Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Dhrizzle]

FIFA 2009 UT says hi. Pretty universally accepted as pay to win. Not only 2 years before RIFT, but doing exactly what you say isnt considered p2w /shrug

I never played it, what's the actual mechanic?

[Raelbo]

Can i buy in game items with real money using an official system?

Yes

What is the definition of pay to win?

Pay 2 win means that if you want to win you have to pay. Conversely, if you don't pay, you cannot realistically hope to win.

Does your question adequately test that definition? Not in the slightest.

Many games fit this description. WoW is not one of them.

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Wow is pay 2 win now, i dont understand why there is a 120 page discussion about this?

Because it isn't pay 2 win, and trying to explain this to people who think it is, is remarkably difficult.

[rhorle]

The wow token is nothing else than p2w, sanctioned by Blizzard. Theres no way around it. With the wow token you can get titles, mounts, achivments, gear. You can suck donkeykongballs and still obtain anything considered worthwhile and cool in game, by using your own money. Ofc its not directly buying with real money, the token is there to cludder it.

What you described is a micro transaction and not pay to win. If it was pay to win then the game would have been pay to win since WotLK when they introduced the Celestial Steed. But most of these claims of pay to win only center around the token going forward. So mounts, titles, achievements, and what not don't factor into it.

[crusadernero]

What you described is a micro transaction and not pay to win. If it was pay to win then the game would have been pay to win since WotLK when they introduced the Celestial Steed. But most of these claims of pay to win only center around the token going forward. So mounts, titles, achievements, and what not don't factor into it.

I would dare say that getting mounts, titles, achivments and high level gear from clearing content is what MMORPGs is all about. In wow, you can get all of this by paying for it. Legally, in game. In seconds.

So yeah, it is p2w.

Your parameter of "im doing high dps" means nothing when anyone can clear, see and obtain anything you have worked for. With bought gold, legally, in game.

Im a rather average wow player and would never be able to compete at high dps numbers or clear difficult content. But its NP, I can just get boosted and get the same stuff you do. While sucking.

p2w.

[rhorle]

I would dare say that getting mounts, titles, achivments and high level gear from clearing content is what MMORPGs is all about. In wow, you can get all of this by paying for it. Legally, in game. In seconds.

Except it doesn't happen in seconds. You get gold in seconds. The titles, mounts, achievements, high level gear, and what now all takes time. It takes time for those groups to gear up enough to offer the boosts. It isn't pay to win. Buying gold is a micro transaction.

I didn't have a parameter of high dps. You are confusing another poster's argument with what I said. Anyone can always clear, see, and obtain what you have worked for. That isn't a thing that just got introduced with the Token. You are using the same argument people used back in the day when epic gear was easy to obtain. You were never unique. You were never special. Very few rewards in WoW are locked out and special/unique.

If you are an average player that can't compete or clear difficult content then those problems would still exist without the boost right? It shows it is more about jealousy or envy then it being pay to win.

[Raelbo]

The wow token is nothing else than p2w, sanctioned by Blizzard. Theres no way around it.

Of course there is...

With the wow token you can get titles, mounts, achivments, gear. You can suck donkeykongballs and still obtain anything considered worthwhile and cool in game, by using your own money.

Essentially yes, within limits, but that is not the definition of p2w.

p2w is all about needing to spend money to obtain those things, or conversely, being unable to obtain them without spending money.

Ofc its not directly buying with real money, the token is there to cludder it.

You're trying to handwave away a very significant point here: That you're not buying anything from the game with real money.

The token doesn't "cludder" anything. It is a means of facilitating a transaction between two players. When you buy a token you aren't buying any of the things you mention above. You are simply paying another player to make some gold for you. Some people then use that gold to get other players to help them obtain the other things on that list.

A big part of what makes the token not p2w is this very important fact that other players are the ones helping you "win", not the game itself. To better understand this distinction: In a p2w game, your money buys you the ability to achieve those things yourself, better than another player could.

[Lochton]

Can i buy in game items with real money using an official system?

Yes

Technically, no. Hence a tedious discussion of the term "indirect P2W" further back in the thread.

You do not buy gold from Blizzard, nor items of power/progression, nor power-ups and buffs, or even secret DLCs.

[Raelbo]

I would dare say that getting mounts, titles, achivments and high level gear from clearing content is what MMORPGs is all about. In wow, you can get all of this by paying for it. Legally, in game. In seconds.

So yeah, it is p2w.

As I said above, that is not p2w at all.

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Technically, no. Hence a tedious discussion of the term "indirect P2W" further back in the thread.

It's not even "indirect P2W".

It's simply getting other players to help you by giving them something of value in return. That is all.

[Lochton]

It's not even "indirect P2W".

It's simply getting other players to help you by giving them something of value in return. That is all.

Someone started the "indirect" term to cover their argument of it being P2W.

[BattleHammer]

Can 1 out of 2 equally skilled players get an advantage by using money? Yes, hence it's P2W (sadly). The rest are technicalities to try and hide the facts.

[rhorle]

Can 1 out of 2 equally skilled players get an advantage by using money? Yes, hence it's P2W (sadly). The rest are technicalities to try and hide the facts.

Those technicalities don't hide the facts they are the facts. Equally skilled players can also get an advantage by having friends that carry them for free. Gold opens up possibilities but that doesn't make buying gold paying to win. It just makes it a micro transaction.

[BattleHammer]

Those technicalities don't hide the facts they are the facts. Equally skilled players can also get an advantage by having friends that carry them for free. Gold opens up possibilities but that doesn't make buying gold paying to win. It just makes it a micro transaction.

You get an advantage, hence P2W. You can say there's different "levels" of P2W but it is P2W.

[Raelbo]

Can 1 out of 2 equally skilled players get an advantage by using money? Yes, hence it's P2W (sadly). The rest are technicalities to try and hide the facts.

Consider this: Can 1 of 2 equally skilled players get an advantage by getting other players to help them to grind for gold? Because that is all that the token is facilitating.

The "facts" you're referring are actually that WoW is an MMO game in which other people can, and often are even required to help you achieve things. The fact that people can paid to get them to do this is just part of being an MMO and does not make it P2W - even if there are some similarities to a P2W game (in which you pay to have the game to give you some sort of help)

[Ealyssa]

Pay 2 win means that if you want to win you have to pay.

Nope. P2W is quite clear. It's when you can buy top tier gear/power directly in a shop for real money instead of actually playing the game/doing the content rewarding said gear/power.

But yes, wow isn't P2W. Never was, and hopefully never will.

[Daymanmb]

Consider this: Can 1 of 2 equally skilled players get an advantage by getting other players to help them to grind for gold? Because that is all that the token is facilitating.

Right, youre able to buy your way into circumventing the intent of the game. Its an MMO, youre supposed to play with friends..

[BattleHammer]

There's a lot of games that rely on that same concept: "It's not P2W you can get it if you grind enough"

Can you boost a character? Yes
Can you buy a mount with special characteristics? Yes (tbc mount for example)
Can you buy gold which in turn let's you access faster/better gear, consumables, progression? Yes

The wow token makes this stuff possible. The game ofc it's not the worst P2W case you can see (like FIFA UT or like the many many mobile games), but has P2W mechanics.

[rhorle]

You get an advantage, hence P2W. You can say there's different "levels" of P2W but it is P2W.

Buying the gold doesn't give you the advantage though. It only makes it possible. The same as if you gained the gold through any in-game activity. There are different levels of pay to win but this isn't even pay to win. The level boost is an example of pay to win that is acceptable/minor so it is "a different level" then if you could directly buy power.

[BattleHammer]

Buying the gold doesn't give you the advantage though. It only makes it possible. The same as if you gained the gold through any in-game activity. There are different levels of pay to win but this isn't even pay to win. The level boost is an example of pay to win that is acceptable/minor so it is "a different level" then if you could directly buy power.

So its's P2W but at the same time it isn't?

By buying gold you can buy "player driven services". Many game developers try to hide under the banner of "it's only a timeskip", but you're enabling P2W mechanics.

Why was gallywix-method stuff so controversial then?

[rhorle]

So its's P2W but at the same time it isn't?

The level boost is not bought with gold. It requires battle.net balance. It is entirely different from the token. Can you convert gold to battle.net balance? Yes. That doesn't make gold pay to win anymore then subscribing to the game is pay to win.

Gallywix was controversial because they were skipping the token and doing direct cash trades. It wasn't an issue because they were selling carries/boosts but because of the against EULA RMT.

[BattleHammer]

The level boost is not bought with gold. It requires battle.net balance. It is entirely different from the token. Can you convert gold to battle.net balance? Yes. That doesn't make gold pay to win anymore then subscribing to the game is pay to win.

Gallywix was controversial because they were skipping the token and doing direct cash trades. It wasn't an issue because they were selling carries/boosts but because of the against EULA RMT.

Hence a boost is P2W.

I know RMT goes against the EULA, but what's behind that is that they were getting(or giving) a small advantage through gold transactions, which (once again) can be bought with real money.

Is the game P2W? Yes, not in a big (mobile game) kinda way but it is.

Is it that terrible? that's debatable, it has generated some issues, but also some "benefits".