Night elves are not children.

[VladlTutushkin]

I didn't disagree with the point concerning Ashenvale, although I doubt it's really vital in any real sense given how sparsely it's populated relative to its size with the entire zone having only two smallish towns in the form of Raynewood Retreat and Astranaar. Regardless, it is Kaldorei land and their sovereign territory, and it belongs uncontested back in their hands.

Being the "bigger man" neither requires nor implies being defanged, declawed, and/or neutered - again, this is a false dilemma and a product of fallacious reasoning. You don't have to answer every aggression with equal furor, nor do you have to be a doormat. You can defend yourself such that an enemy can make no forward movement into your territory, and then stand down without reprisal should they retreat, allowing your superior footing to serve as an active deterrent. You can hold red slaughter back as a last resort, not the go-to reaction to hostility.

Ashenvale was described in the book as the most populated area of the night elves, maybe it is simply underrepresented in the game. Also it acts as a defensive buffer for Darkshore and Hyjal. Allowing Horde to be there is like purposefully exposing yourself to the attack.

And still i see the problem here - night elves already made peace with the Horde before, after Pandaria. And they had all the agreements and such. Which all went to the shitter anyway when they Horde decided to attack. They even had status of Ashenvale settled back then, with Horde withdrawing all claims on it.

See how it ended?

[Aucald]

Ashenvale was described in the book as the most populated area of the night elves, maybe it is simply underrepresented in the game. Also it acts as a defensive buffer for Darkshore and Hyjal. Allowing Horde to be there is like purposefully exposing yourself to the attack.

And still i see the problem here - night elves already made peace with the Horde before, after Pandaria. And they had all the agreements and such. Which all went to the shitter anyway when they Horde decided to attack. They even had status of Ashenvale settled back then, with Horde withdrawing all claims on it.

See how it ended?

Described in which book? Perhaps Ashenvale was their most populated area before Teldrassil and Darnassus were created, but Darnassus became the Night Elves' main population center in the WoW era - which is why its destruction at Sylvanas and the Horde's hands was so terrible. But regardless, I agree with it being a defensive buffer zone. Even more essentially, it's simply ancestral Night Elven territory that no one save the Kaldorei has a claim to. They don't need to populate it heavily - it's a sacred region that belongs to them regardless.

No one is saying the Horde isn't at fault there, either. The argument isn't "one should never defend their homeland," it's more "war without end is basically a recipe for mutually-assured destruction of all sides." That's the excluded middle under discussion.

[VladlTutushkin]

Described in which book? Perhaps Ashenvale was their most populated area before Teldrassil and Darnassus were created, but Darnassus became the Night Elves' main population center in the WoW era - which is why its destruction at Sylvanas and the Horde's hands was so terrible. But regardless, I agree with it being a defensive buffer zone. Even more essentially, it's simply ancestral Night Elven territory that no one save the Kaldorei has a claim to. They don't need to populate it heavily - it's a sacred region that belongs to them regardless.

No one is saying the Horde isn't at fault there, either. The argument isn't "one should never defend their homeland," it's more "war without end is basically a recipe for mutually-assured destruction of all sides." That's the excluded middle under discussion.

I remember in pre-BfA books speaking about how majority of night elves on Kalimdor moved to Ashenvale due to Horde harassing all other zones and raiding them constantly.

In any case, there wasnt “war without end”. If night elves actually engaged the Horde on its own grounds or for example poisoned its water supplies with spores or anything like that then yes, we could have talked about escalation.

As of right now night elves barely responded to an armed robbery with a single swing of a bare fist.

Thats why i argue that they need to do something BIG, because Horde is not drive by intellect. Its driven by instinct. Pain drives them away, in a way. Like a gorilla struck by the electric fence will eventually stop jumping onto it. Without that orcs will still keep dreaming in their minds about more easy conques in the Ashenvale and other races will be infected by that.

[Aucald]

I remember in pre-BfA books speaking about how majority of night elves on Kalimdor moved to Ashenvale due to Horde harassing all other zones and raiding them constantly.

In any case, there wasnt “war without end”. If night elves actually engaged the Horde on its own grounds or for example poisoned its water supplies with spores or anything like that then yes, we could have talked about escalation.

As of right now night elves barely responded to an armed robbery with a single swing of a bare fist.

Thats why i argue that they need to do something BIG, because Horde is not drive by intellect. Its driven by instinct. Pain drives them away, in a way. Like a gorilla struck by the electric fence will eventually stop jumping onto it. Without that orcs will still keep dreaming in their minds about more easy conques in the Ashenvale and other races will be infected by that.

I don't recall anything like that, nor does it make sense in light of the fact that Ashenvale has been the epicenter of Night Elven/Horde conflict since after the Third War, with all the other Night Elven holdings being relatively conflict-free (e.g. Hyjal, Darkshore, and Moonglade) prior to BfA.

When I'm referring to "war without end" I'm not talking about the single conflict of the Night Elves and the Horde at Darkshore/Teldrassil, but more the all-encompassing pattern (the eponymous "Cycle of Hatred) that the Alliance and Horde has been trapped in, in a broader sense.

The close of the Fourth War has already changed the Horde in a number of significant ways, about as massive a change as Thrall's original ascent to its leader and the change in the Horde's general philosophy (e.g. re-embracing their original Shamanic/naturalistic culture). This is not to say that the Horde is guilt-free and has no responsibility for its actions under Sylvanas or Garrosh, but treating the current Horde like it is the same Horde as it was during BfA strikes me as equally wrongheaded. The Horde owes the Kaldorei some serious reparations for their actions, I don't anyone seriously disagrees with that notion. But if there's to be a lasting peace, further bloodshed is probably not the best ingredient to bringing it about.

[VladlTutushkin]

I don't recall anything like that, nor does it make sense in light of the fact that Ashenvale has been the epicenter of Night Elven/Horde conflict since after the Third War, with all the other Night Elven holdings being relatively conflict-free (e.g. Hyjal, Darkshore, and Moonglade) prior to BfA.

When I'm referring to "war without end" I'm not talking about the single conflict of the Night Elves and the Horde at Darkshore/Teldrassil, but more the all-encompassing pattern (the eponymous "Cycle of Hatred) that the Alliance and Horde has been trapped in, in a broader sense.

The close of the Fourth War has already changed the Horde in a number of significant ways, about as massive a change as Thrall's original ascent to its leader and the change in the Horde's general philosophy (e.g. re-embracing their original Shamanic/naturalistic culture). This is not to say that the Horde is guilt-free and has no responsibility for its actions under Sylvanas or Garrosh, but treating the current Horde like it is the same Horde as it was during BfA strikes me as equally wrongheaded. The Horde owes the Kaldorei some serious reparations for their actions, I don't anyone seriously disagrees with that notion. But if there's to be a lasting peace, further bloodshed is probably not the best ingredient to bringing it about.

IF horde actually pays up for once then sure, we can see. Because “sorry” only cuts it first time, and only if you havent crossed some lines. And its past that with the horde as you clearly understand.

If Thrall brings the head he so eagerly promised, if horde somehow recompenses the night elves (and dont start with “they dont have anything to give” , Horde has riches enough to compensate them, loot Gallywixe’s palace if need be.) and stays out of Ashenvale for good then maybe there can be peace.

But they should not assume that it will be as easy as mumbling “me kinda sorry” and walking away, because its not sufficient and will not stop the “cycle of vengeance”. If Horde wants that cycle to end they should also sacrifice, also give and also show that they changed. Its not night elves job to stop the Cycle that horde perpetuated on them.

[Zuben]

While there are a good number of relevant night elf NPCs it's true they seem to lean on Tyrande too much, especially after War of Thorns. She's essentially a crutch to them. I consider Shandris one of their more colorful personalities and even she's all "yes mum" with Tyrande.

[Kithelle]

Are you referring to the Forsaken, who destroyed one capital city; or are you referring to the humans, who put an entire race in concentration camps and forced them to fight for their own entertainment?

Nah, we know what I'm talking about and we both know that pales in comparison to all the shit the Horde has done

Nice try though

[Biomega]

Nah, we know what I'm talking about and we both know that pales in comparison to all the shit the Horde has done

Nice try though

Reminds one of certain RL countries as well, who're very good at "forgetting" what they've done while pointing out what others did.

As someone else put it so succinctly: it's only bad if the Horde does it. QED, I guess.

[Arrashi]

No they aren't children. Children can be taught. Night elves on the other hand prove time after time to be highly resistant to knowledge.

[VladlTutushkin]

No they aren't children. Children can be taught. Night elves on the other hand prove time after time to be highly resistant to knowledge.

Because if they learned then Horde wouldnt have had such an easy time winning. And we (or rather Blizz) cant have that. Horde can only be defeated by the Horde because Alliance is for losers. Am i right or what?

[Arrashi]

Because if they learned then Horde wouldnt have had such an easy time winning. And we (or rather Blizz) cant have that. Horde can only be defeated by the Horde because Alliance is for losers. Am i right or what?

Not really. I mean night elves are just cattle/resource so maybe you have too high expectations for them?

[VladlTutushkin]

Not really. I mean night elves are just cattle/resource so maybe you have too high expectations for them?

If they wanted people to have low expectations they should have changed the race descriptions then and also deleted Warcraft 3 campaign and basically just stop advertising race as one thing only to bait and switch in the end.

[TheVaryag]

Bad writing is all this is, how they not only portrait Tyrande as a woman that just gets emotional, needs to vent off and then everyone forgives her like it's normal for every single woman to do in WoW story... by the way.

But yeah no, Night Elves will survive. They sure had the same leader for 10k years, in Tyrande but It's handleable by anyone else, Shandris, Malfurion etc. the people live THOUSANDS of years, Im pretty sure Anarchy wont reign for them once one person is gone.

[VladlTutushkin]

Bad writing is all this is, how they not only portrait Tyrande as a woman that just gets emotional, needs to vent off and then everyone forgives her like it's normal for every single woman to do in WoW story... by the way.

But yeah no, Night Elves will survive. They sure had the same leader for 10k years, in Tyrande but It's handleable by anyone else, Shandris, Malfurion etc. the people live THOUSANDS of years, Im pretty sure Anarchy wont reign for them once one person is gone.

"Forgives" her for what? She literally did nothing worth forgiving. She did barely anything at all.

[geco]

Night Elves are not children, but Angry Night Elves cannot exist in a modern MMO that is trying to preach peace love and understanding.

what a weird way of writing. Genocide, Racism and Sexism.

[TheFirstOnes]

Considering Elune likely took part in the Well of Eternity's Creation (Which was purified Titan blood that was likely also infused with Life energies given to the Titans by Elune), and considering the Night Elves literally exist because of the Well and started to worship Elune cause they believed her to be the goddess who slept within the depths of the Well of Eternity during daylight hours, and within the moon during the night, yes they are clearly her children.

- - - Updated - - -

To a fucking deity whose existence influenced the Night Elves' existence, the Night Elves are literal fucking children, the same way every non-Titanforged/native soul on Azeroth is the child of AZEROTH, THE TITAN!

[Calfredd]

To a fucking deity whose existence influenced the Night Elves' existence, the Night Elves are literal fucking children, the same way every non-Titanforged/native soul on Azeroth is the child of AZEROTH, THE TITAN!

What does this have to do with the OP saying the night elves aren't children who constantly need Tyrande's guidance?

[TheFirstOnes]

What does this have to do with the OP saying the night elves aren't children who constantly need Tyrande's guidance?

Ah, seems I misread the point. Carry on, then.

[Toho]

"Renewal" in the context of Tyrande's choice at Ardenweald isn't tantamount to forgiveness, either. At no point has it been said she's forgotten or forgiven Sylvanas, and neither would I expect her (or the rest of the Kaldorei) to do so. You've reached a conclusion unsupported by any form of evidence.

Renewal is an empty word. Its like a buzzword. It sounds nice but doesn't mean anything.

As long as the Horde exists, as evidenced by their continued aggression regardless of warchief a renewal path is meaningless unless it is in the context of getting ready for the next war and to permanently remove the threat on their doorstep.
Otherwise what's the point? The Horde can and will eventually blast and burn their way through the Night Elf forests again and they will kill whoever is left over.
As evidenced by their past actions.

[scubi666stacy]

I'm pretty sure "renewal" in the context of Tyrande's decision in Ardenweald (concerning Sylvanas and her being the Night Warrior) means renewal of the murdered Kaldorei at Teldrassil, not a far-reaching renewal of the Kaldorei as a culture or somesuch. Tyrande made the choice between expending her power as the Night Warrior to avenge the deaths of her people or expending that power as a means of giving them a path toward restoration, essentially undoing what Sylvanas had done in time.

That was my takeaway, at least; in that sense, I felt what Tyrande did was the better option of the two presented. Revenge, while certainly satisfying, is always a shorter-term goal - undoing the thing you're seeking vengeance for, actually undoing a vast injustice, is preferable if ever possible.

Exactly. People should stop frothing at their mouths and start to think.
If Tyrande is able to save the doomes Night Elves from the Maw and give them a new life, then its a better option and is a spit in Sylvanas Face, who is left to live with all her guilt and disgust of herself because she has got that part of her soul back. No better way to torment someone for all eternity then to let him suffer from his own sins.

- - - Updated - - -

Renewal is an empty word. Its like a buzzword. It sounds nice but doesn't mean anything.

As long as the Horde exists, as evidenced by their continued aggression regardless of warchief a renewal path is meaningless unless it is in the context of getting ready for the next war and to permanently remove the threat on their doorstep.
Otherwise what's the point? The Horde can and will eventually blast and burn their way through the Night Elf forests again and they will kill whoever is left over.
As evidenced by their past actions.

I hope that Blizzard uses Shadowlands to finally get the game into a different direction. Honestly, this faction conflict comes from the same source as the mistreatment of female workers and misogyny: men with great inferiority complexes who need to compensate by putting others down and hurting them. They aggrandise themselves via their in-game avatars and the greatest way to do so is a war.