just be so neat to see the Highborne pass down, and update, their own arcane knowledge to Night, Void and High Elves (And it would also be fun see Highborne, Void and High Elves NPC's pop in Feathermoon Stronghold)

- - - Updated - - -

Well, actually - it does, in some ways.

The Priesthood order was strictly female.
The Guards, as far as we could see in the Well of Eternity and dotted around the Tomb of Sargeras - all males.

The Sentinel order was a pure female order.

I think it would be good to showcase the current night elf guards in Northern Kalimdor as the female sentinels, with more vibrant and nature based features, with scarring and blinded eyes, whilst the old highborne shen'dralar guards are male and defending the Highborne City. Their features are more prim. Feralas becoming an Alliance city, whilst the Horde gain the Southern Barrens. I think that's fair.

Again, I just think it's necessary when we have seen male Night Elves joining the Sentinel Army from Cataclysm on. The whole point seems to be that the necessity for segregation (probably as population control) just isn't the case anymore.

Also while the Highborne might also have had gendered roles during the WOTA, it wasn't true for all Kadorei; Black Rook Hold has several female fighters and captains. Why would the Highborne bring back gendered roles? Feel regressive when the point is for them to rejoin the modern world.

It's just a needlessly gendered segregation that I don't see the point of, nor the appeal of it.

The Shen'dralar were based in a very "nature-based" location, which is most fitting for the Kaldorei.
Eldre'Thalas updated could carry some Nar'thalas, Zarkhenar and Zin-Azshari-like features and colours.

Also have the High Elven Magi and Void Elf spellcasters work with the Shen'dralar and build the relations between the alliance elves, just like the Horde Elves.

It also allows the actual night elf city to focus on Druidism, the Sentinels and Elune-worship.

Completely agree, just touched up on that at more length above.

[Mace]

I know you struggle to read a longer post as you said earlier, but you have some mis-conceptions I would like to address, and I am taking the time to write as thorough an address as i can without going into all the detail. So if you care to understand why I believe very differently and where the lore proves this, please take the time to read the words I say. I've just come off a similar read from Raven in the night elf thread, and will echo some of his options, if you hop on to there after reading this, he provides some extra detail in his very recent responses to Tanaria and Rhlor which i read this morning and added a little to. Feel free to share your thoughts about it there as it mainly focuses on night elves. But go ahead and read this first.

Hmm. While nature and arcane magic as forces may not be diametrically opposed to one another. It seems the night elves themselves are still deeply suspicious of the arcane, at least on a cultural level. Tyrande seems contemptuous of the Nightborne, referring to them as "mana addicts" and the night elves were conducting clandestine operations in Quel'thalas after the Third War, attempting to sabotage the blood elves' arcane sanctums.

context is always provided, but the way part of the evidence is shown is confusing because most fans only have part of the picture. Without reading night elf lore, or the War of the ancients or knowing much about their past, most fans only get the bit about banned arcane and Maiev to base their conclusions on.

Yet, what are we shown? Night elves were suspicious of the blood elves because they had been dealing with Illidan and fel.. not because arcane magic was used.. the story shows this.. if they were suspicious because of arcane magic, why sign up with humans? Why allow high elves/humans to use arcane magic in WC3? Remember arcane magic was the main magic they used in the war of the ancients.. the use of arcane magic was banned not for phobia reason, the phobia exists because using the magic brought the legion, and it is the legion that is the centre of this not the magic itself.

Which is why when the legion return this no longer becomes an issue and they aren't hounding mages down and eventually they themselves lift their own restrictions on themselves. The story is showing a picture many non-interested fans aren't seeing because they don't care to.. But it's there.

Furthermore, the arcane hate is only shown in Maiev, while other night elves are sometimes shown to be wary of the past's recklessness, it's more from a contrition point of view and lamenting their arrogance than takin issue purely on the use of magic itself. (which is banned for very specific reason, which is not hatred)

When the situation is tackled head on in Wolfheart and the return of the Highborne to Darnassian society (not that night elf arcane magic users never stopped existing, they just weren't welcome in Darnassian society on Hyjal during the long vigil (after the Sunstrider exile, because of it) as that group actively suppressed the use of magic for a good cause - not out of hatred or phobia, but to prevent the world's destruction because they believed the use would bring back the legion. Always keep that in mind) you don't ban magical practice on pain of deathout of hatred when you are such an intelligent and enlightened race. These aren't some medieval humans (which is why fans mis-understand night elves (ask yourself why night elves didn't join Malygos' campaign to remove magic from the lesser races if they were such magic haters), their cause was legitimate hard ban on magical spell usage because it meant bringing evil aliens back.. not superstitious phobia from farmhands who don't understand. Remember this is a society that includes an Order that likely discovered magic, and practitioners, including former Highborne and moonguard (at the time) who take this step, it's not an ignorant group, but members of a civilization that reached a pinnacle the word has never seen since - people think the Darnassians are just rural backward druids, but fail to account that their priests operated and guided a society to it's pinnacle, and many of those druids were former Highborne and Moonguard practitioners of the fabled era), they were not making uninformed decisions, on baseless fear and superstition - the fear was legitimate, and they had 3 dragonflights and demi/wild gods backing their decision and prognosis as magical experts (remember the blue flight was in hiding at the time so couldn't lend it's voice, leaving the night elf mages at the time the soul experts and they were the ones who all agreed on the ban.. Illidan was the only who didn't, but he had insights about the legion the rest did not.. and his actions (mainly killing the soldiers who came to apprehend him for questioning, basically turned them against him.

This is all in the story - try to see what they are telling us and showing us. Sometime it seems confusing when we dont listen and just assume rather than follow their story.

Maiev
Maiev is shown and escribed to be the one that hates all things arcane, and the stoking up arcane hate, Malfruion and Tyrande are shown to be the opposite, they are the ones advocating the reconciliation with the Highborne, which is the main dispute..not the lifting of the ban on the arcane.

This is another area fans confuse, some of the few that read wolfheart do this too, sadly, to compound it most do not, so they don't get the context of much of what is shown, making it easy to mi-understand this group. It's not arcane magic's return or usage that is contentious for the night elves, (it is only an issue for Maiev), the main area Tyrande and Malfurion get consensus from the people is letting the Highborne back in as part of their society despite the sins of the order, and that particular group - the Shen'dralar didn't directly call the demons, but they sat and watched, only taking action when their city was under attack. There is issue against their own kin because of the past and the hatred/hurts run deep - but then the character of the night elf is benevolent - which is why they come round ater after the main instigator of hatred (Maiev) flees.

Note blizzard dramatizes this a bit more than they should, because Highborne were part of the long vigil group.. Darth'remar's group and others from around the empire that survived. the Sunstrider group were there for 3,000 years before exile, and other Highborne and mage users like moonguards converted to druidism .. it as a collection of arcane wielding night elves that chose to ban arcane magic. No druid existed when this decision was made (Malfurion hadn't started the class yet, himself just recently started studying with Cenarius when the invasion hit). They , based the decision on their arcane knowledge, Highborne included, Darth'remar included, all felt this was the wise choice to do, even if it was at Malfurion's lead (the guy who just saved them). Darth'remar later (3,000 years late mind - so no small amount of time) felt that it was acceptable to lift the ban and continue studies because the negative impact (which was mainly summoning the legion) could be eliminated...(neither addiction nor hatred of arcane was the main issue and we know addiction could be mitigated (it's a choice/discipline thing, and after 3,000 years of abstinence, no one in that group was addicted..though Malfurion accuses the motivation between Darth'remar's desire to return to arcane studies as addiction driven - we know Malfurion is wrong there - and perhaps a bit of stigma is likely the cause of that comment. The demonic detection mitigation while the druids (former mages) did not agree with him, he later proved it when he founded Quel'thalas, the Ban'dinoriel worked, and we also know the shen'drlaar similar used magic without detection as did those in suramar under the shield.. so the night elves learn 10,000 years later, or rather 7.000 years later Darth'remar was 100% correct about that. But think, they also learn in Legion expansion that Illidan was correct 100% - 10,000 years later.


So, as you can see, we shouldn't over play the night elves' reaction to the arcane, and check the text and accounts for what they tell us. There are several issues involved, and understanding which is which and why is important.

Tyrande's Enconter with the Nightborne
Tyrande is not contemptuous of the Nightborne just because they're an arcane using group and she hates the arcane - that makes no sense given her profile and actions and the events so for.. she is this way because of their reckless arcane usage - from an order that has always believed the power to be sacred (for context), their arcane abuse is obvious and evident in their appearance and the withering she witnesses in the nightfallen, they are anorexic thin (in a way that would appear totally unhealthy to her) and the addiction has in her views warped them even further.. the disgust portrayed in her language can only be at the mis-mannagement of magic which characterised that era of the night elves which the nightborne are still living in. It is not disgust at beautiful Suramar (she loved her city), it is not disgust at all the things the night elves did right), nor is it disgust at arcane magic either - open your eyes, she is surrounded by kirin'tor mages, draenei best friends and humans use magic, and she advocated for the Shen'dralar to return she pushes them to train more mages, she helped KAel'thas in WC3 to honour Darth'remar's contribution to the war of the ancients..this was before he went of embracing fel usage like Illidan which set the night elves against the blood elves because this is the path the Highborne took that led to calling the legion - the legion and tying to them is what is disgusting. This is telling you it is not arcane hatred at all behind Tyrande's words, but specifically the abuse and situation of the nightborne. But fans a re-inforcing their erroneous views on night elves without properly taking into context what they are shown. Easy to accuse blizzard of being sloppy than diligently looking at what they show.

The nightborne have just done the same here, when Tyrande meets Thalyssra, she has just met her again, the evidence she sees is Nightborne or rather "warped night elves", who as healthy night elves 10,000 years ago, once resisted and fought the legion opening the door to them now and lending them the significant power of the Nightwell which has not only warped these people (in her view) but can now allow the demons access to enough power to complete their ancient objective that saw her precious civilization destroyed. Tyrande at this point has no idea that magic /well is not the reason the legion is interested in Azeroth ( this information will come to her later with Illidan and others - she has been spending the time chasing Malfurion and just had to kill Ysera).

She doesn't know if Thalyssra is friend or foe.. while others tell her she is friend, Tyrande exhibits healthy scepticism, in that..I've just met you in your current devolved state (that looks disgusting btw), don't know if you're trustworthy yet.

The comments, while harsh are expected of a military leader in first contact, the antipathy is not against arcane magic,but the abuse of it and the acceptance of evil.. and it will strike a deeper chord with her, because this is her home city, and she is very proud of it. When she left it, while these people who remained (and became Nightborne) refused to join her order's match, they at least were opposed to the demons and had fought against them, blocking off and destroying the second portal the demons had attempted to open in the most holy site of her order (this is the attack that killed her predecessor and destroyed half of the city).

Now she returns and her proud memories desecrated by the evidence she sees.

Look , the context for Tyrande's reaction is provided. We know she doesn't hate arcane users, she gave Darth'remar a chance and was never against the moonguard or mage users who were the backbone of the resistances fight against the legion 10k years, and she proves it agian by inviting the shend'rlar back, and even recognising that the demon hunters were here to help..oppsing her husbands suspicions in fron of Anduin .. realising there is more.

Context dear.. I hope this helps explain somewhat.

I think night elven mages Post-Cata are probably an exception to the rule, rather than proving a new one. I wager they are seen as a necessary evil or a useful tool but probably have to conduct themselves as warlocks do in most other cultures. A "don't ask, don't tell" sort of begrudging acceptance.

No they are not. That is a fan mis-conception largely amongst horde fans, and some alliance fans to an extent who don't know night elf lore a bit more deeply. I understand it, because I see it repeated in the forums often, and try to correct it whenever I am around by pointing out the things that show otherwise and trying to highlight what the main issue is.

For example the difference between banning arcane practice and banning the arcane ..the difference between Highborne hate for their sins and arcane hate for magic. Pointing out this race doesn't hate the arcane at all, never has, but the Darnassians were afraid to use it during the long vigil because this is what brought the legion. Yet the Well of Eternity they protected with their lives - that is an arcane body f water, and their priesthood views its waters as sacred "the waters of the goddess", further more they constantly used the physical waters to create moonwells for priestly purposes, and druids too used it to enhance the natural environment flora and fauna with the enhancing powers of arcane energy - this wasn't using it for spells.. whish is what was banned, not hated.

Now, Maiev did hate the use of the arcane in any form, and we are specifically told this in Wolfheart and again shown this in Illidan the novel. She is alone in this. The rest of the night elves have some having phobias, not all, and the reluctances are understandable where addiction or fear of addiction is concerned.. but then the Arcan'dor is created successfully by the druidic valewalker Farodin - eliminating the fear. Phobias and stigma against arcane magic tied ot their race would have dissipated after the legion's return and the allying with humans and Draenei..how much further after the destruction of the legion and the discovery that it wasn't thier magic that was the reason for the attack, but a titan bent on destroying the world soul


So you can see in the behaviour and story of the night elves and the lore, how different

- - - Updated - - -

Completely agree, just touched up on that at more length above.

Exactly, pre-sundering arcane heavy kal'dorei society was always heavy in nature too.. it's just that towards the end of it, ,invasion era, arcane abuse and dominance had squeezed out nature practices.. probably Queen led to look down on it as inferior to arcane..

But they still had lots of gardens, trees, ancients, and war of the ancients takes time to tell paint that nature/arcane duality.

My points have never been that nature was integral a part of the kaldorei, but that arcane is also..and point out the arcane power present even in the long vigil when it wasn't utilised.


Night elf earlier pre-sundering was the most balanced era, and this is where they developed the greatest. The extremes were the around the legion invasion time, when addiction and abuse had become a thing, and in the long vigil where the opposite - a total ban was in practice was in place to stop the legion.

Still the race had both extremes and also balance. And this is what they show.

Night elves:
Kaldorei: Show arcane and nature balance and extremes. Forest, temple and city habitats.
Shal'dorei: Show arcane extreme, but now with elements of druidsm (through the arrcan'dor) and kaldorei religion returning. City habitat mainly

Thalassians Elves:
High and Blood elves: Show arcane and light magic intermixed (there is no extreme nor is there "balance" as a theme): Blood have city and forest habitat, high are in exile atm
Void elves: Show void and arcane. In exile atm

All Elves:
Show nature love, magical love, but also great with the bow and ranged attacks.


The cool things about warcraft elves is they are all their own society.. it's not a case that because blood elves are arcane orientated, therefore it's removed from night elves, void elves and Nightborne.. or because night elves have a strong nature element, then high elves or Nightborne just abhor it.. they have their stories. Void elves and Nightborne are subset societies of blood elves and night elves, just like Highmountain are a smaller society of Tauren with their own unique stories but largely mirroring and based on the original, with some caveats as they are their own people.

I like this about warcraft.. it makes them feel like established peoples and societies, rather than 1-trick ponies. And i support customisations that reflect that. Don't let my playing devil's advocate obscure this truth.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Exactly, pre-sundering arcane heavy kal'dorei society was always heavy in nature too.. it's just that towards the end of it, ,invasion era, arcane abuse and dominance had squeezed out nature practices.. probably Queen led to look down on it as inferior to arcane..

But they still had lots of gardens, trees, ancients, and war of the ancients takes time to tell paint that nature/arcane duality.

My points have never been that nature was integral a part of the kaldorei, but that arcane is also..and point out the arcane power present even in the long vigil when it wasn't utilised.


Night elf earlier pre-sundering was the most balanced era, and this is where they developed the greatest. The extremes were the around the legion invasion time, when addiction and abuse had become a thing, and in the long vigil where the opposite - a total ban was in practice was in place to stop the legion.

Still the race had both extremes and also balance. And this is what they show.

Night elves:
Kaldorei: Show arcane and nature balance and extremes. Forest, temple and city habitats.
Shal'dorei: Show arcane extreme, but now with elements of druidsm (through the arrcan'dor) and kaldorei religion returning. City habitat mainly

Thalassians Elves:
High and Blood elves: Show arcane and light magic intermixed (there is no extreme nor is there "balance" as a theme): Blood have city and forest habitat, high are in exile atm
Void elves: Show void and arcane. In exile atm

All Elves:
Show nature love, magical love, but also great with the bow and ranged attacks.


The cool things about warcraft elves is they are all their own society.. it's not a case that because blood elves are arcane orientated, therefore it's removed from night elves, void elves and Nightborne.. or because night elves have a strong nature element, then high elves or Nightborne just abhor it.. they have their stories. Void elves and Nightborne are subset societies of blood elves and night elves, just like Highmountain are a smaller society of Tauren with their own unique stories but largely mirroring and based on the original, with some caveats as they are their own people.

I like this about warcraft.. it makes them feel like established peoples and societies, rather than 1-trick ponies. And i support customisations that reflect that. Don't let my playing devil's advocate obscure this truth.

Honestly? I don't think you understand the difference between the Kaldorei used to being an arcane based society and now being a druidic based society.

It's not about whether there weren't any nature/druidic elements before, It's what ideology is predominant; nightborne have gardeners and botanists, but how they treat nature is ideologically different of how current darnassian society does.

It's about the weight different elements have within a society. Night Elves built a society for 10k years where arcane held little to no place until now, subservient to their druidic ideology.

I... I don't think you understand Night Elves. And I don't wanna mean something hostile by saying that, but like, that's the whole deal of night elves as we met them during War3, they basically got rid of any cultural aspects of the arcane because of a safety meassure, It's unecessary now, yes, but their culture for the last 10k years has banned arcane and its related ideologies, so by all accounts it has a minimal presence in modern NE culture, only being reintegrated by the highborne.

Night Elves are not an arcane based society, just like Stormwing Humans aren't, and it's just... so strange that you actually don't seem to get that. NE banning arcane for 10k years resulted on a culture and society with little use for the arcane; that's the point. Their culture has been shaped on the absence of the arcane, and it will take time before it can settle again as a cultural cornerstone, if ever.

[Tanaria]

Again, I just think it's necessary when we have seen male Night Elves joining the Sentinel Army from Cataclysm on. The whole point seems to be that the necessity for segregation (probably as population control) just isn't the case anymore.

Also while the Highborne might also have had gendered roles during the WOTA, it wasn't true for all Kadorei; Black Rook Hold has several female fighters and captains. Why would the Highborne bring back gendered roles? Feel regressive when the point is for them to rejoin the modern world.

It's just a needlessly gendered segregation that I don't see the point of, nor the appeal of it.

The thing is, Blizzard haven't updated any of the night elf guards, like they did with the Blood Elves and Dwarves.

I mean, they talk about "equality" but yet, we've got no male night elf sentinel guards. If they aren't going to do that, then that's fine. Keep the Sentinels as female, but have the Highborne Shen'dralar Warriors as male.
Both need to be updated so they have extra features, just like the other races.

I'm not one to argue about the finer details of Highborne society, but I've been told that many of the Guardians of the major Highborne cities were all male.

[Vaedan]

The thing is, Blizzard haven't updated any of the night elf guards, like they did with the Blood Elves and Dwarves.

I mean, they talk about "equality" but yet, we've got no male night elf sentinel guards. If they aren't going to do that, then that's fine. Keep the Sentinels as female, but have the Highborne Shen'dralar Warriors as male.
Both need to be updated so they have extra features, just like the other races.

I'm not one to argue about the finer details of Highborne society, but I've been told that many of the Guardians of the major Highborne cities were all male.

Well, the guards in Darnassus remained all female, but there are male sentinels in Ashenvale, during the Siege of Astranaar, so there are some indeed some male Sentinels, but not so many though.

[ravenmoon]

Night elves:Kaldorei: Show arcane and nature balance and extremes. Forest, temple and city habitats.
Shal'dorei: Show arcane extreme, but now with elements of druidsm (through the arrcan'dor) and kaldorei religion returning. City habitat mainly


Thalassians Elves:
High and Blood elves: Show arcane and light magic intermixed (there is no extreme nor is there "balance" as a theme): Blood have city and forest habitat, high are in exile atm
Void elves: Show void and arcane. In exile atm


All Elves:
Show nature love, magical love, but also great with the bow and ranged attacks.

I would say


kaldorei = heavy nature, and Elune and small arcane (by small I mean smaller number, not less potency or skill. They’re led by highborne who’ve been prolifically studying and advancing their magical knowledge for 10k years. They’d be way above anyone. Only the Nightborne would compare)

Shal’dorei = arcane heavy, a little nature and a little Elune

Void elves and blood elves have two main differences: void and light usage, alliance and horde aligned. Void elves are more passionate about the alliance than blood elves are about the horde though - but they don't have to be the same.

I also love that each group is different despite being the same family , and sometimes they're identical, but sometimes opposites.