Revamping m+ rio system

[Empower]

15s are not the topic of discussion and do not need changing, you get top players in 15s just doing there weeklies, all the players that got shafted by class misbalance and dont play m+ this season due to this reason will be just doing there weekly 15s. getting keystone master is so easy because more often than not you have an exceptional player in the party that carries the key to in time regardless. its the exact same in 22s only the other way round. there is always someone that doesnt belong there destroying the key.

As a healer main i notice immidiately who the baddies are with there defensive usage. then its just a case of can they not fail enough to time the key? nearly always the answer is no, they always manage to do just enough to screw the key, it is so tiring joining endless keys and seeing in the first 3 minutes who is bad and just having that feeling "this guy is gonna destroy this key" 15minutes later you hate being right all the time.

Whether its getting hit by a conal and then releasing when the pack is on 5% hp so the next pack we have to 4man while the guy runs all through the dungeon, guys who do this you do not belong in high keys, its not a case of a mistake its a case of not being very good at the game, when you have ran 10.000 keys and died 3000 times it burns into your muscle memory that when you die have a quick look at the situation, is the pack nearly dead? do we have combat rez? how far is the spawn point? then within seconds make the decision based off this, not just instant release like a brand new to warcraft in shadowlands player? what are you doing in 22s? this system tells you that because you are 2500 rio you belong there. you do not, that is whats wrong with this game. new inexperienced players running a mock in 22s meaning nobody can go anywhere.

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there is a version of that, its m0

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I disagree with really good players start at 2500, 2500 is like the cap for bad players that play alot, all you need to do is time all 21s which with time and dedication spamming keys in a +1 method (all 17s > all 18s > all 19s) etc as long as you have some basic game intelligence you can time 21s,

The reason everyone is clustered around 2500 is because of all the bad players that are at there ceiling hindering everyone else. a bit like pvp in season 1 how all the new to pvp players all bottlenecked the ratings system so everyone had a 50% win rate, remember that? 1400-1600 50% win rate 1000 matches played, its the same thing happening in 2500 rio m+, the bad players (i was one of the bad pvpers btw) are making getting out of the bottleneck extremely difficult unless you are lucky to land in a party where all 5 players are good enough.

of course there are exceptions, maybe a lot of exceptions i am talking about the majority.

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yes 20s is 2400, crazy easy to achieve, thats where this system has fallen flat on its face, EVERYONE can time all 21s, and for that reason nobody/very few can time all 22s not due to being bad but due to being in parties full of people that dont know how to play well enough consistently yet.

Fair enough I don't think many push past the reward cap unless they want to sell boosts.

[Niwes]

15s are not the topic of discussion and do not need changing, you get top players in 15s just doing there weeklies, all the players that got shafted by class misbalance and dont play m+ this season due to this reason will be just doing there weekly 15s. getting keystone master is so easy because more often than not you have an exceptional player in the party that carries the key to in time regardless. its the exact same in 22s only the other way round. there is always someone that doesnt belong there destroying the key.

As a healer main i notice immidiately who the baddies are with there defensive usage. then its just a case of can they not fail enough to time the key? nearly always the answer is no, they always manage to do just enough to screw the key, it is so tiring joining endless keys and seeing in the first 3 minutes who is bad and just having that feeling "this guy is gonna destroy this key" 15minutes later you hate being right all the time.

Whether its getting hit by a conal and then releasing when the pack is on 5% hp so the next pack we have to 4man while the guy runs all through the dungeon, guys who do this you do not belong in high keys, its not a case of a mistake its a case of not being very good at the game, when you have ran 10.000 keys and died 3000 times it burns into your muscle memory that when you die have a quick look at the situation, is the pack nearly dead? do we have combat rez? how far is the spawn point? then within seconds make the decision based off this, not just instant release like a brand new to warcraft in shadowlands player? what are you doing in 22s? this system tells you that because you are 2500 rio you belong there. you do not, that is whats wrong with this game. new inexperienced players running a mock in 22s meaning nobody can go anywhere.

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there is a version of that, its m0

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I disagree with really good players start at 2500, 2500 is like the cap for bad players that play alot, all you need to do is time all 21s which with time and dedication spamming keys in a +1 method (all 17s > all 18s > all 19s) etc as long as you have some basic game intelligence you can time 21s,

The reason everyone is clustered around 2500 is because of all the bad players that are at there ceiling hindering everyone else. a bit like pvp in season 1 how all the new to pvp players all bottlenecked the ratings system so everyone had a 50% win rate, remember that? 1400-1600 50% win rate 1000 matches played, its the same thing happening in 2500 rio m+, the bad players (i was one of the bad pvpers btw) are making getting out of the bottleneck extremely difficult unless you are lucky to land in a party where all 5 players are good enough.

of course there are exceptions, maybe a lot of exceptions i am talking about the majority.

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yes 20s is 2400, crazy easy to achieve, thats where this system has fallen flat on its face, EVERYONE can time all 21s, and for that reason nobody/very few can time all 22s not due to being bad but due to being in parties full of people that dont know how to play well enough consistently yet.

yeah can totally feel you as a heal and imagine this.

what i not really got out of your text is, what you think why this is so. my thoughts here are these:

when some guy reaches 22+, how can he still be that stupid ? how is it, human wise, possible that he still can fail such things?

do we talk about boosted ppl here? or how this can happen that often? how can an army of idiots even reach the rating and gear for 22+ and doing this failures, at the same time?

what do you think, why this is the case? (serious question, because i can not imagine this very well, as a longtime mythic raid player, years ago, my experience was that this ppl not survive long in that higher regions, so therefore i ask)

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lol no ? you know why +15s are so hard ? because they are filled with people who just want to get their ksm and be done - plus they are filled with 230 people desperate for 252 weekly gear.

try liek 17s and you will see how much easier those are then 15s because htose are fileld with people interested to push so they have at least basic understanding of mechanics.

as to melee ? thats just not true just play WW monk - every single group wants to have 1

also i have very many succesfull groups in 19-20 with comps that had 2 melee

you can do dungoens liek 17-19 with stupidest comps- just as long as people who are there know what they are doing - like yesterday i did top 18 with 2 mages and my low geared DH alt. and we timed it easily and smooth . but yes it was guild group

yes, thought the same when i reached the +16 ground. i also thought most are stupid because „no clue but wanna get +15 for vault“. sadly my latest experience was that at +17 it was not better. did this week 6 +17 runs. not 1 finished. maybe i just had bad luck with that ppls. at least i assume its not just my fault, when i have most interrupt after tank, sooth/shiv nearly on cd and still being first or second (1% behind first) on dps, while being lowest or second lowest on inc dmg. i did all that dungeons fukin often and realize most stupid stuff or the failers instantly. so i asssume its not just me (while ofc i am not perfect too).

so maybe i just had bad luck… no clue… 6 +17 is not much. we will see what my experience with pugs skillwise is after 5 weeks and 50+ 17/18s.

[SaveWowSomehoww]

yeah can totally feel you as a heal and imagine this.

what i not really got out of your text is, what you think why this is so. my thoughts here are these:

when some guy reaches 22+, how can he still be that stupid ? how is it, human wise, possible that he still can fail such things?

I dont think its a case of how is the guy that stupid, i think its a case of the guy didnt learn yet. an issue caused by blizzard spoonfeeding everyone up to 21 / 22 keys where they are having questions asked and they dont know the answer yet. this has created the bottleneck that is currently in the game where most players are stuck on or around 2400-2600

As for the reason i think its quite simple why, 22 seems to be the level where the unseen things start becoming more important, lack of defensive usage starts stretching the healers, fights last for a tiny bit long so the healers mana might get stretched to the point of oom, these small details really do make a difference.

The higher you go the less forgiving it is to everything from low dps to interupts to mechanics, i believe 22 is the point where people need to start bringing a little more than there own weight. which is why so many people fall short, what was good enough for 20 (free) is no longer enough for 22 and by not bringing your own weight you ask for more from the other members of the party which stretches it in other ways too, if you bring low dps your asking the other dps/tank/heal to bring the damage needed extra that you lack.

Blizzard will bring something in that will push ppl up the ladder, a buff or a nerf, nobody will stop to think hang on thats why we moved from 22s to 24s and not because actually we learned the game.

Tanks for example in season 1 got a 10% damage reduction buff flat, for no reason at all! 20% versa just handed to every tank that plays the game. why? its unheard of to flatly buff so many players for no reason other than to try and make the content "alt friendly" its just daft.

[Soon-TM]

OP = terribly convoluted solutions for a nonexistent problem.

[kamuimac]

yeah can totally feel you as a heal and imagine this.

what i not really got out of your text is, what you think why this is so. my thoughts here are these:

when some guy reaches 22+, how can he still be that stupid ? how is it, human wise, possible that he still can fail such things?

do we talk about boosted ppl here? or how this can happen that often? how can an army of idiots even reach the rating and gear for 22+ and doing this failures, at the same time?

what do you think, why this is the case? (serious question, because i can not imagine this very well, as a longtime mythic raid player, years ago, my experience was that this ppl not survive long in that higher regions, so therefore i ask)

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yes, thought the same when i reached the +16 ground. i also thought most are stupid because „no clue but wanna get +15 for vault“. sadly my latest experience was that at +17 it was not better. did this week 6 +17 runs. not 1 finished. maybe i just had bad luck with that ppls. at least i assume its not just my fault, when i have most interrupt after tank, sooth/shiv nearly on cd and still being first or second (1% behind first) on dps, while being lowest or second lowest on inc dmg. i did all that dungeons fukin often and realize most stupid stuff or the failers instantly. so i asssume its not just me (while ofc i am not perfect too).

so maybe i just had bad luck… no clue… 6 +17 is not much. we will see what my experience with pugs skillwise is after 5 weeks and 50+ 17/18s.

thats because toxic io is inherently flawed

as its not real MMR - it just count succesfull runs - it doesnt count losses or abandoned games.

that why in order to "succed" in m+ you just need to run them enough times to evnetually get that 1 group capable of carrying you. ofc you may fail even 99% of times in 20/21 but eventually you will get that 1 group and get carried.

the same is in lower dungeons with much higher succesfull rate for carry the lower you get.

lately when joinging groups for +20s i noticed a lot of people who have like 0 compelted 20s but like 100+ completed 15s. when most "pushers" start to push 20s when they have like 30-50 completed +15s on that particular toons (thats just my rough estimation how many runs it wil ltake you to moderately gear up while doing like 4 dungeons a week on alts )

imagine doing 100 + runs just to climb to 19s. jezus. im a really average player with below mechanical skills and i got there in 30 runs. how bad they have to be to take them 100 runs ?

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I dont think its a case of how is the guy that stupid, i think its a case of the guy didnt learn yet. an issue caused by blizzard spoonfeeding everyone up to 21 / 22 keys where they are having questions asked and they dont know the answer yet. this has created the bottleneck that is currently in the game where most players are stuck on or around 2400-2600

As for the reason i think its quite simple why, 22 seems to be the level where the unseen things start becoming more important, lack of defensive usage starts stretching the healers, fights last for a tiny bit long so the healers mana might get stretched to the point of oom, these small details really do make a difference.

The higher you go the less forgiving it is to everything from low dps to interupts to mechanics, i believe 22 is the point where people need to start bringing a little more than there own weight. which is why so many people fall short, what was good enough for 20 (free) is no longer enough for 22 and by not bringing your own weight you ask for more from the other members of the party which stretches it in other ways too, if you bring low dps your asking the other dps/tank/heal to bring the damage needed extra that you lack.

Blizzard will bring something in that will push ppl up the ladder, a buff or a nerf, nobody will stop to think hang on thats why we moved from 22s to 24s and not because actually we learned the game.

Tanks for example in season 1 got a 10% damage reduction buff flat, for no reason at all! 20% versa just handed to every tank that plays the game. why? its unheard of to flatly buff so many players for no reason other than to try and make the content "alt friendly" its just daft.

the reason why those things happen in 20-22 is because thats the level when "aoe goes brrr" "st burst goes brr " cannot carry groups anymore. people need to interupt people need to dispel people need to sothe on spot or people will get 1 shot, people need defensives because healer cannot keep up group without them .

with 250 gear you can negate 90% of mechanics in liek 18/19 - but higher gear just cannot carry you anymore because dungeons outscale it .

another reason for failuers is because on this level more and more people try to replicate mdi pulls and fail horribly in uncordinated pug groups.

just some examples from hoa since i did it for teleport this weekend on 1 char

a)mdi pulls of whole left side (havent seen a single one succed in pug ye people keep trying )
b)people pulling trash pack on top of first boss and wiping because tank/melee panic and forget about cleave on mobs when avoidign puddles
c)pull of trash to 3rd boss (this actually succeded :P )

while my comemnt is always - "just why " - all you had to do is just do normal usual route while doing enough dps and executing stuff

the moment i found such group that didnt do mdi pulls we completed it.

and ye thats just my personal complaining

imo those teleports shoudl be on +10 not on +20 - this way peopel who have no business being in +20 wouldnt be there.

[Th3Scourge]

Just make it less punishing for mistakes. Examples of this could be

maintain the key level if you do not time. The vendor in oribos allows you to drop the key level anyway.
Account-wide ksm for item upgrades so players are less inclined to leave if they aren't going to improve their score to upgrade gear.
Add a valor/badges vendor to purchase gear with valor/badges earned from the run. Run should reward the same valor if you time or fail (not sure what it does now)
M+ gear upgradable to mythic-raid level.

[FFLover]

There are no lengths elitists won't go to separate the playerbase even more... There are already people filtering applicants based on Ilevel, Tyrranical score, Fortified score, proper covenant, talents, meta composition and you want to add another layer, that will block people from getting into groups based on a criterion, that can't realistically be objective? If you're giving out score for interrupts, take into account that most of the groups have 2-4 interrupts. If you're not the first one to interrupt, then you're a bad player? Okay...

Applying this approach only makes the whole system suck for everyone with exception of 1% of players, whom usually don't play with pugs anyway. Current situation isn't ideal, timed runs come with a lot of problems, but suggestions like these come exclusively from elitist players, who want to ruin everyone's game experience, just so they can find dungeon buddies for +22 easier..

[Spiffums]

Just remove the dog ass system that keys deplete upon failure and stop punishing people for mistakes so heavily.

Give 100% of the loot regardless of completion speed, leave the key on the level it was.

Give more loot if intime and increase the key level.

Remove all M+ related APIs.

There, m+ toxicity solved in an instant.

Nope! You've still got the give more loot if intime and anyone not pumping out what the group leader thinks is "enough dps" will get dropped and they'd just restart the key with someone else. If anything it would add even more toxicity to M+ with the rise of "baddies need to be kicked" in Keys.

[Tsarez]

Nope! You've still got the give more loot if intime and anyone not pumping out what the group leader thinks is "enough dps" will get dropped and they'd just restart the key with someone else. If anything it would add even more toxicity to M+ with the rise of "baddies need to be kicked" in Keys.

No it wouldn't and you're insane for thinking it. Everything points completely against what you just said.

[erifwodahs]

Remove all M+ related APIs.

There, m+ toxicity solved in an instant.

pugging is ruined and getting into the keys is way harder

[Empower]

Blizzard need to accommodate the elitests more than anything right now because its the elitests, the old school players, the players with 10+ year long subscriptions that are walking out the door. the casuals and socials dont give a damn, games great to them and always will be.

Imagine as a casual if elitests come down and started destroying your +5 +10 keys? no really, stop and imagine it, would you be happy for this? if it was a common theme in every key you joined for an elitest to be in there doing something dumb that destroyed the key?

would you sustain your friendly / accepting demeanour on the 50th time it happened in a row? doubtful. or would you actually say you know what, i dont have time for this.......... and we land on the point of why wow is bleeding subs so bad.

And your comment about 22s just shows your lack of understanding of the game, if elitest players can find "dungeon buddies for 22s" heres the thing, they no longer are stuck at 22s, they are moving up into 23s 24s 25s 26s to there correct level.

A system where everyone is fit into the ladder / system with a clear skill rating would not be a bad thing at all, lower keys would be more accepting, sure people can ask for 5* 5* 2800 rio in 19s but realistically they arent going to find the players....ever. so they would have to lower there expectation.

It would also give players the power to invite people based on star rating over rio, i personally would invite a 5* 5* player with low rio over a 3* 3* player with high rio ALLLLL day long. everyone tells themselves they are good enough and arent invited due to elitism in rio? whats wrong with a system that proves there actual m+ ability?

I mean I have a rather high elo and eventually I just pug some random 15 for a weekly...not everyone who can push does. Once I got my teleports I stopped.

[Tsarez]

pugging is ruined and getting into the keys is way harder

Nothing is ruined. You only think that because you're punished like a dumb monkey by blizzard for failing in their game. If you remove the punishment and instead work more prominently with incentives instead you're reducing toxicity and making group forming easier.

Progress tracker and dick measurement tools like rIO serve nothing else but to again cause more unhealthy competition within the community.

A depleted key gives dogshit loot, reduces your key and blemishes your rIO. How people like to have such a system in place I just cannot wrap my head around.

Example solution:

* Keys don't deplete, instead you can manually reduce the level if you chose to do so
* Baseline item quantity set to 2 epics
* 1 extra item if you finish intime, plus key is upgraded
* 1 extra item each time a player is the the group who did not complete that key level yet intime, and you are intime (to avoid too much item inflation, limit that one to 1)
* 1 extra item above a certain key level threshold for elite players
* Reduce item level disparity between low keys and high keys. Incentivize stronger via cosmetics and maybe mount drops for example so that normal players don't feel such a strong need to reach elite player domains
* Add the option to have multiple keys where you can have some sort of energy storage to level up a key without necessarily having to intime a dungeon
* Ban the first person to leave a running key for 1 hour from participating in a new M+ run. Add a "disband group" voting system to abandon a run if needed without punishment.


I am by no means a game designer but god damn it this system sounds so much more like you could actually have fun in M+ and even help players of lower skill because you're incentivized and you know it won't hurt you.

[keyone01]

<perfectly reasonable score> is extremly low .io though

really good players start around <little less than my score>

Any numeric metric is busted anyway due to boosting.

[fatgunn]

I dont think its a case of how is the guy that stupid, i think its a case of the guy didnt learn yet. an issue caused by blizzard spoonfeeding everyone up to 21 / 22 keys where they are having questions asked and they dont know the answer yet. this has created the bottleneck that is currently in the game where most players are stuck on or around 2400-2600

This section here is just all kinds of wrong. The bottleneck for most people is down at +15s or even lower. The amount of people doing +20s or higher is miniscule. If you are at that level and are constantly running into bad players you just need to vet your pugs better, not add entirely new metrics to the ratings.

[Jastall]

This section here is just all kinds of wrong. The bottleneck for most people is down at +15s or even lower. The amount of people doing +20s or higher is miniscule. If you are at that level and are constantly running into bad players you just need to vet your pugs better, not add entirely new metrics to the ratings.

Don't forget that to some people "bad players" = "anyone who doesn't play exactly like me, and/or has made one single mistake in their entire lives".

Anyone thinking "most" players are at around 2400 score is obviously living in lalaland rather than reality anyway, it's like saying most raiders are 9/10M or most basketball players are in the NBA.

[Puri]

What the ingame tool needs is to (additionally) display the highest m+ score on his account. All those alts with ~1000 rating because they simply do one m+ per week, and preferrably an easy one and/or one where still a needed item drop really have a hard time getting invited, even if their ilevel is more than enough.
But there is no way to easily tell if they really lack that experience, or if it's just an alt.

[Echo of Soul]

I wish that Blizzard would stop catering to these elitist assholes, it's ruining the game.

Remove rio, remove timers from dungeons, remove affixes and we'll have a lot less toxicity.

[Twdft]

I wish that Blizzard would stop catering to these elitist assholes, it's ruining the game.

Remove rio, remove timers from dungeons, remove affixes and we'll have a lot less toxicity.

All of that is literally in the game already.

[Echo of Soul]

All of that is literally in the game already.

Oh really? When the hell did that happen? Last time I played at the start of Shadowlands m+ still had timers and affixes.

[pioudsfsd]

Oh really? When the hell did that happen? Last time I played at the start of Shadowlands m+ still had timers and affixes.

Its called a Mythic Dungeon you retarded piece of shit