The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

[Hellspawn]

I think Elunes "Arcane" magic maybe is some special version of nature magic just like we got domination magic in the death realm

[ravenmoon]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Arcane

What Rhlor is getting at, is that Elune's Magic is not the same as what Mages cast.

No, that is not what he is getting at, and you don't know that. Night elves cast the spells not Elune.. there aren't two types of arcane power.

The problem is your refusal to compute that the power the night elf priestesses use is arcane, because somehow you can't fathom a goddess or religious order can harness arcane power.

yet the very story of the night elves power originates from learning via the the arcane, and that is tied directly to the goddess. In this universe, the magecraft you learn comes form the night elves, and they were studying it first to learn more about their goddess.

Arcane is typically seen as the magic that Mages use, whether it's Draenei, Blood Elves, Humans or Zandalari Trolls. Blizzard themselves, when talking about "the Arcane" they have referred it to Mages, and Mage-characters like Khadgar and races, such as the Nightborne and Blood Elves.

Whiles this is true, to then make an assumption when there is clear evidence to the contrary, that because they are priests therefore the energy isn't arcane is also pig headed.

You are been shown something different, in the night elves the study and origin or the craft called magecraft in the form the mage calss is set up originates. That story hasn't been fully told yet.

you are shown Priestesses being powerful martial weapons wielders of the bow and the glaive, you don't question this unusual characteristic, yet when shown this priesthood also uses the arcane entirely for its offensive, you then have a problem with it. yet it's not the lore o rt he game visuals that claim it is something else.. it is you.


Why would Elune be limited only to light magic? When you see the priestesses training in bow, glaive, wielding arcane, light and void? Have you seen Elune cast a spell before? Look at everyone amazed that Elune actually speaks - have you seen Elune wield a bow or glaive? or cast a light spell or void one? Last I recall it's always the priestesses in their very unique order doing so.

Or have you not noticed the Order of Elune is not a Priestly order like the church of the Holy Light or the Draenei priests.

They've never made Tyrande or the sisterhood out to be these great night elf mages. They are Priestesses and have no relation to the "Arcane" in the main aspect, which is the Mage-craft.

And neither am I nor anyone else, pointing out that their spells use arcane magic is not saying they are great night elf mages. A mage is not the only class that uses arcane magic. Night elven druidism, ELunism also do.

What you have to look at is what you are shown, told and seen, and try to understand how it connects. Clearly there is something deeper and more fundamental in the connection of the three going on with the night elves who originate the three classes of Mage, druid and demon hunter. Whiles they don't originate the priest class, their priest class is unlike any other in how it operates.

It tells a story, that hasn't been fleshed out. Follow the evidence, not what you assume it to be or want it to be.

Elune's Magic is an otherworldly source, but is given the Arcane tag, just like Healing Wave is given the "nature" tag, even though it has precious little to do with "nature."

Says who? You? a wikipedia writer like myself? Or the game creators? Do you know how many times blizzard has divided magical sources, and distinguished them, differentiated them, not once have they changed what the night elf priests use and casts. They have already tied this into their story, the story of the race and the arcane..

It si a part of it, to assume it is some mistake they haven't addressed, when they do it over and over again is you simply refusing to accept what you are shown in some sort of stubborn refusal.

You fail to connect the night lves pre-sundering era, and origin to it's present, yet it's all linked. The mere fact that the race doesn't change at all tells you something. They haven't fleshed everything out yet, but they have shown enough to make you at least know this is not coincidence.


You really have to ignore a hell of a lot of the night elves to totally separate the arcane from them. Merely going by "oh, Darnassians banned arcane magic " means they don't use arcane is not even close to enough.

But, like we keep pointing out to you blood elf fans, the night elves are ENIGMATIC .. they are meant to be a little confusing and not so easily deciphered. This is by design, being a blood elf fan and not caring enough to look closer will make you miss all the clues.

Like the difference between banning the arcane and banning the practice of the arcane... it is the latter that happened, not the former - you can't "ban" the arcane. They didn't ban the Well of Eternity, they prevented it's use for magical spells , but used it to create moonwells, enhance the land using arcane energy mixed with light and connect it to nature .. because there is a connection.

This is the race that shows the connection between the arcane and nature, and the goddess is part of their origin and that connection too - or do you think it's for no reason they believed she slept within the well of eternity and believe it's waters are her waters and call them sacred - arcane waters mind you.

you see you don't understand the reason for the long vigil nor the ban on practice - because you don't understand the story they want to share. They didn't want to make or try to make or make an elf race that is disconnected to magic, they gave the ma portion that doesn't use magic, but big mystery and deeper meaning, they included in their story. They tell you directly exactly what they wanted to do with the night elves and what they made them to be - it was never to be just forest elves, but a combination of the best of the dark elves and the forest elves - and this is exactly what they do, both the arcane and nature are totally tied together both in the arcane prolific era that is mentioned to have lots of trees, ancients wielding magic with mages and in the long vigil, which had no arcane practice, but was full of the power of the well of Eternity that was nurturing nature and flooding the night elves and empowering their Tree.

On this matter, Rhlor is misguided concerning the night elves and Elune.

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I think Elunes "Arcane" magic maybe is some special version of nature magic just like we got domination magic in the death realm

What makes you think so?

Ask yourself? Why must it be some special version of nature magic? Who says it isn't arcane magic and why? Is it not fans who have a hard time believing that a priest order can wield anything but light magic? as if they can't train to use weapons and other abilities?

Or a group of fans that think night elves have some sort of arcane incomptaibliity because they totally misunderstand the long vigil and fail to see how present arcane power is throughout that period in the elves and their well or rather all their wells (well of Eternity and Moonwell) - missing that it was only utilsiation for spell power in the way mages did it in their society that was banned because of the effect it could have in drawing the legion back.

Because of this refusal, they miss an entire area of exploration and speculation that can give insights to how the arcane connects to nature. The titans ordered the universe, all life springs from the energy of the well, order (arcane) and nature go hand in hand, almost like nature is a subset of the arcane. Life a fusion of light and arcnae that creates this version of life in the great beyond that requires matter( generated from the arcane) and spirit (from light) - and that specific area is called nature which is it's own speciality.. just like when blue and yellow combine, they cease to be blue or yellow, but become green which is it's own colour even though it is made up of blue and yellow and connected to them, but is it's own spectrum.

They would definitely sit in the "life" part of the spectrum because they are the key powers that enable life ion this side of the equation in the Great beyond.


Fans are entirely missing this exploration to which the night elf story and arcane/nature balance open a door to peer into - or do we think it is for nothing that the night elf is the origin of the mage and druid class? or were they just being absent minded to tell us this race comes from teh arcane, and were the first to study and master magic, in the form that is studied art.

Why would it surprise anyone that such a race's priesthood, it's first leaders would not wield arcane? IT doesn't make them mages necessarily, a mage doesn't look at spiritual matters or implications, nor the philosophy of magic as far as we can tell, they do things with magic, create things like a tool, perhaps a priesthood goes well beyond that, becuas they were the first to unlock this power, and magecraft developed from those who found practical uses for the energy to do very interesting things and made an art of that.

So you won't find priests using the arcane to create tools and conveniences and things a person or society may use, because perhaps that is the difference, , whiles knowing and having it's own use for the arcane, its focus is very different, a power it's religion considers sacred means it has spiritual and philosophical implications that would mean the way it is utilised is very different which is why they invented mages and mages are different from priests, just like physicists are different from engineers or chemists, but all are studying matter.

And am I saying that arcane is all there is to priests of Elune? Ofc not, but Tanaria would mis-interpret me like that, so would Rhlor, despite my first example given was about their martial prowess and never failed to mention their use of light and void in addition to arcane.

The emphasis is on the arcane here because that is the part in dispute, it is not emphasised because I think this is all there is to night elf priestesses and it is some pure arcane order.

[Mace]

@Tanaria - Raven makes a point, I don't see you questioning the priesthood being bow users is not actually bow use because only hunters use bows in the game. Might as well say they can't be warrior like using martial weapons because u know only warriors/rogues do that etc
Paladin is a non priest class that uses light mag magic - showing you that a magic type ahs never been exclusive to one class.. why is it all of sudden impossible for night elven priests to use arcane magic - because that's what mages specialise in?

Are you confusing specialisation with u se? surely night elf priestesses don't have the mastery and application type that mages have with the arcane.. but that doesn't mean they don't use it nor does it mean they weren't the first to start using it either. The game and lore shows and tells us they use the arcane... it's different from how mages do because priests don't go inventing and creating things or purely focus on the arcane.. but that doesn't mean that priesthood doesn't use it.

When it comes to major races, sometimes blizzard will tell a different story than the usual and seek to explain some of their cosmic powers or how a tradition or thing started in the world of warcraft world. Night elves are unusual, because they excelled in a practice beyond the current term, so what is ancient is more advanced than what is present, so you must look at them from a different perspective and base that on what you are told and shown.

Anyway, I thought you had long gone past your denial of night elves use and connection to the arcane.. lets not flog a dead horse aye. Rather than deny or make excuses for what clearly is arcane energy being used by Elune following priests, use the energy to understand how it connects and what it means, to help explore how they've set up this world.

Don't deny the evidence, use it.. don't assume it is a mistake either, it is far too prevalent and consistently shows up too. When this happens, question your assumptions, not the evidence.

[Rhlor]

I think Elunes "Arcane" magic maybe is some special version of nature magic just like we got domination magic in the death realm

This
Life is a cosmic power like arcane

[Tanaria]

@Mace and @ravenmoon

What I'm saying is that we can't mix up the primary arcane use that we see the Mages use and Elune's magic, which contains life energy.

Night Elves are not great masters of the arcane, no race truly is...except the Draenei and Lightforged, who have spent 25,000+ years, studying the magic.

As far as drawing on Arcane power, that is strictly a Mage thing - and it's something the common night elves, under Tyrande and Malfurion, have only just started to do, again.
Their great mastery from 10,000 years ago has bled into other races like the Blood Elves, the Humans and the Nightborne.

And I'm now not quite sure whether Night Elves truly invented the art of the arcane, since the Zandalari Trolls were able to weave powerful arcane enchantments which protected their land from the Sundering. I mean, they must have also spent years studying it, if Zandalar was able to survive the Sundering.

[ravenmoon]

@Mace and @ravenmoon

What I'm saying is that we can't mix up the primary arcane use that we see the Mages use and Elune's magic, which contains life energy.

says who? Follow what you are told and shown.

we are shown that magically offensive night elf priests use the arcane. We are not told if it is the same way mages do - but Elune is involved for sure and it seems less toxic perhaps because as a priesthood it is based on humility and regarding a higher powe.

martially, they use bows and glances. And we know they are a very offensive minded priesthood because of the battles they have had to fight.

but they also contain all the regular elements of usual priesthood’s too, as they’ve been operating for nearly 15,000 years. With some of its members nearly that old.

it is bound to be a unique order. Especially if this is the order that discovered how to use arcane magic so well trying to reach and understand their goddess better.

[Tanaria]

says who? Follow what you are told and shown.

we are shown that magically offensive night elf priests use the arcane. We are not told if it is the same way mages do - but Elune is involved for sure and it seems less toxic perhaps because as a priesthood it is based on humility and regarding a higher powe.

martially, they use bows and glances. And we know they are a very offensive minded priesthood because of the battles they have had to fight.

but they also contain all the regular elements of usual priesthood’s too, as they’ve been operating for nearly 15,000 years. With some of its members nearly that old.

it is bound to be a unique order. Especially if this is the order that discovered how to use arcane magic so well trying to reach and understand their goddess better.

They researched Elune because they thought she lived inside the Well of Eternity. The first Priests and Seers believed she slept under the water.
Remember what the first Well of Eternity was - it was the place where Aman'thul ripped Y'shaarj out of Azeroth. What was left, was the Well of Eternity. Then, said Well descended to the Sunwell and second Well of Eternity, atop Hyjal.

That is when Arcane study took off and when they were able to use that magic to create their Empire.

Again, I think your under the impression that night elves make up the best mages in Azeroth. They don't and haven't done for 10,000 years.
The night elves of today are nowhere near the mastery of the arcane than say, the Blood Elves, Humans, Nightborne or Draenei.

Hell, I'd go as far to say that the Zandalari have a better edge of arcane magic than the alliance night elves do.

Night Elves do have the Shen'dralar, so I think that Eldre'Thalas should be restored and given to the Alliance. Feralas, as a woodland, also given to the Alliance. (Southern Barrens or the Hinterlands are given to the Horde.) But, the new Night Elf city should not be some cheap imitation of Silvermoon (with it's update.) Indeed, the new Night Elf city should reflect Druidism, the Sentinel Army, the Wardens and the Sisterhood. The Arcane/Highborne stuff can be given to Eldre'Thalas, but that place is an Alliance hub. Not the capital city of the night elves.

[ravenmoon]

SNIP.

You are trying to deny arcane presnece in night elves and their priesthood, despite been shown.

You are looking for all sorts oof other explanations while not even once exploring waht you are shoown and told

Sounds like more night elf arcane denial to me.

. and what's with twisting what we are saying? You are responding as if we are saying night elf priestesses are mages.. you are either being manipulatively misleading (putting words in others' mouth) or just terrible at second guessing what we are trying to say. How about not trying to guess what we are saying and actually read what we are saying .. don't think we have some agenda or hate blood elves or anything like, that.. take what we say about night elves based on what we write, not what you think we are saying.

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This
Life is a cosmic power like arcane

Is it that you don't like to read or just don't like to understand when it comes to night elves?

life is one thing, pantheon of life is something else... are you confusing the two?

Weren't you responded to earlier on, and pointed out that because you are are part of the pantheon of death, doesn't mean the only magic you cast is death magic. I mean did you not see each of the covenant leaders using multiple magical powers? When have you ever seen Elune's followers not use arcane, void or light?.. So because she is pantheon of life all of a sudden she is nature.. and can only wield life magic, despite quite the contrary shown to you through her followers and those who call on her name for their spells?

Come on Rhlor... THINK !!! Or do you only engage your brain when it comes to blood elves?

[Tanaria]

SNIP

I'm simply stating what the lore is.

Night Elf Priests and Seers studied the well because they thought Elune slept beneath it.

And the Priestess' skills with the Elune's Arcane are thanks to their faith in said, Elune. Not some great mastery of Arcane sorcery.
You want night elves to be these great masters of arcane, both sorcery and Elune-wise, and they simply aren't at the former.

They are probably on par with the Orc Magi, who extend from the powerful Ogre Mages from Draenor.

[Beloren]

The arcane and Elune are connected - everyone sees the night elf priests use arcane powered spells, - and not all mention "Elune" in them.. but Elune is totally the inspiration they call on to wield their powers, and probably the provider of some of those powers too. .the magic type is arcane.

I imagine it is a bit of both? some they have learnt and developed themselves, and others happen when they call ot her in prayer. Priests do learn how to do things themselves, although faith is what they rely on the most. Faith is probably what makes them super powerful beyond normal magic, because divine super beings interject.. So if Starfall was an Elune response rather than a craft spell, it would be devastating because it's the goddess responding.
i would conclude that he power of the spell is partly based on the level of the priest's faith, but I wouldn't say all the spells are faith based either, anymore than all the priest's skills a, knowledge and abilities are faith based. Especially if Priestesses are expert bowmen or glaive wielders, they could also wield spells themselves that don't need to call on the goddess.

So it's probably both.. a mage may entirely wield spells by study, but a night elf priest may do a bit of both, because their race probably had been learning spell work since early childhood.. so it's only the greater works that the real distinction happens.

One has to wonder how the priesthood stayed so influential and powerful at the height of an arcane dominant era? It's not just because of the night warrior tales of the past, but the power they accessed from the goddess was likely still unmatched by what the night elves at their height could muster up.. but who knows right? Maybe Azshara came close and always envied she couldn't quite eclipse the priesthood with all her wonders she was flogging the Shen'dralar to churn out.. maybe she was motivated by coveting their absolute adoration and envied the place in the priesthood had in the hearts of the people.

Occuleth, a mage, is transfixed and remembers fondly the prayers to Elune coming from the Falanaar temple in Meredil, this must mean that it was a powerful, magical and moving experience of any elf that witnessed it.. the magic and serenity experienced could offer something the arcane couldn't with all their knowledge. Same with nature.

But then this makes sense, their are things the arcane could offer them no one else could, but then so to were things the goddess did, in ways that wen t beyond their knowledge and scope that they couldn't get elsewhere.. this is why you don't just have a mage institution. Their empire had priest, mages and rnature was a core part too. The night elves may not have been that developed at nature back then but the Ancients of lore/wind/war etc would have been - especially if those cities were built by the arcane power wielded by the mages and the nature power in the trees.

Perhaps in the pre-sundering era, the reason the arcane dominated, is because Azshara excelled and developed before a Malfurion could come along and also catapult druids to heights that would have drawn a much larger part of their race in that era to the reverence and practice of nature to this new level.

Perhaps Azshara's striking success in bringing her people along in the arcane is in some ways the source of their inevitable imbalance, because the other balancing half, nature, was under developed.

i'm speculating.

[Tanaria]

the aracne and Elune are connected

Not in the eyes of the Magi, who are the main Arcane-users.

Otherwise, every race is considered an "elune follower" and we know that's ridiculous.

[ravenmoon]

I'm simply stating what the lore is.


Night Elf Priests and Seers studied the well because they thought Elune slept beneath it.


And the Priestess' skills with the Elune's Arcane are thanks to their faith in said, Elune. Not some great mastery of Arcane sorcery.
You want night elves to be these great masters of arcane, both sorcery and Elune-wise, and they simply aren't at the former.


They are probably on par with the Orc Magi, who extend from the powerful Ogre Mages from Draenor.

1. You don't know that. It hasn't been explained. IF you understood faith, beliving and philosophy, it is often the inspiration that is the source behind a person working a thing out.


Faith is essential to the priest's duty, but it never excluudes learning something for yourself.. or do you think drawing a bow and shooting it is entirely powered by faith alone?.




Well the beauty about warcraft is that you can have you own total denial of what you see and make up your version of it, I can hav emine based on what I see and enjoy it.


as long as I get



customisation for my night elf - is hall promptly customise my balance druid, holy priest and arcane night elf mage to have (the others won't use it) and view it as arcane empowerment derived from my race's innate connection to the arcane and the goddess. I'll be fine.


You can imagine it as some non-arcane, placeholder for Elune power blizzard mysteriously forgets to define, nearly 20 years after introducing night elves and countless new spells, magical schools etc they repeatedly show the same aspect.. up to you.


Or you can simply accept it is what it is, and actually try to understand that Elune, the arcane, nature, the night elves -- it's all really connected. And to me, that's way cooler than your denial.

Not in the eyes of the Magi, who are the main Arcane-users.

According to who? The word of Tanaria? How do you know?

Have you been told how the night elf magi view things? or the Nightborne ones for that matter? Not to mention, things could be connected in a way beyond the knowledge of the magi, but not the priest as the oldest scholarly institution amongst the elves...not to mention it could be connected in a way beyond the knoweldge of the priests.


WE know their is a connection, because the powers chart shows them all linked. So what you're saying is b/s. Whether the mages realise it or not. Human and blood elf mages may not be aware of it at all, but you have no idea what night elf mages are ware of, or Nightborne ones, or the priesthood.. so I repeat, how do you know to make such a statement?

You're just assuming, because you want to deny the arcane and fabricate what I'm trying to say. Don't do that Tanarai.

You are clearly shown the Priestesses spells are ALL arcane on the offensive.. as @Beloren says above, whether ALL are from calling on Elune or just some and some they do themselves, who knows, we can only speculate. But it is clear what the magical energy is.

You/we all know very little of the priesthood, because it is not been revealed yet. Just because mages primarily figure out how to do these spells, doesn't mean night elf priests don't do so as well likely to a lesser extent or at least a very different focus - we don't know. .this is an ancient and powerful institution at the heart of the enlightenemnt of the night elves, and seems the main core beyond arcane and nature and tied to both. Anything is possible. We can make some speculation based on what we see and are told. And we see and are told the spells are in the arcane school.

This becomes even more possible, when you consider the inspiration for studying the arcane might very well have been Elune driven, putting the discovery of wielding it coming from the priests. We know there was a priesthood before their was a mage class. Magecraft develops as mastery excels, it's not there originally, and if it was priests studying, could it be that the first mages were originally all priests, and while they broke away to focus on applications of the arcane, it didn't mean those that remained in the order suddenly forgot the magic they had learned nor does it mean they didn't make their own developments and discoveries.

We aren't told. This could entirely be possible in addition to being trained in how to call on the goddess to answer prayers.
What we do know is that those spells, some of which call on Elune, but some that don't (please go read the balance druid spell description for starfall - Elune isn't mentioned, but Elune is mentioned in a few of their spells, showing you not all are prayers, but some are magic they know from the arcane.


It's just arrogant and presumptuous to assume that only mages amongst night elves know how to wiled the arcane.. when you are shown night elf druids and priests also casting arcane based spells and you are told in war of the ancients that night elves learnt spell work alongside reading and writing, knowing that it is part and parcel of their DNA.

Just because magecraft applications amongst the Darnassians were banned during the long vigil, when this ends, do we not see Starfall being cast, and moonfire/starfire.. for all we know they didn't use these spells during the long vigil, but did once the legion returned , they had no mages, so their druids and priests used theses spells alongside human and high elven mages who were casting the arcane as mages.

Furthermore, it could be that these spells were always useable by priests and druids, not because Elune casts them,but because their magic does not originate from Azeorth's leylines or the well but actually from the moon and the stars, and so it isn't Azeroth that is lit up when they are used, meaning they are fine to use in the long vigil..because it was spells that caused Azeroth to be discovered i.e. spells that used the well of eternity, which was the only way mages were casting spells and drawing magic (it hadn't imploded yet so wasn't saturating the atmosphere like it was after the sundering)and thus that was what was banned. Meaning that druids and priests may have always been casting types of spells that draw from the arcane energy of the moon and stars.

You can't separate the night elves from the arcane any more than you can nature.. and why would you want to? This is the purpose of the race.. it was meant to be a hybird dark elf /forest elf with unique elements, it's written into the race and the story of the elves.

[Tanaria]

SNIP.

Your also shown Tauren and Highmountain Tauren using the Arcane, but I don't go around, thinking they are some how, the best in the business.

I'm just here, still thinking that you think the night elves are the best at the arcane and no race can compete with them, yet we know that is b/s.

And the way the Mage lore is set up at present is way cooler than trying to focus it on silly night elves and their little ways with elune.

Plus, who cares about those 2 or 3 night elf mages? I certainly don't and they no longer deserve a voice, in comaprison to races who know what they're talking about. Like Humans, Blood Elves, Draenei...oh wait, are Draenei now "Elune Arcanists" because they were a big mage order?

I mean, all of this is just silly sounding, now. Trying to link everything back because the "precious bloody night elves." Now, Elune is everything to every race? Is that what we're saying. Elune should be everything to Dwarf Mages, Blood Elf Mages, Human Mages...simply because they have Mage sectors and now, because Ravenmoon has said it, "the arcane is connected to Elune." Stop sounding silly, Ravenmoon. Accept that Arcane, in the main and what the majority of races draw upon, is not, in anyway, connected to the stupid nelfs nor their goddess.

And I do know that they studied the well because they thought Elune slept beneath the Well. That's in the lore.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Honestly it's just tiring how the conversation about Night Elves is held hostage by a handful of people that don't understand the difference of "Arcane" as a cosmic force and "Arcane" as a form of study of itself.

"Elune" as an entity is as best perceived as a mix of Light, Life and Arcane cosmic forces; she's not the only being that is related to several cosmic forces.

But she is not the source of those cosmic powers, nor are her worshipers adepts on those magic schools by default.

Modern Night Elves don't (didn't) study the arcane by itself like other races do, they outlawed its practice and study because its dangers. "Mages" were a role banned from their society for 10k years, and only now it has returned.

Elune Worshipers don't wield Arcane by itself, they only really do it through their worship of their goddess, as an element of what we can more fittingly describe as "Astral" powers (Light+Arcane). "Arcane" as a school of magic has completely different roles in the Elune based culture of the Night Elves and other races that study it more like a science. "Arcane" for Night Elven culture predominantly exists under the purview of their goddess' Astral dominion, not by itself.

It's the opposite of how the Blood Elves created the Blood Knights; Instead of worshiping it, their bent it like any other magic source, until they added a theological element to it way later.

As long as people in this thread keep conflating "Arcane" as an aspect of Elune's power, and Arcane as study of it as a power source, and completely misunderstand the incredibly different cultural impact both approaches have, this discussion will keep going around in circles.

[Mace]

Look @Tanaria, there are many things blizzard has thought out and talked amongst themselves, but they don't outright tell us, a lot of it they show us you can piece together from what they show and then writ e it out to explain to someone.

Do they have to outright come up and tell you Night elf pirestes magical offensive spelsl are largely arcane, when they show you??

And if druids have half of their arsenal as such as well, is it not telling you something about the night elf race? That arcane is intertwined and part of their racial toolset, just because initially the Darnassians didn't have mages and came out of a period of arcane practice ban, doesn't mean somehow it's not a part of them, especially as they told you from the outset, where the night elves come from, "a magical arcane well", and that they developed magical powers to a great extent - this isn't new, they told you, an then proceeded to show you that whiles the Darnassians locked up their spellwork, other night elf groups were stilll around who didn't.

ANd also show you that while magecraft was on the bookshelf for darnassians, the arcane Well of Eternity and Moonwells were still very much there, and these people were still filled with that power, and their druids and priests were wielding arcane spells anyway (at least from WC3 final battle onwards), implying the way they do it was safe and not included, which based on the reason a ban is implemented and the bit about how the spellwork that is banned caused the legion to appear, implies it wasn't using the well and the spell descriptions "Match" this conclusions. They are using the stars, the moon and the goddess Elune.

Reading the spell descriptions of Starfall, Moonfire, Starfire, Lunar strike, Starsurge,

Starsurge: "Launch a surge of..."

Starfire: "Calls down"
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=194153/starfire

Starfall: "calls down"
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=191034/starfall


Why do you think all this background information is given? So you can gloss over it as fluff? No, because it informs you of what is going on and what exactly is up with this race.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Right, so by this very logic - Tauren are also great masters of the Arcane.

Considering that Tauren were the first actual race to be instructed in the path of Druidism.

Blizzard don't tell me, but their druid spells are also, very much "arcane."

[Mace]

Honestly it's just tiring how the conversation about Night Elves is held hostage by a handful of people that don't understand the difference of "Arcane" as a cosmic force and "Arcane" as a form of study of itself.

"Elune" as an entity is as best perceived as a mix of Light, Life and Arcane cosmic forces; she's not the only being that is related to several cosmic forces.

But she is not the source of those cosmic powers, nor are her worshipers adepts on those magic schools by default.

Modern Night Elves don't (didn't) study the arcane by itself like other races do, they outlawed its practice and study because its dangers. "Mages" were a role banned from their society for 10k years, and only now it has returned.

Nothing wrong with what you've said here, except this is not what I'm not saying. Nor am I denying this. I know this better than most and in my essays, repeat it several times, if only people read them.

Elune Worshipers don't wield Arcane by itself, they only really do it through their worship of their goddess,

We don't know that. And there is a good reason for saying this as we've tried explaining above.

as an element of what we can more fittingly describe as "Astral" powers (Light+Arcane). "Arcane" as a school of magic has completely different roles in the Elune based culture of the Night Elves and other races that study it more like a science. "Arcane" for Night Elven culture predominantly exists under the purview of their goddess' Astral dominion, not by itself.

It's the opposite of how the Blood Elves created the Blood Knights; Instead of worshiping it, their bent it like any other magic source, until they added a theological element to it way later.

As long as people in this thread keep conflating "Arcane" as an aspect of Elune's power, and Arcane as study of it as a power source, and completely misunderstand the incredibly different cultural impact both approaches have, this discussion will keep going around in circles.

If you mean myself and Raven, I can assure you I very much understand the difference, and it appears you do. I'm not sure Rhlor and Tanaria do or at the very least don't understand what we are trying to say, but that's what Raven's been trying to explain, and so am I . Kinda need to read what we say to understand what we say.

Tanaria is seems to be making assumptions about what we mean, because i'm not sure he understands what we are trying to say.

There is a difference between arcane power/energy and wielding the arcane for spells, but as far as I have been aware, I try to explain or at least give the context I am referring the words to, as does Raven.. this is why there are so many words.



We can speculate about a lot of things, but we know what we know and see. in principle druids and priests tend to call on others for their powers, but that's not an exclusive thing. Druids tend to be able a mix of the two, and priests draw from within, though some believe it's a deity that is responding. however in some cases, a deity does indeed respond, but in yet other cases, there is more to a priest than faith based applications. The Order of Elune is one, it's more than just the light, it's martial fighting skills and who's to say some of it's magic too, the arcane variety is not directly from the priest? Why make the exception here? because priests don't usually access the arcane in any order but this one, neither do they have such an extensive martial wing.. but then few orders are this old and have played that large a role in a global empire.. nor can any priest order boast to be the origin of arcane knowledge. and the likely origin of the mage class too.

So, we can't make that assumption. we know Elune definitely is required for some spells, we don't know if she is for all. Does it matter to my argument? Actually not really.

The way this started was someone saying that night elf priestesses use/cast arcane spells, then someone saying no Elune is life magic - which is not what was been said by the first at all, not to mention was an incorrect statement.

Then Tanaria chiming in that the magic they cast is just a placeholder and isn't really arcane.. which is also not true.. showing that he doesn't either know, or want to admit what he is shown.

now the nuance is the difference between a cosmic power and wielding the power through knowledge, which the ensuing dialogue I hoped we successfully unpacked. But their were leading statements, especially when Tanaria gives an answer to a question that was not asked or opposes a statement that was not made, making it seem that the person he is responding to, (mostly either myself or Raven) made that statement, when we did not.


Problem lies with other readers who only read Tanaria's responses, but ignore Raven's or mine because they are so lengthy and they can't be bothered to read it all (which is rude if you want to hactually have a discussion about what I am saying).. They assume Tanaria or Rhlor is responding to something I said, and never read what I say or what Raven writes fully to find out, that's not what we said at all. Tanaria or Rhlor are misunderstanding or mis-representing.

Hence this predicament.

It would also be solved if they just read what I said. The reason I write that much is to explain what I'm saying properly, but if they won't read it, we will never get anywhere. I'll keep wriging essays, so would Raven, Tanari will keep ignoring them by snipping/skiming and responding to what he thinks I said, which isn't what I said at all. You will come in and ignore what Is aid, and you've blocked Ravenmoon, so you won't see what he wrote, and you assume Tanaria has accurately summed up what either of us has said, when actually he hasn't at all.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

A plotline with the Night Elves and Elune that could have been explored further would have been the one of Elune forgiving and purifying regretful Satyrs and possibly other demons, like how Avrus Illwhisper was forgiven and turned back into a Kaldorei after he reformed and sacrificed himself to save a kaldorei girl.

This could have also been an opportunity of furthering the interactions and bond between the Night Elves and Draenei, if Elune could have done the same to at least one repentant Man'ari Eredar.

[Mace]

Right, so by this very logic - Tauren are also great masters of the Arcane.

Considering that Tauren were the first actual race to be instructed in the path of Druidism.

Blizzard don't tell me, but their druid spells are also, very much "arcane."

Except you never explain how you jump from A to Tion Hegemeony - and how you exactly reached the conclusion that this is waht I was saying. Fourther confirming what Raven is pointing out ot me, that you definitely dont read what we write, you skim, don't pay ateention,a nd there don't understand waht we are saying half the time, because you're not reading it. or mis-represeneting it inteitnoally.

I think you're not reaading it, becuase you're largely only interested in what your views are, you have neither the patience to read when someone is trying to explain themselves or defend their thought.

Granted both of us can be very long, but the constant back and forth warrants a deeper and more involved explanation. If you then just skim it and then get the wrong conclusion about it which is evident by the questions and statements you make or assume we are making, which we weren't..

well it's either we do such a terrible job of communicating it or you just don't read what we write properly because you're being lazy - whether it's because you only care about what you write or you can't be bothered to read essays.

It takes me much longer to write it than it takes you to tread it. I write it to help us communicate better and convey what I mean properly. I can't make progress with you if you don't actually read the material but choose to answer it, often with the wrong question or statement about what we Said.

Others read what you say more because it is brief, they then assume you have correctly summed up what I've said, when you haven't. It ry to respond to your incorrect or mis-interpretation with another essay, and you do exactly the same thing. read a few words, skim the rest, miss the detail that gives the context and ties the argument together, and were are going in circles often saying two very different things and often both being correct in what we are saying, but not actually responding to what I am actually saying because YOU'RE NOT READING IT PROPERLY.


Tanaria, it's so plainly obvious to me when you've actually read what I've said, and obvious when you haven't. You make much better contributions , insights, and counter arguments when you have, and very poor , misplaced, and just totally unrelated statements when you haven't.

And yes I am fully aware the latter happens much more often the longer the post is, but there is a reason for the length, and in the spirit of discussion, you have to read what I say in order to respond to it.

- - - Updated - - -

The arcane and Elune are connected - everyone sees the night elf priests use arcane powered spells, - and not all mention "Elune" in them.. but Elune is totally the inspiration they call on to wield their powers, and probably the provider of some of those powers too. .the magic type is arcane.

I imagine it is a bit of both? some they have learnt and developed themselves, and others happen when they call ot her in prayer. Priests do learn how to do things themselves, although faith is what they rely on the most. Faith is probably what makes them super powerful beyond normal magic, because divine super beings interject.. So if Starfall was an Elune response rather than a craft spell, it would be devastating because it's the goddess responding.
i would conclude that he power of the spell is partly based on the level of the priest's faith, but I wouldn't say all the spells are faith based either, anymore than all the priest's skills a, knowledge and abilities are faith based. Especially if Priestesses are expert bowmen or glaive wielders, they could also wield spells themselves that don't need to call on the goddess.

So it's probably both.. a mage may entirely wield spells by study, but a night elf priest may do a bit of both, because their race probably had been learning spell work since early childhood.. so it's only the greater works that the real distinction happens.

One has to wonder how the priesthood stayed so influential and powerful at the height of an arcane dominant era? It's not just because of the night warrior tales of the past, but the power they accessed from the goddess was likely still unmatched by what the night elves at their height could muster up.. but who knows right? Maybe Azshara came close and always envied she couldn't quite eclipse the priesthood with all her wonders she was flogging the Shen'dralar to churn out.. maybe she was motivated by coveting their absolute adoration and envied the place in the priesthood had in the hearts of the people.

Occuleth, a mage, is transfixed and remembers fondly the prayers to Elune coming from the Falanaar temple in Meredil, this must mean that it was a powerful, magical and moving experience of any elf that witnessed it.. the magic and serenity experienced could offer something the arcane couldn't with all their knowledge. Same with nature.

But then this makes sense, their are things the arcane could offer them no one else could, but then so to were things the goddess did, in ways that wen t beyond their knowledge and scope that they couldn't get elsewhere.. this is why you don't just have a mage institution. Their empire had priest, mages and rnature was a core part too. The night elves may not have been that developed at nature back then but the Ancients of lore/wind/war etc would have been - especially if those cities were built by the arcane power wielded by the mages and the nature power in the trees.

Perhaps in the pre-sundering era, the reason the arcane dominated, is because Azshara excelled and developed before a Malfurion could come along and also catapult druids to heights that would have drawn a much larger part of their race in that era to the reverence and practice of nature to this new level.

Perhaps Azshara's striking success in bringing her people along in the arcane is in some ways the source of their inevitable imbalance, because the other balancing half, nature, was under developed.

i'm speculating.

He gets it, @Tanaria - I can tell he has actually read what we wrote.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

We don't now that. And there is a good reason for saying this as we've tried explaining above.

We do.

Night Elves (Elune Worshipers) don't casts spells the way mages do. It's self evident. Night Elves cast their powers by calling to Elune, it is her who grants them these powers. A Night Elf couldn't cast these without believing in Elune, just like Liadrin couldn't call the light when her belief was broken.

The "Arcane" as part of Elune's power exists as part of her power, not by itself, and Night Elven priests and druids call to it through Elune, not by studyng the arcane as a school of magic. The difference between study and worship should be evident.

It would also be solved if they just read what I said. The reason I write that much is to explain what I'm saying properly, but if they won't read it, we will never get anywhere. I'll keep wriging essays, so would Raven, Tanari will keep ignoring them by snipping/skiming and responding to what he thinks I said, which isn't what I said at all. You will come in and ignore what Is aid, and you've blocked Ravenmoon, so you won't see what he wrote, and you assume Tanaria has accurately summed up what either of us has said, when actually he hasn't at all.

But it's not Tanaria's fault that you yourself obfuscate your own point so much it becomes a chore to even elucidate it. I have been highly critical of how most of your posts are excessively verbose and full of filler, barely making any points at all.

You HAVE to be concise, because you and Ravenmoon are killing this discussion; because it's also really rude to drown other people in walls of text to the point they give up arguing with you.