The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

[Tanaria]

SNIP

I don't have time to be reading through war and peace about nelfs and arcane, when that whole thing was big 10,000 years ago.
Now, it's all done through worship.

Like MywholeLife has said - no faith in Elune = no fancy powers.
My Blood Elf Mage doesn't need faith to cast arcane spells. Henceforth, what you and ravenmoon talk about, when it comes to Elune and her magic is irrelevant to the Mages of Azeroth.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

I thought so too. When we watched it, we really felt the Kaldorei embodied both the Moonshadow elves and the star elves.

But there was more mystery about the star elves because that is an aspect of the night elves blizzard hasn’t fleshed out choosing instead to expand Druid lore over fleshing out the star culture, Elune lore and to a lesser extent arcane lore and demon Hunter lore - In game that is. In the books, the time spent on the arcane and ore sundering as well as demon hunters is just as much as Druidism and would have been more if not for the Novel stormrage.

Elune lore and star culture fleshing out is really low. This is the part the Nightborne can share also. But they are the wrong name for that.

Which is why I propose they carve out new niches tele d deeply to the night rather than the stars which should be an exciting Kaldorei lore development

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We’re really excited about this. I think Raven is going to be maiming a Nightborne from 9.1.5

Members of the Night Elves' intelligence organisation should definitively have additionnal powers related to the moon like even greater enhanced physical abilities under the full moon or able to use shadowmeld while moving unlike their brethren similar to how Moonshadow Elves turn transparent and get incredibly strong under the full moon in the Dragon Prince.

[Mace]

Members of the Night Elves' intelligence organisation should definitively have additionnal powers related to the moon like even greater enhanced physical abilities under the full moon or able to use shadowmeld while moving unlike their brethren similar to how Moonshadow Elves turn transparent and get incredibly strong under the full moon in the Dragon Prince.

Haha yes, I remember this. there was a post about this and the night elves a while ago, it certainly captures the priesthood side of the night elves quite well, but not the druidic nor arcane side. I guess the star elves would capture the kaldorei part of it (the part with the stars and the arcane), but I don't think Dragon prince has a representation for the druidic part.

Be so cool if Warcraft had done something like this. It's such a Night elf copy isn't it.

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It would be very cool if the night elf intellignece had stuff like that. It fits the theme. I suspect it's the Wardens that would be night elf intelligence - they are kinda like the operatives, as well as prison guards, agents, but they have their own distinct feel to them, like a really elite group. And they use moon and night magic in ways we've seen very little of.

[Rhlor]

You are trying to deny arcane presnece in night elves and their priesthood, despite been shown.

You are looking for all sorts oof other explanations while not even once exploring waht you are shoown and told

Sounds like more night elf arcane denial to me.

. and what's with twisting what we are saying? You are responding as if we are saying night elf priestesses are mages.. you are either being manipulatively misleading (putting words in others' mouth) or just terrible at second guessing what we are trying to say. How about not trying to guess what we are saying and actually read what we are saying .. don't think we have some agenda or hate blood elves or anything like, that.. take what we say about night elves based on what we write, not what you think we are saying.

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Is it that you don't like to read or just don't like to understand when it comes to night elves?

life is one thing, pantheon of life is something else... are you confusing the two?

Weren't you responded to earlier on, and pointed out that because you are are part of the pantheon of death, doesn't mean the only magic you cast is death magic. I mean did you not see each of the covenant leaders using multiple magical powers? When have you ever seen Elune's followers not use arcane, void or light?.. So because she is pantheon of life all of a sudden she is nature.. and can only wield life magic, despite quite the contrary shown to you through her followers and those who call on her name for their spells?

Come on Rhlor... THINK !!! Or do you only engage your brain when it comes to blood elves?

Nature is part of life Like arcane is part of order

[Doffen]

My Nightborne from the PTR now. Small details can do so much imo. Better eyes, glowing hands, more hair and tattoo options make it alot more like proper Nighborne.

heritage as awesome as always

[Vaedan]

Haha yes, I remember this. there was a post about this and the night elves a while ago, it certainly captures the priesthood side of the night elves quite well, but not the druidic nor arcane side. I guess the star elves would capture the kaldorei part of it (the part with the stars and the arcane), but I don't think Dragon prince has a representation for the druidic part.

Be so cool if Warcraft had done something like this. It's such a Night elf copy isn't it.

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It would be very cool if the night elf intellignece had stuff like that. It fits the theme. I suspect it's the Wardens that would be night elf intelligence - they are kinda like the operatives, as well as prison guards, agents, but they have their own distinct feel to them, like a really elite group. And they use moon and night magic in ways we've seen very little of.

There are earthblood elves in the universe, but they were not shown in the series yet. I guess those will be nature attuned druidic elves.

Also, Startouch elves seem to gravitate way more towards Nightborne or Void elves though.

[Mace]

Nature is part of life Like arcane is part of order

I'm not sure you understand what being part of the "pantheon of life" means, and cosmic forces from the perspective of a divine super powerful being versus a mortal that handles different magics.

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My Nightborne from the PTR now. Small details can do so much imo. Better eyes, glowing hands, more hair and tattoo options make it alot more like proper Nighborne.

heritage as awesome as always

It looks much better, Nightborne are significantly improved, which is good.. they and night elves really needed improvements, and they need a few more. So glad they got the attention.

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There are earthblood elves in the universe, but they were not shown in the series yet. I guess those will be nature attuned druidic elves.

Also, Startouch elves seem to gravitate way more towards Nightborne or Void elves though.

Well Nightborne are just a vein of night elves, but yes I agree there, they are the part of the night elves that is star focused, so are the void elves the part oft he high elves that are star focused.

Meanwhile the main group night elves encompass a much larger bracket including the stars through Elune and the arcane, but nature also and fel through Malfurion and Illidan's disciplines. same with blood elves, except with blood elves they defintiely split void elves for void and blood elves for light. Rather than have blood elves do both. .but that's fine,

Currently the alliance bracket seems more complete, because in high elves you get the light and in void elves the void, but blood elves don't have void. If you include the San'layn though and dark fallen, then blood elves have the undead element while high elves have the void elves.


I'm really interested in seeing the earthblood elves now and Star elves.. hopefully season 5?

I always felt the night elves encompassed the Moon elves, the Star elves and the earth touched elves (obviously, the stars, the moon and nature are their 3 main things - although blizzard hasn't fleshed out much of the stars and moon bit. .just mentioned it a lot without much detail). Whiles the blood elves were the sun elves.. The void is kinda a unique concept not duplicated, but it would be closest to the star elves especially now that the star elves are looking more to be the "dark power" bunch. There is also no undead in Dargon Prince

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Haha yes, I remember this. there was a post about this and the night elves a while ago, it certainly captures the priesthood side of the night elves quite well, but not the druidic nor arcane side. I guess the star elves would capture the kaldorei part of it (the part with the stars and the arcane), but I don't think Dragon prince has a representation for the druidic part.

Be so cool if Warcraft had done something like this. It's such a Night elf copy isn't it.

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It would be very cool if the night elf intellignece had stuff like that. It fits the theme. I suspect it's the Wardens that would be night elf intelligence - they are kinda like the operatives, as well as prison guards, agents, but they have their own distinct feel to them, like a really elite group. And they use moon and night magic in ways we've seen very little of.

The Watchers and Wardens are like the police and special ops of the Night Elves but they don't give a spy and secret agents feeling.

Their names are known, their armor and main weapon are hardly made for stealth and don't fit spies, and they are never shown spying inside and outside the NE territories.

Members of Kaldorei intelligence should be far more discreet and less known, have outfits made for stealth and agility, frequently disguise themselves and their identities shouldn't be known publicly ofc.

I could see some frictions between them and the Watchers.

[Mace]

The Watchers and Wardens are like the police and special ops of the Night Elves but they don't give a spy and secret agents feeling.

Their names are known, their armor and main weapon are hardly made for stealth and don't fit spies, and they are never shown spying inside and outside the NE territories.

Members of Kaldorei intelligence should be far more discreet and less known, have outfits made for stealth and agility, frequently disguise themselves and their identities shouldn't be known publicly ofc.

I could see some frictions between them and the Watchers.

That's true, from what we've seen so far, but they are so vague about so much, that when they flesh these groups out they can literally make them anything. So they could make the wardens that, as you know they can stealth as well,

Unless you are saying they should have a secret night elf organisation that is dedicated to that. I'd buy that also, it would be interesting.

[Rhlor]

My Nightborne from the PTR now. Small details can do so much imo. Better eyes, glowing hands, more hair and tattoo options make it alot more like proper Nighborne.

heritage as awesome as always

So cool!! I love it

[Mace]

@MyWholeLifeIsThunder I hope you don't mind me using my second response to you to address a wider issue and make some salient points to the community at large. Do note, in the text, I mainly not responding to you, a lot of it is responding to some of the conceptions and confusions I feel parts of the community have over some issues, using your very good point (and I am genuine, I mean good points you have made) as the stepping stone to highlight the distinctions. There is nuance that I feel needs pointing out to address some of the conflation that goes on. I wanted to do a deeper dive to clear up a few things. So please be patient, and don't be offended. It is not an attack.

I do really like the idea of Eldre'thalas being reclaimed by the current day alliance Highborne and their descendants

I could live with that, I might have a different vision for the night elves, but the bottom line is that I want the kaldorei to have a visual representation of their civilization available to them in the present, doing it justice. If that means we get Eldre'thalas as a Highborne city instead of my preferred capital for all night elves, with the other night elves having another less urbanised place, then I can accept that and will be content.

as much as I believe that mainstream NE identity has moved way past their imperial and arcane era, it doesn't change the fact that a section of the kaldorei and their descendents would still want to reclaim such past.

And I must point out a nuance here. While I agree 100% the current kaldorei (as a race overall) have long since moved past the dominance of the arcane in their society as a whole (never to return), like the way it was in the legion invasion period of the pre-sundering era where arcane dominated, like it does in Nightborne society now... this is not the same as having moved past cities or cities being beautiful, I noticed some Belf fans (not yourself necessarily Thunder) seem to think. Nor is it saying that those that do practice the arcane amongst them aren't incredibly skilled or capable of great things that reflect their past accomplishments in the field they've continued either. I make the point because I notice some erroneously think the kaldorei would never have a city with gorgeous/great temples and buildings, or would never be good at arcane magic or use it again (as if doing so is somehow against the race) - all clearly false, they think the kaldorei would never have a civilization and nothing from the pre-sundering era would ever return. Also false. What is true is that the arcane practice would never be dominant (as in prevalent) amongst everyone, as the main/only thing most do far more than any other magics.

The nuance I want to expand on in addition to the earlier notes is that arcane dominance like you said won't be around, nor addiction, and abuse like it was previously in the tail end of the pre-sundering era (the Legion invasion period).

They haven't moved past doing things beautifully when they do them,
It's important I feel to point this out, whether beautiful buildings, cities and/or temples whether wood or marble for large or small settlements - because that's just part of kaldorei identity. And blizzard has a style for each they have shown us. Nor will customs (star culture, religious, civilization/city based ones developed in the past), their method of doing civilization etc , that won't have changed from pre-sundering times. Habits that developed due to addiction would change - but not the style of the kaldorei (which blizzard establishes and shows is specific for large urban dwellings (the cool marble stuff) and remote rural ones (the cool wood stuff), nor would the core customs and characteristics of a star forward gazing night society that already has established customs for a civilisation and for rural areas change significantly. Character and attitudes however , would change, and blizzard has shown us they have. They've basically shown us what has changed, and what hasn't changed.

When they do urban they would do beautiful temples, houses, floral arrangements, vases, paintings - with what they have, if they have just nature magic(like in the long vigil), it would be out of wood, if they have arcane and nature together, marble like they do currently once again and like they did in the pre-sundering era).

PART I - A Salient Point on Cities wrt Night Elves

And now, the night elf nation requires both an urban centre and a civilization, although for many of them, it isn't essential. [a city isn't essential for the druid order (a forest is), nor is a city essential for the priest order (people and a temple are), a city is essential for a civilization, a nation that wants to grow (not be isolated), is interested in trade, has alliances (allies - that need a centre to visit, an embassy)and international relationships, wants to do family life and progress in fields of study, centres where nation wide institutions are administered from in a way they can meet and communicate regularly and manage how the nation operates (this is why you have Headquarters of your various Orders all normally in a centralised locations - it makes for far better organisation .. and night elves mastered this in the pre-sundering times, just because that era ended with some serious abuse of magic/addiction and the legion or they had a 10,000 year pause, doesn't mean 1. they forgot how to do it or 2. would not do it in the same excellent way they did it in the pre-sundering era.

It is important to distinguish what of the pre-sundering eras invasion period would b gone and never come back and what would. Fans think cities and beautiful buildings will all be gone, but doing tings well whether organisationally or intelligently or building beautifully aren't tied to corruption and addiction. So those will come back when the kaldorei societies that stopped doing them for other reasons need to do them again. what won't come back is everyone ignoring nature and not paying attention to Elune's teaching and nearly everyone just solely focusing on the arcane, nor would abusive use of the arcane return in that reckless manner - they know where that lead them, and refraining from abusing their magic doesn't mean they would somehow not be as good with it, it actually means the opposite, they'd go further and be better because they'd not be destroyed by arrogance/hubris and can actually find even more applications for it. Fans have wrongly thought night elf change means they cant have cities or use magic well anymore or would never do things beautifully, it doesn't mean that at all.

Things like cities, a civilisation, centralised activity, urban customs, even skilful powerful use of arcane -such things that were not necessary or banned and thus not pursued during The Long Vigil Period of Isolation and Guarding The Well of Eternity, but now, post that Vigil/WC3 war, would be necessary for a part of the night elves, and has nothing to do with the forest work of the druids or the faith religion of the priests, though those of these orders there can operate and often need to (priests will be wherever people are, whether and urban group, highborne Mage group or in a forest where Druid people are for example.

• Why and Who Needs A City

So druids or priests that lead in a city (like Tyrande and Malfurion did in Darnassus) would have to take time out of their profession and Order duties for civic duties. In the same way a forest is necessary for druids as environ and a temple for priests (even though they can operate in other environs) so to a city is also necessary for arcane wielders like the Highborne, Moonguard and scholars, because that aspect of night elf society is strongly tied to cities. Which is why inevitably, it would be civilians or Highborne that end up civic ruling. The night elves as a nation aren't solely a priest nation, nor solely a druidic entity, those are just parts of the total that have very specific goals and duties (they changed to suit the things their new era demanded not because they hated cities or magic or couldn’t do them - new situation required necessary approach and the best night elf group never hesitated to change, even when it meant abandoning arcane practice or abandoning 10k year long isolation, abstinence of arcane practice or civilization) .

When the society has enough mass and function, civic duties are beyond the duties of a priest, a high priest would likely a point a civic ruler to carry civic duties, while she carries her main function as a priest. Which is why arcane users and civilians will flourish there.

• Night Elves Shifted AGAIN from purely rural to a mix of urban and rural to meet the needs of Their New POST WC3 Situation

If the society reaches a stage or a place where a drastic change of operation is needed, like it did after the sundering, when it shifted from just living and growing to now defending the world against demons and preventing anyone from finding the Well of eternity or discovering the most powerful source of arcane magic - which necessitated a martial leadership, not a civilian one, or an organisation that does these functions, then those lead. Which is why the Order of Elune led in the sundering, because it had a strong military, and most of the men were on nature business instead.. Neither a city, nor international relations, family life or civilization growth were required for the era and task the night elves of the north did during that period.

So it's not that they had outgrown cities or moved past doing things beautifully, there just wasn't a need for it given the task of the long vigil. But when that ends, and they join the world again, form international relationships, don't have to watch and guard only, they can start having a life, growing, require a city and hence Darnassus is built. and when they build, they would build like they did before, it would be beautiful, whether done in wood or marble and it would have a similar grand style like it did, because that's just how they do that sort of thing.

• Darnassian Society As is Shouldn't Ever Be Arcane Dominant

What would not come back is the arcane addiction and abuse dominant society.. note that arcane excellence and distinction can (and should) return (also already be there now -thanks to Shendralar and Moonguard), and amongst mages the arcane would be 100% dominant, it's just that in the wider society - whether cities or elsewhere it wouldn't overwhelm nature users or obfuscate priest users as this is what the vast majority of the race does. Repeat: it won't be the case where everyone only does arcane , like it was just before the legion invaded (pre-sundering), but it also wouldn't be the case that everyone does nature and only hunts in the forest like in the Long Vigil either. Now some night elves would do arcane, some nature, some the priesthood, and all 3 would be highly respected.. This is how the society would be different from a racial perspective than it was during the end of the pre-sundering era and the long vigil era, - so note that it won't be different by having shoddier buildings or a not so nice city. or at least it shouldn't. This is not how difference will be shown

According to the lore, the earlier pre-sundering night elf population was more balanced this way, but the current one, has the biggest potential, because they are now so advanced in their arcane knoweldge (thanks to moonguard and shndralar), druidic knowledge (thanks to Malfurion over the lst 10k years) and ofc the priesthood, that's a 15,000 year institution specialising in martial and arcane/void warfare as well as the light and shadow for both normal and abnormal priestly duties. Then finally fel usage experts of which demon hunters are the greatest (they are more experienced with fel than warlocks are by lore). This level of spread and balance is unique to modern times, and collectively, They have the potential to go the furthest as a people and shine the brightest.

• Potentially Now, NElves Can be the Best they'v Ever Been

Also please note, that by that statement I don't mean they need to have a world dominating empire to be at their brightest, no, for their brightest means the highest heights of the arcane, of nature, of Elune knowledge of fel usage they've ever achieved, and we see it, we see it via the most beautiful cities they've ever been able to build, the most verdant and gorgeous forests they've ever been able o cultivate, the most effective their priesthood has ever been, boh by gorgeous temples and influence on other population's and the most effective at fel usage/ hunting demons etc. They can achieve this by been shown to do impossible feats, like control their 15 zones, powerfully against all their enemies, with such small numbers, and actually develop and employ incredible tools of arcane and nature, as well as harnessing thier powers in the well of eternity and emerald dream to levels never seen before and in ways responsible ways) they didn't quite manage under Azshara) which they should now having learnt humility, the need to respect these greater powers.

• How The Night Elves Can Be Shown as Great Again

this is how you show them being great.. they don't need to rule the world, just do impossible feats and produce amazing things. The Kaldorei ruled the world 10k years ago, they don't need to again, but they are a great race, and the original Elf, they should be amazing in the things they originated and should reflect the billing they were originally cast as - i.e. a titanic race with incredible pedigree in magic and ranged fire power.

They don't need to be invincible - 20 years has shown that more than enough and actually beaten them down a lot, now i's time to show them as great.. so they ned to show them produce incredible things and have the sort of incredible victories that make them feel like one of the deadliest and most powerful races around, without actually changing much.

This is what fans always wanted. They billed the night elves as a titanic race, but then showed them as losers for 20 years of warcraft. They are not an aggressor race, so they won't be going on conquest sprees, all blizz needs to show is no one able to overthrow the night elves in their 15 zones (use some powerful attempts rebuffed incredibly by them), do an incredible city, with an incredible temple and an incredibly beautifully restored forest, and when night elves are involved, in any battle or activity, show them off as super cool and powerful Sometimes show druids (not only druids), sometimes how Highborne, sometime show moon priestesses, sometimes show Moonguard, sometimes show Wardens, sometimes show Sentinels, and sometimes show Illidari Night elves - not just one, mix it up. Whether an individual or groups, and show groups.

They don't need to do massive stuff. Geographically, I would say two cities, Eldre'thalas (new really cool city - centre of trade, learning and the international outward looking face of the night elves that mixes with other nations etc - think New York), and probably Nar'thalas (the repaired version they have already done - their Broken Isles centre), and Vatican type Temple city on Hyjal (think Washington D.C), i.e. a massive temple, some cool buildings as the governmental centre, but lots of forest and druid stuff too.

Fully Restored Ashenvale, Restored Val'sharah, work in progress Desolace and Felwood (i.e. partial restored forest, some works on cities

PART II - Kaldorei are Different Now than to Invasion period: Here is how:

The lifsetyle in the city would be dramatically different now (i.e. after WC3, so wow era), but then it would have been at various stages in the pre-sundering era. by the time Azshara opened the doors to the Legion, arcane was practice was dominant, but when the cities were built and the civilization was flourishing , the priesthood was dominant, with the arcane and nature still strong - as seen by the heavy nature influences..

(now for those who conflate and don't distinguish the two (not you necessarily MyWholeLifeIsThunder)It's not cities or beautiful things/buildings the kaldorei have moved past (their absence in the pre-sundering era is because of lack of means to build things to that level rather than moving past), their lifestyle and calling then necessitated a different way of living that had no need for cities. It is arcane dominance, where everyone was largely only using arcane, with no one using/studying nature and the preisthood that largely only lip service was paid too.

[Back to the present] Now out of isolation, there is a portion of their nation that would require a city for operations and civilization purpose, and with the means to build to the level of before available both in power and expertise, they'd do exactly that.

1. Not all night elves would live in cities or live the city life. And;
2. The type of city life would not necessarily be arcane dominant like itw as in the first invasion era or like you see in Suramar now
3. There will still be societies of night elves that would continue living without a city or need for it (just like some night elves would be completely apart from Darnassian society and live as Illidari.

Neither these druidic night elves nor these illidari night elves won't be involved in faction affairs, or international affairs, trade and proliferation whether they consider themselves Darnassian or Illidari, and allies or jus neutral to each other. Those druidic communities would be dedicated to the protection of nature, even though the long vigil is ended, that work continues much the same like it did, and it doesn't need cities, the arcane, civilization etc. And these won't negate some druids choosing to live int he city, tending the great parks and gardens.

It' just that people need to be aware that that forest life isn't all there is to the night elves and isn't all the night elves need. Whether it's big or small. And that fans would like to see justice done to all the facets of the kaldorei - druidic (which has happened), priesthood (which is yet to happen), arcane & civilization (which has yet to happen) and fel using demon hunters (which has happened)

I hope there is clarity here

A fully modern Highborne city on a more jungle environment would look just pretty sweet.

I agree, and it would be full of gardens and parks too overflowing the beautiful buildings, having ancients walk it's streets, but the difference would be you'd see a much heavier arcane using society similar to Suramar, if it was a Highborne only city. If it was a night elf capital, it is this part that would change. It would still have beautiful buildings and gardens and parks, but it won't be an arcane dominant society, priests would likely be the ruling caste, Highborne a powerful caste, then trades men, craftsmen and other groups in the city, like the military (, Moonguard (if restored) etc, even a contingent of Illidari if they want to include those. Druids too, some of which would be night elves and not just Ancients would also be involved. Not arcane dominant but balanced.

[kevinjack089]

The early night elf priests and seers studied the Well with an insatiable curiosity, driven to plumb its untold secrets and power

[Mace]

The early night elf priests and seers studied the Well with an insatiable curiosity, driven to plumb its untold secrets and power

Indeed. It easily explains why their offensive spells are arcane , but having their own study and research that isn’t independent of their faith explains why they weren’t affected by the hubris and addiction that consumed the society at the end.


It’s much harder to be arrogant when you truly believe in a higher more powerful being that is real.

It also ould have been out of these that the Mage class developed.

Easily see some night elves choosing to focus on applications of arcane that helped people in more practical ways. That’s a priest inspired motive which over centuries would have expanded as knowledge expanded and been its own thing called magecraft- focusing on practical applications.

It is very likely it would have been some priests focusing on this, eventually instituting the Mage guilds leading to no. Priests studying their craft which doesn’t really require faith (whether they had faith or not) but only know how.

Azshara could have been a priest turned Mage or one of the earlier non priests learning the craft and helping develop it to the heights it reached.

The priesthood would probably have know how about the arcane their own studies which would have continued, just that the main difference being spirituality focused rather than arcane learning focus.

Why it is hard for anyone to believe based on the lore we are given that studying the arcane, just like studying archery, hunting, martial arts defends, and void too.

What is clear that there is a connection between night elven priests, Elune, the arcane, mages, the pre sundering society, nature amd Druidism.

It is so clear. The arcane and nature are in all of these. It’s just the levels, focuses and degrees are different.

People think the night elven ore sundering civilization is entirely arcane Mage construct. That’s not possible. Arcane dominance came much later, towards the end and with it the imbalance that caused addiction and opened the door to the compromise in values that led to the reckless action of summoning the Legion.

The priests, the Druidic nature wielding ancients and the mages together all created the most beautiful civilization and centre of study, advancement and progress.

It’s only later it became totally arcane obsessed and dominant.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

That's true, from what we've seen so far, but they are so vague about so much, that when they flesh these groups out they can literally make them anything. So they could make the wardens that, as you know they can stealth as well,

Unless you are saying they should have a secret night elf organisation that is dedicated to that. I'd buy that also, it would be interesting.

I think that this organisation should be at least far more discreet that the Watchers, and also than the SI:7 is, with the identity of its leaders and other members being only known of the Night Elves top leaders and them staying in the shadow most of the time while doing really important stuff from behind the scenes.

[ravenmoon]

• How The Night Elves Can Be Shown as Great Again

this is how you show them being great.. they don't need to rule the world, just do impossible feats and produce amazing things. The Kaldorei ruled the world 10k years ago, they don't need to again, but they are a great race, and the original Elf, they should be amazing in the things they originated and should reflect the billing they were originally cast as - i.e. a titanic race with incredible pedigree in magic and ranged fire power.

They don't need to be invincible - 20 years has shown that more than enough and actually beaten them down a lot, now i's time to show them as great.. so they ned to show them produce incredible things and have the sort of incredible victories that make them feel like one of the deadliest and most powerful races around, without actually changing much.

This is what fans always wanted. They billed the night elves as a titanic race, but then showed them as losers for 20 years of warcraft. They are not an aggressor race, so they won't be going on conquest sprees, all blizz needs to show is no one able to overthrow the night elves in their 15 zones (use some powerful attempts rebuffed incredibly by them), do an incredible city, with an incredible temple and an incredibly beautifully restored forest, and when night elves are involved, in any battle or activity, show them off as super cool and powerful Sometimes show druids (not only druids), sometimes how Highborne, sometime show moon priestesses, sometimes show Moonguard, sometimes show Wardens, sometimes show Sentinels, and sometimes show Illidari Night elves - not just one, mix it up. Whether an individual or groups, and show groups.

They don't need to do massive stuff. Geographically, I would say two cities, Eldre'thalas (new really cool city - centre of trade, learning and the international outward looking face of the night elves that mixes with other nations etc - think New York), and probably Nar'thalas (the repaired version they have already done - their Broken Isles centre), and Vatican type Temple city on Hyjal (think Washington D.C), i.e. a massive temple, some cool buildings as the governmental centre, but lots of forest and druid stuff too.

Fully Restored Ashenvale, Restored Val'sharah, work in progress Desolace and Felwood (i.e. partial restored forest, some works on cities .

This WoD be so easy to do too.

1. show them acquiring power

Elune - night warrior power
Arcane - harnessing the Well
of Eternity
Nature - harnessing the Emerald Dream via their 2 world trees.

Fel - Illidari that help, harness Marduum’s power

Why?
Need to show how so few a people can be win and do so well. They need power.

2. Show them really badass in fights. Don’t just write they get it all back. Show powerful enemies coming against them and they totally outclassing them in skill and power. Make it cool, make it badass every time.

I like how you mention sometimes it’s a druids, sometimes it’s mages , sometimes wardens, some times priestesses. Never just one group,

I also like that when a night elf is in a group, they do some tho one special or make a heroic contribution

3. Definitely nee city and pristine forest.

there is no reason why night elves on the alliance can’t do a city better than Zin’Azshari. There shen’dralar highborne have 10,000 years more knowledge, their Ancients who built it are still around. Night elf druids are so much more powerful now too than back then. And if they are harnessing the well and the emerald dream.

it should surpass Zin’Azshari. Nar’thalas pristine and another smaller settlement on Hyjal would be good.

Ultimately this is what fans want to see. They need to show the night elves soundly beating the orcs and blood elves too. Because these are the two player races that blizzard humiliated the night elves with and you kinda need to show that the current night elves are a different ball game.

for the rest, I think it’s better to show the night elves doing impossible things other races can’t. This includes both defeating enemies or armies no one could or being the turning point that caused the races to beat those things.

but I like how it is not only in fights you show them great.

Might elf arcane mages have a wrong reputation of being green where the Moonguard are the most powerful battle mages and the Shen’dralar the creative engine room of the astonishing arcane wonders of the empire they built for the Queen.

neither group stopped practising the arcane. So you have to show some exceptional things they do.

e.g. some special wonders and marvels in their new city.

Occassionally they would devise the magical solution to a problem no one, not the Loron’Tor, the blood elves or Nightborne could. (Not all the time, sometime it would
nenother groups that solve a problem).

but like Wrathion sought them out. They would be the last call for mysteries no one else can solve because of their vast ancient knowledge. While the physical libraries were lost, you’d be foolish to think the knowledge wasn’t preserved magically.

but like all bookworms, an. Original hard copy edition is priceless, even if you have the data stored magically or on a computer. It also means the knowledge is a lot more exclusive.

not just highborne. It’s high time they start showing more of the schorlarly side of the druids. We get this a few times in TBC, but druids aren’t shaman instinctly grappling with magic all forces from elemental spirits they bargain or beg to lend. These are learned biologists, plant experts in both knowledge and magic as Malfurion applied the schorlarly distinction of his race in its golden era of learning to the nature arts. Something no one had done at that point (because the arcane was dazzling them so
much they arrogantly thought it wasn’t needed) and is how it developed into a full fledged craft they started calling Druidism.


4. Delve more into the star culture, traditions and how both magic and a people have the stars at the centre of everything, from the Goddess, to arcane wielding, to nature, to naming a child, building a city, travelling and teleporting, deciding the destiny and fate of a child. Guiding them spirituality. Organising structurally around. As well as harnessing it’s powers, seeking other worlds (which is how contact with the Legion was made - but pointing out that it wasn’t the intellectual curiosity or skill, but the arrogance of heart which leads you to ignore taking better precautions, warns you that something you aren’t quite ready for so you should wait longer, study more, shouldn’t stress or over do it out of safety and common sense - all things the very arrogant and reckless ignore - which is why the legion was able to infiltrate them so)

There is room to show this now.

6. Better customisations. I like how demon hunters have a range of customisations reflecting them

i still want the arcane and star tattoos that double both as a representation of the magic of the priesthood and the arcane element in the night elves.

Also better jewellery and as few neater hairstyles for those who want the more sophisticated civilised/ look to have more options. Doesn’t have to be as detailed as the Nightborne. But a bit more than current

[OwenBurton]

I don't have time to be reading through war and peace about nelfs and arcane, when that whole thing was big 10,000 years ago.
Now, it's all done through worship.

Like MywholeLife has said - no faith in Elune = no fancy powers.
My Blood Elf Mage doesn't need faith to cast arcane spells. Henceforth, what you and ravenmoon talk about, when it comes to Elune and her magic is irrelevant to the Mages of Azeroth.

Elune's connection to the arcane is a very complicated one. I wonder whether she and Eonar had some kind of cosmic exchange on Elunaria long ago - perhaps teaching each other their different powers, Eonar (as an Arcane Titan) learning Life-based powers, and Elune (as a Life-based being) learning Arcane powers.

I think the night elves, being the "children of the stars" and who evolved as a race due to proximity to the Well of Eternity do have a natural arcane heritage, one need only look at their skin color, for example. But I do think Elune has no direct connection to the OTHER magic-wielding races, such as the Thalassian elves and possibly even the nightborne (who likely rejected Elune).

Do you think something could be done about Nazjatar, perhaps it is raised to the surface or something, like what happened with other places in the past? Perhaps the night elves and nightborne (and even the blood and void elves) both want to reclaim it as their capital or something, especially as Azshara is gone, and most of her surviving followers are severely weakened?

For the Horde:
1. Lor'themar and Thalyssra are stronger than ever in their unity, their peoples have joined forces.
2. The blood elves and nightborne want to reclaim Nazjatar to make sure that they establish a center Highborne power base and center of magic, completing the set, so to speak, along with Quel'Thalas and Suramar, and they might have much to uncover and research in the city now that Azshara is gone. Quel'Thalas, Suramar and Zin-Azshari, the three ancient cities, united and linked once again...that would be pretty impressive.

For the Alliance:
1. The night elves lack a current capital (Nordrassil is likely temporary only) - reclaiming Nazjatar would mean they have a new home, and reconnect with some of their ancient roots, such as in the Warbringers Azshara cinematic.
2. The void elves also lack a real home (other than that piece of rock floating in outer space), and they are also of Highborne heritage. They might also want to research and experiment there, especially given Azshara's connection to the Void and N'Zoth's lingering energies there.

[Mace]

Wrote a response to you explaining g the Nightborne situation with Elune.

But browser did some thing funny and lost it. M

Tanaria is a blood elf fan, so everything he sees is from that perspective, he misses nuances about the night elves because his attention is primarily on BElves.

Nightborne love their Kaldorei heritage
We don’t know exactly what their priests follow because we aren’t told. We know they love Elune
They love their Kaldorei origin, everything they have is from that culture and state anyway.
They think Tyrande is hot - arrogant types are turned on the more pouty and attitude you are towards them anyway - it’s more high breed of you. Tyrande prob gained a lot of fans as well as rubbed the nose of others the wrong way.

We also don’t know a lot about thenOrder of Elune religion. Elune is the main thing but was never the only thing. The stars are a huge part both in the culture and religion not fleshed out yet.

I would be surprised if Nightborne weren’t Elune followers, they are a night elf breed and the Nightwell that prob replaced Elune is gone now they have the Arcan’dor and nightbelf priests from Val’sharah with them.

It’s Elune

[ravenmoon]

But I do think Elune has no direct connection to the OTHER magic-wielding races, such as the Thalassian elves and possibly even the nightborne (who likely rejected Elune).

.

I have a different view here on the Nightborne. According to the lore, it is the Thalassians that rejected all things to do with the night, including the nocturnal state. Elune is rejected, and many customs and traditions. I try to point out to blood elf fans, that while kaldorei civilization is similar to Thalassian because well Thalassians are highborne descendants, they have to remember a lot of things changed too.

Just because they both love the arcane, and do cities, doesn't mean they are the same at all, and just because they like each other, doesn't mean you can or should transfer all the Thalassian views and regard for the kaldorei to the Nightborne. The nightborne are a night elven culture and civilization, hey are different. Different doesn't mean everything is different like it ss with orcs, there are also lots of similarities, and sometimes this makes it easy to gloss over the differences, especially for the very Thalassian blood elf loving fans so fixated on their race, they completely overlook the nuances and very present kaldorei influences that are literally glaring them in the face.

As @Mace said above, the Nightborne love their kaldorei heritage - you only need pay attention to how the quests with them were written to see this is no kaldorei rejecting culture - quite the opposite.
There is no evidence of Elune hate, Occuleth remembers fondly the prayers to Elune from Falanaar temple and you don't get more mage than Occuleth - (can mages be spiritual or have a spiritual side? Ofc they can, Occuleth, Farondis and his court (those Highborne mention Elune a lot, she even restores one of the priests from a Satyr) - can you be a scientist with spirituality and a brilliant one at that? Ofc, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, and many today, you don't have to be an acolyte/priest to find serenity in worship or love the environment of a beautiful temple. Occuleth mentioned the prayers, which means there woudl have been magic involved, of the kind that would astound any elf, whether a great magician or not. The serenity of Elune - i mean this is a real goddess (in that world) and those priest wield real magic. And Suramar was the HQ of the Order for quite a while before the Legion invasion and march on Zin'Azshari. There is precedence.

The highborne amongst them would not have been big on Elune, but they'd be different from the Thalassians who totally abandoned her (we don't know if she abandoned them though, and would accept them back, they are still elves remember and wouldn't exist without Elune, at least not as elves). Azshara's reign towards the end (not the beginning), would have had highborne know Elune was real, but not interested at all (assuming Occuleth was an exception. or rather highborne communities further away from the royal court would be more like Occuleth, and again, I repeat, towards the end of her reign, it would have been different for the large majority of her reign, when addiction hadn't happened yet and she hadn't become reckless - which happened around the time of the legion invasion, we know this because it is the recklessness, induced by addiction that led to drawing the legion )), paying only cursory lip service like nobles do to clergymen, even powerful clergymen, as the Order of Elune until the royal court, were the leaders of the kaldorei, greatly respected, and often the forefront of kaldorei advancement, it is from them the mage order arose.

It is most likely the males that started applying the arcane studies of the priesthood to applications/conveniences and practical things (I'm speculating here) that leads to magecraft in the first place, it does fit the gender stereotype of males (building stuff, gadgets, practical applications), and if you add t that that the order of Elune is largely female led and run, pioneering the first breakthroughs but also spiritually leading the race via the goddess...and if so, what do you think males would have been doing?


Anyway, the nightborne show no sign of Elune rejection. Even the highborne amongst them would just have continued in arcane focus, the lowborne would have had to rely on the Nightwell like they all did, so it became more of an idol and source of worship (in a metaphorical sense) - with the priesthood gone, sealed up in a bubble, even the natural environment would not be able to sustain them cut off from the outside, they over relied on the arcane power to grossly abusive (if necessary - because it was survival), which is why it changes their appearance a little.

Still though, they preserved their culture for millennia, and very proud of the pre-sundering kaldorei culture, especially the one around the legion invasion period .. and it is here we get our clues.

Without a priesthood, development of faith and teachings of Elune would diminish. However, libraries would have some (likely) for interested parties, although it's possible all those were in the Cathedral of Eternal night, which was separated at the sundering.

Given how proud they are of all things kaldorei, without a doubt some would believe in the goddess a lot, while others a little, some would want to rekindle connection. And feel it a proud part of their heritage, like here in England, you may not be religious, but many who don't follow it consider it a proud part of their tradition and what led to how they are now (humanism), whiles in others, the faith has come alive again and is practised fervently. It would be no different with the nightborne.

Think of it this way, they didn't stop loving the stars even though they were without them for 10,000 years (and remember they aren't humans with many generations past, it's the same generation still alive, so although it's 10k years, nothing has changed, not their enviroment , nor culture, just resources that caused them to dip into the nightwell more and resulted in a few minor biological changes (the ears basically and darker skin tone), nor did they stop loving nature, having extensive botanical gardens, carrying on from the less advanced level of nature magic the night elves had before Malfurion developed it into druidism.

With no Malfurion to teach druidism (remember he is from Suramar too), this is how High Botanist Tel arn develops his skill, until he is seduced by the Legion and is led to start twisting his creations in an abominable sense - which is why we take him out.


What is clear in the Nightborne story, is that they don't hate been kaldorei, being separated from the rest of the kingdom doesn't change them culturally, ideologically or anything, in fact, they consider themselves what remains of the kaldorei, and the continuation of it.

Not the abandonment of it. It is blood elf fans who keep forgetting Nightborne aren't purple blood elves, and don't necessarily hold identical views on everything and are not a mirror culture, just a similar one in some respects like arcane love and certain structural and protocol regards. They are not identical to blood elves.. which is why they will always argue against the kaldorei similarities even though Suramar and the Nightborne story are full of them. Most of these blood elf fans have never read about the ancient kaldorei either, which was greatly expounded in war of the ancients, written at the same time the night elves were created for warcraft 3. I point this out to emphasise, this has been part of the kaldorei from the start, so they realise they are not seeing a version of the blood elf culture, but the blood elf culture is a version of the kaldorei culture - and it's not some vastly different entity, it's all part of what makes the elves, Elves, with all their differences, they have a lot more similarities, that is why they are elves. It surprises them that night elf culture can be like this, and because they don't know the lore, they reject the nightborne culture shown as being kaldorei, though that is exactly what the lore says it is. Just because they see druidic culture looking so different, they can't imagine that there is more to kaldorei than druidic culture, and that is partly because blizzard didn't show it much in game, but to be fair, they wrote tons about it. 3 volumes of the War of the Ancients, Wolfheart the novel, Illidan the novel, and lots of encyclpedia entries and interviews, is not a small amount. But it's not visual, and they don't read, only play, which is why they complain when I or my brother writes essays.

So they don't get informed and spin us on useless arguments because they don't know the lore that well.

The Thalassian culture is a derived one based on the kaldorei but also very different in many ways. The Nightbonre one is the kaldorei one, especially in the vein it was at the invasion period of the pre-sundering era. Fans never think enough about this, because they're not into night elves. How did the Darnasisans change culturally? What would return after the long igil, and what would remain a distinctive part of the legion invasion period of the pre=sundering era never to return?

They just think arcane and pretty cities would never return.. which is rubbish - because they don't understand the long vigil, and why Darnassus is built again, and the need for it. they also don't' understand the ban on magic.. which is not a ban on the arcane magical energy but on spell casting using that source for a very specific reason and a very specific end. This changes how they operate, but it doesn't change their cultures and traditions, their star focus etc. Things that required a city and urbanisation would obviously go, as will conveniences the arcane allowed.. just like our society would change if we had to cut electricity out because it drew evil aliens from space and we decided we would dedicate our lives to hunting them or repairing nature with wild gods and dragons, rather than to forging a new /different future.

Certain roles and functions, like trade, family life, learning and knowledge in many other fields that existed to improve our lives will all cease for that period, hence our mode of operation would be drastically different, but as a super intelligent race with perfect memory, who remain physically unchanged, we wouldn't forget all the old things and the good things we did and built. So when the need to return back to life before the mandate of the Long Vigil of the Legion arose, we would return to the way it was when they did civilization (i.e. the pre-sundering era).. this is why Darnassus buildings are pre-sundering Zin'Azshari etc style, the architectural style hasn't changed, the culture style hasn't changed.. its still the same kaldorei.

What has changed is the attitude. The arrogance and recklessness that was prevalent in all of them during the invasion period is gone. As is the arcane dominance in the society - and as Mace pointed out, dominance is "everyone does the arcane and only the arcane" or nearly everyone (priest caste aside).. now a lot of people do nature which has some arcane involved). a lot do priest stuff, and while those who do arcane are growing, it's a smaller portion.. but that doesn't mean it is less skilled or less powerful.. it's led by the scholars and groups that are legendary so, it would be a powerful Order.

[Mace]

For the Horde:
1. Lor'themar and Thalyssra are stronger than ever in their unity, their peoples have joined forces.
2. The blood elves and nightborne want to reclaim Nazjatar to make sure that they establish a center Highborne power base and center of magic, completing the set, so to speak, along with Quel'Thalas and Suramar, and they might have much to uncover and research in the city now that Azshara is gone. Quel'Thalas, Suramar and Zin-Azshari, the three ancient cities, united and linked once again...that would be pretty impressive.
.

I really don't like the derivative elves having the birth place of the night elves, when they've (well mainly the blood elves have llong moved away)

In the minds of fans, they want to link this to the blood elves because of the arcane prevalence ... but they base that on the bad assumptions the night elves and the arcane are mutually exclusive.. which isn't true at all.

Furthermore, this is the birth place of the night elves, it is the place they dwelt for thousands of years. Just because the end of the pre-sundering era was marred and the Darnassians had to move away from spell casting doesn't negate everything. It only negates the reckless arrogance and addiction Azshara fell to.

But the Order of Elune, first contact with Elune, origin and development all happen there. Cenarius first meets the night elves in the surrounding forests there. Although currently in ruins it is their most holy site. IT also means everything to them.

Why should blood elves 9who already have Silvermoon) have a new capital or city there? Or Nightborne (who already have Suramar - the original home of most of the Darnassians - get that too?).

I think the Thalassian blood elves and nightborne already have alot. I'd be looking for places for the night elves and high elves who really are the original versions of the nightborne and blood elves and establishing them properly.

I hate the constant dissociation of the night elves from the good qualities of their past. Night elves hate their arrogance and the addiction that followed, they don't hate the great

Surely the best use for Nazjatar, is the restoration of Elundris (the previous name of the city before Zin'Azshari) and it be a symbol of the restoration and harmonious unity of the elves operating in al their orders.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

I'm of the opinion that Maiev (during Wolfheart, which was later dropped and she rejoined as if everything was fine without any explanation) and Fandral Staghelm shouldn't have been made antagonists and that while staying jerks and ideological opponents to Malfurion and Tyrande, they should have always remained loyal to their people and that their ruthless methods should have really been for the good of their people instead of becoming villains for their own selfish and petty reasons with making Maiev goes on a crazy crusade against Highborne and Malfurion and of Fandral betraying his people to serve Xavius and later Ragnaros.

It would have been more interesting if they stayed as political opponents, and incarnated the Kaldorei's traditionnal and ruthless sides, such as the distrust of the Highborne, High/Blood Elves and aggresive response to the Horde's incursions in their lands, with Fandral creating the Druids of the flamme as a new mean to strengthen his people and respond to the Old Gods' minions' threats and to the Horde aggression.