Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[OwenBurton]

Varian's words: "If your Horde fails to uphold honor, as Garrosh did, we will end you" - never came to fruition.

Well, Varian also said something about cleansing Gilneas and containing Sylvanas, but he took no action regarding either. Either he forgot, or Blizzard did. I never understood why Varian never attacked the Undercity between the events of Wrath of the Lich King and Legion, with the Forsaken such an overwhelmingly powerful and chaotic force in the Eastern Kingdoms? Sylvanas was afraid that Varian would attack her people - that was why she argued against Garrosh so strongly. But her fears were in the end for naught, or so it seems.

"I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked." (Battle for the Undercity)

"The Alliance may indeed not send reinforcements. Not at once, at least. They will turn and vent their wrath instead upon those of us in the Eastern Kingdoms - my people and the sin'dorei. Varian will march on my borders and destroy us!" (Sylvanas in Tides of War)

"Now, to the work of winning the peace. I would like to station a garrison near Theramore. We need to investigate cleansing the plague from Gilnean lands so they can rebuild. We must contain Sylvanas. From here on forward, the Alliance will be proactive. Never again can there be another the likes of Hellscream." (Varian Wrynn at the end of the Siege of Orgrimmar.)

[Soon-TM]

Faction wars are over

For the time being. I'm sure that by 11.0, 12.0 at most, Blizzard will make up some dumb, contrived as all %$#& "reason" to drop the villain bat on the Horde. Third time is the charm, isn't it?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

For the War of Thorns? Yeah. No matter how Sylvanas manipulated the rest of the Horde leaders, they ended up going along with what was simply an unprovoked preemptive strike.

As for how meaningful the reparations should be, I don't think there's anyone to enforce something bigger than a simply non aggression treaty, at most, sovereign borders should be decided and places like Ashenvale acknowledged to both sides as NE territory.

But beyond that, hard to see any other material reparations; at the end of the day what both factions need is peace and leave each other alone for a while. It would be interesting to see Horde and Alliance come together to officially dictate a ceasing of hostilities and the parameters of it, what zones would remain "contested" and what zones would belong to each faction to the point the mere presence of the other faction would be considering trespassing and made them fair game for retaliation, with said faction disavowing them.

[VladlTutushkin]

For the War of Thorns? Yeah. No matter how Sylvanas manipulated the rest of the Horde leaders, they ended up going along with what was simply an unprovoked preemptive strike.

As for how meaningful the reparations should be, I don't think there's anyone to enforce something bigger than a simply non aggression treaty, at most, sovereign borders should be decided and places like Ashenvale acknowledged to both sides as NE territory.

But beyond that, hard to see any other material reparations; at the end of the day what both factions need is peace and leave each other alone for a while. It would be interesting to see Horde and Alliance come together to officially dictate a ceasing of hostilities and the parameters of it, what zones would remain "contested" and what zones would belong to each faction to the point the mere presence of the other faction would be considering trespassing and made them fair game for retaliation, with said faction disavowing them.

Would be interesting to see Alliance do the “We may die killing you, but we will fight to the last man.” Move with the clause that goblins, blood elves , tauren of all kinds and nightborne are free to abandon the war and have their rights not only guaranteed but even reinforced.

Like goblins being offered any land that belonged to the Horde on Kalimdor for free to use as they like.

Or using Army of the Light to cleanse the Ghostlands and entirely wipe the Scourge there.

And so on. Essentially leave only orcs and forsaken out of the “bail with preference and extras” deal and see how long Horde will last.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Would be interesting to see Alliance do the “We may die killing you, but we will fight to the last man.” Move with the clause that goblins, blood elves , tauren of all kinds and nightborne are free to abandon the war and have their rights not only guaranteed but even reinforced.

Like goblins being offered any land that belonged to the Horde on Kalimdor for free to use as they like.

Or using Army of the Light to cleanse the Ghostlands and entirely wipe the Scourge there.

And so on. Essentially leave only orcs and forsaken out of the “bail with preference and extras” deal and see how long Horde will last.

I mean any solution that threatens to splinter the factions doesn't seem very plausible from an out of universe perspective. You really can't alter the power struggle on such a level because it's also a gameplay conceit, you can only really reinforce the continued existence of the conflict at most as a cold war.

Besides, I don't thiink any of the horde races that you mention would take such a deal; the whole point of the Horde is mutual cooperation -for good or ill- their whole point is to offer assistance to each other; safety in numbers. It's only their sticking together that makes them a power to rival the alliance, the moment the horde disbands, it looses any collective bargaining power and would lose any assured mutual aid, because if anything were to happen to them, it would not be the alliance problems.

What if orcs and goblins go to war in Aszhara then? Would the Alliance sacrifice their own troops to support either side, or would it just be best to let them fight each other? What if someone in the alliance then decides to encroach in any other territory since the Horde doesn't exist to back them up? Would the alliance really police itself? Would the alliance act against their own people that break the treaties?

As much as the enforcing of the faction conflict is overdone, there IS reason for the factions to exist; they counter each other so neither has hegemony over Azeroth. That's why I think a cold war scenario where the faction war is pushed to the back, but not dismissed or dismantled would make the most sense.

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean any solution that threatens to splinter the factions doesn't seem very plausible from an out of universe perspective. You really can't alter the power struggle on such a level because it's also a gameplay conceit, you can only really reinforce the continued existence of the conflict at most as a cold war.

Besides, I don't thiink any of the horde races that you mention would take such a deal; the whole point of the Horde is mutual cooperation -for good or ill- their whole point is to offer assistance to each other; safety in numbers. It's only their sticking together that makes them a power to rival the alliance, the moment the horde disbands, it looses any collective bargaining power and would lose any assured mutual aid, because if anything were to happen to them, it would not be the alliance problems.

What if orcs and goblins go to war in Aszhara then? Would the Alliance sacrifice their own troops to support either side, or would it just be best to let them fight each other? What if someone in the alliance then decides to encroach in any other territory since the Horde doesn't exist to back them up? Would the alliance really police itself? Would the alliance act against their own people that break the treaties?

As much as the enforcing of the faction conflict is overdone, there IS reason for the factions to exist; they counter each other so neither has hegemony over Azeroth. That's why I think a cold war scenario where the faction war is pushed to the back, but not dismissed or dismantled would make the most sense.

Cold War option passed with BfA. Stakes are too high and Horde clearly shown that they will rise up into genocidal rampage at the word of a vaguely inspirational demagogue.

Blizz shat the pants hardcore with BfA and its insane hatred and war crimes ramp up.

Now its either no factions through “one peace to last forever” or massacre until there is no more factions.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Cold War option passed with BfA. Stakes are too high and Horde clearly shown that they will rise up into genocidal rampage at the word of a vaguely inspirational demagogue.

Blizz shat the pants hardcore with BfA and its insane hatred and war crimes ramp up.

Now its either no factions through “one peace to last forever” or massacre until there is no more factions.

Honestly I just don't see Blizzard going for either of those. There's no way they are going to abolish the faction system when so much of the identity of the game is build around it. They might lessen the restrictions and allow cross faction play, but they aren't going to get rid of one or both factions during WoW's lifespan.

[Dastreus]

They ultimately follow through with their leaders' plans. Like the Teldrassil thing. "Oh some joined Saurfang" yeah and yet, some of even those probably went through with it because warchief said to. So the answer is yes. Of course, the writing for WoW is dogshit-tier these days, so I expect nothing.

[Aresk]

Kirin Tor ping pong in and out of alliance every exp, Kirin Tor are one of original alliance who join and leave as they please, they can't be compared to all other factions
Argent Dawn is literally created to not be alliance (humans) favored faction, to allow both factions to join, they are a sub-faction of Scarlet Crusade who left them when they saw how they focus more on purity of just humans instead of actually saving ppl (when Scarlet Crusade started to get corrupted)
wow lore is clear that while Scarlet Crusade had their problems and corrupting starting to surface, they were alliance faction in classic era, they were hostile in game purely for gameplay purpose, and their story is over now which actually is one of good stories of how fanatic and blind zealous leads to your doom and destruction
Wildhammer are alliance, never left it, they just hate other dwarfs, before mighty king chin forced his view over dwarfs in a joke of a political move

1- then by that logic Arthas is alliance and scourge is a subfaction of alliance, Arthas was prince/king of Lordearon and most of scourge forces are reanimated citizens of Lordearon and Quel'thalas, and since scourge was ranked at one time the biggest evil and threat of azeroth that makes alliance pure evil, yeah playable alliance is enemy of scourge but hey according to ur logic (making actual enemy of playable horde, still horde!) then actually enemy of alliance is alliance
and if u say that Arthas broke of alliance and started this faction then if u missed it Thrall also broke of old horde (Rend and Maim were still leading blackrock clan during that time) and started his new horde and left the entire continent to new one
2-there is in lore many ppl who complained about Garrosh and got beaten, yeah blizz made a lot of lore outside of game for better or worse, specially about introducing blackrock orcs to Kor'kon ranks
3- That's first time ever i see alliance actually consider them guilty for trying to wipe out blood elves, in case u missed it lorewise alliance don't think they did any mistake here (or in the even literally called Purge of Dalaran) or trying to wipe out all other horde races for no reason (darkspear trolls), so don't compare what horde consider wrong and guilty with alliance actions
Alliance never pledge guilty trying and/or successfully genocide weaker races, in fact they are proud of that (like using name Trollbane), horde on other hand don't celebrate killing Draenei even if literally destruction of their entire planet is Draenei fault
4- Not according to blizzard, they aren't a major faction, no one alliance or horde consider it wrong to kill them, if u want to use something at least use something in-game someone even consider it, beside Quil'boars and Centaurs no one see killing them wrong at any faction!
They have primitive civilization like Murlocs and Gnolls, no one consider Stormwind great war against Gnolls wrong or evil, if anything it is viewed more as a joke how they underestimated Gnolls so much until Gnolls became actual threat
No one in alliance or horde consider killing murloc hub evil or act of genocide, heck no horde blame alliance for their active 'genocide' against kobolds
5- in case u missed i was talking lore, and i was really clear, Grimtotem started wow as horde, at cata joined alliance, now back to horde, pre-cata lorewise they won't attack horde, and their inn attack in Theramore is considered a horde wrong
Doomhammer abandoned old horde, if u saying Thrall is Doomhammer successor, successor of what? old horde? Doomhammer himself abandoned it and started a new actual clean anti-demon one, so horde trace back to someone who on purpose abandoned old rank is even bigger proof that they cut their ties with old one


And lastly seriously just read wowpedia and check Troll civilization, or founding of human nations for that matter, we have no numbers, but we do have (a lot in fact) stories about how they literally founded themselves by taking troll lands and expanding on them, and the more human grew, the more trolls they killed until they destroyed and shattered troll empire forever

My logic says Thrall received the title of Warchief from the previous one, rallied nearly all the remaining orc clans, and took control of them, and thus the title of Warchief of the Horde continues from Blackhand through Sylvanas in one continuous chain. The orcs accepted Thrall as their Warchief, with exception of the Dark Horde and Fel Horde. According to your logic, the Horde title went to Rend and Maim's Dark Horde because they are hostile toward the orcs under Thrall despite being part of the Horde under Doomhammer. By that logic, Arthas and the Scourge are Alliance, because Arthas was part of the Alliance, then later was hostile toward them, indicating that for some reason, his faction is now the Alliance instead of the preexisting leadership that fought against him. I don't understand how you can say Rend and Maim seized control of the Horde, particularly given how insignificant of a role they play within the greater orc history and the fact that Doomhammer kept the title of Warchief up until his death in breaking the orcs out of the internment camps.

As for the human kingdoms, everything I've read says the vrykul brought them to Lordaeron and they settled there. Nothing mentions the taking of troll lands. Their participation in the troll wars was not for land but for the ability to learn magic from the elves, who were the ones with the territorial dispute. I've seen no mention of Arathor taking land from trolls, only discussion of the high elves doing so. The only conflict I can find is the Gurubashi War, which was over the territory bordering Stranglethorn (namely southern Duskwood and Westfall); not even the founding of Stormwind involved the taking of troll lands, just its later expansion. If I've missed some other event, please let me know.

Regardless, based on the above, killing the Gurubashi and Amani trolls apparently shouldn't matter, since they're "not a major faction" and "no one alliance or horde consider it wrong to kill them" given both sides have raided their lands, and the Horde has had quests to kill them as recently as BfA. Every comment you make regarding centaur and quillboar can be extended to those troll tribes in current day. While you could argue that the Amani and other forest trolls were a major faction in WC2, they clearly aren't now, and the Gurubashi never were.

[Grazrug]

Of course they should. Once Jaina has to answer for the purge of Dalaran and the death of Rastakhan. This war criminal is a danger to world peace and should be executed.

[VladlTutushkin]

Of course they should. Once Jaina has to answer for the purge of Dalaran and the death of Rastakhan. This war criminal is a danger to world peace and should be executed.

Oh, so you willing to trade Jaina for the whole Horde? Good job Erevien! You again cornered yourself.

[Darth-Piekus]

Oh, so you willing to trade Jaina for the whole Horde? Good job Erevien! You again cornered yourself.

Did he really spew another BS again? Jaina threat to world peace? The Horde helped both Garrosh and Sylvannas obtain all the nessesary tools to do more damage to Azeroth than all of past villains. Their actions lead to another timeline being affected, sped up the Legion's arrival, helped Nzoth be freed and Zovaal to be fully restored again.

The moment Jaina does all that he will be right. Until that happens I don't think he should have the write to even write on this forum and it is too bad that there aren't actual consequences to what people say on this forum.

[Grazrug]

Oh, so you willing to trade Jaina for the whole Horde? Good job Erevien! You again cornered yourself.

It will be only fair if the alliance is on the recieving end for once. You will lose all your leaders to Horde hands and when it happens I will laugh about all of you. Alliance vermin. You make me sick.

[Coolface330]

I would not support any further wars between the Horde and Alliance. It's overdone and stupid at this point. Give us some actual, meaningful peace for once.

And for people saying, "bUt ItS wArCraFT", the war doesn't have to be between the Horde and Alliance. There are, y'know, other groups out there. Lots of 'em, in fact.

That was always the weakest PR CopOut ever to never allow communication between 2 sides. "It's WARCraft." I didn't know, everything in WoW is Literal to the T. Or is it just this one incident?

EverQuest had PvE servers where people can talk. Or PvP servers for the junkies that wanna fight all the time.

Then they act like Call of Duty has no open communcation. League of Legends has no open communication. "Completely impossible."

Lies get boring~

[TheVaryag]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

Rather than bad writing?

Blizzard made the "Leaders" cartoonishly bad, so much so It gave them the excuse to make a Horde COUNCIL...of democraticly elected representatives something something imagine that monty python scene with the peasent and king Arthur talking about whose castle Is that...Instead of just working what a Warchief really IS.

Meanwhile, Stormwind still has a Heredetory Monarchy where a literal 17 year old child took over leadership of not Stormwind but the ENTIRITY of the Alliance as High King, which is apparently also Heredetory and nobody in the Alliance seemed to care about that fact?

[sam86]

My logic

-I think that summarize it best
Official lore says wc2 horde never ended, in fact it is supposed to still exist (not all of its members joined Garrosh)
Doomhammer abandoned horde, Thrall started the new horde, Doomhammer didn't lead since he left his position, it was Thrall the one who gathered and formed the current (new) playable faction horde, and he took symbol of leadership (doomhammer and armor) from the ex-leader of wc2 horde
I don't really get why u making it that hard, specially since already in-game it is clear that wc2 horde still exist, is evil and also not a big threat anymore
- u searched the history of TROLLBANE, and didn't find him being the bane of trolls -.- ? what about all quests in Arathi Highlands horde side in classic at least?
- It does matter because 1- trolls actually have empires and civilizations and even representation in both factions (also alliance side 'diplomacy' is kill them on sight and one surprise kidnap them for no reason or sense)
2- u forgot that many troll tribes did join horde due to alliance actions so why ignore them, horde IS talking about alliance injustice towards them, it is why they allowed them to join horde in first place! to better protect against alliance favorite hobby of genocide weaker races

- again why exactly u defending Gnolls and Kobolds etc? where exactly did alliance and/or horde ever blamed other faction for killing minor actual evil races? can u use an example that at least alliance think is wrong? Or are u viewing it from celestial pov, and in that case Algalon don't view us anything but ants and he was planning to wipe us without even second thought, if not for adventurers stopping him

I would not support any further wars between the Horde and Alliance. It's overdone and stupid at this point. Give us some actual, meaningful peace for once.

And for people saying, "bUt ItS wArCraFT", the war doesn't have to be between the Horde and Alliance. There are, y'know, other groups out there. Lots of 'em, in fact.

100% agree, best warcraft rts game is wc3 is NOT based on alliance vs horde, in fact alliance AND horde AND nelf (back when they had more personality than getting killed and their goddess being the biggest idiot pikachu face sending them to hell) vs Burning Legion
warcraft insane popularity is thanks to wc3, why not act like wc3!?

Rather than bad writing?

Blizzard made the "Leaders" cartoonishly bad, so much so It gave them the excuse to make a Horde COUNCIL...of democraticly elected representatives something something imagine that monty python scene with the peasent and king Arthur talking about whose castle Is that...Instead of just working what a Warchief really IS.

Meanwhile, Stormwind still has a Heredetory Monarchy where a literal 17 year old child took over leadership of not Stormwind but the ENTIRITY of the Alliance as High King, which is apparently also Heredetory and nobody in the Alliance seemed to care about that fact?

then u missing wow point since ages, every other race in wow exist to show how amazing blizz staff self inserted images are, humans are best at everything, draenei has nature affliction to magic and practice it since 25k+ years? they still aren't as good as jaina, Nelf are over 10k+ years? nah a 17 year old child younger than some of her fucking nostril hair teach Tyrande about patience
Next they will introduce celestials who bow at the amazing wisdom of humans

[Super Dickmann]

-I think that summarize it best
Official lore says wc2 horde never ended, in fact it is supposed to still exist (not all of its members joined Garrosh)
Doomhammer abandoned horde, Thrall started the new horde, Doomhammer didn't lead since he left his position, it was Thrall the one who gathered and formed the current (new) playable faction horde, and he took symbol of leadership (doomhammer and armor) from the ex-leader of wc2 horde
I don't really get why u making it that hard, specially since already in-game it is clear that wc2 horde still exist, is evil and also not a big threat anymore
- u searched the history of TROLLBANE, and didn't find him being the bane of trolls -.- ? what about all quests in Arathi Highlands horde side in classic at least?

Not bothering with the rest of the post as I've no strong opinion on it, but Doomhammer was the one who made Thrall Warchief and there's ergo direct continuity between the Horde he lead and Thrall's. In fact, appointing Thrall is literally the last thing he did. Not only is Thrall only Warchief because Doomhammer gave him the rank as he was dying, but Thrall wore his armor and used his weapon as well as named his capital after him. Much like he named other settlements after Kargath and how he kept the entire structure of the Horde, Blood Oath and all entirely intact from the previous rule. There is neither a legal nor a structural difference between one Horde and the other. There is no new or old Horde except as a descriptor of Thrall's policy as compared to Doomhammer's/Blackhand's. The Horde of Draenor and the Dark Horde are splinter groups of no relevance to this in so far as members of them (Grom from the Horde of Draenor and Malkorok from the Dark Horde) eventually submitted to the authority of the main Warchief and so fused the streams.

There's far more of a separation between the Horde led by Garrosh and that by Vol'jin than there is between Orgrim and Thrall in as much as Vol'jin came to power by way of a civil war rather than succession.

[Mehrunes]

Not bothering with the rest of the post as I've no strong opinion on it, but Doomhammer was the one who made Thrall Warchief and there's ergo direct continuity between the Horde he lead and Thrall's. In fact, appointing Thrall is literally the last thing he did. Not only is Thrall only Warchief because Doomhammer gave him the rank as he was dying, but Thrall wore his armor and used his weapon as well as named his capital after him. Much like he named other settlements after Kargath and how he kept the entire structure of the Horde, Blood Oath and all entirely intact from the previous rule. There is neither a legal nor a structural difference between one Horde and the other. There is no new or old Horde except as a descriptor of Thrall's policy as compared to Doomhammer's/Blackhand's. The Horde of Draenor and the Dark Horde are splinter groups of no relevance to this in so far as members of them (Grom from the Horde of Draenor and Malkorok from the Dark Horde) eventually submitted to the authority of the main Warchief and so fused the streams.

There's far more of a separation between the Horde led by Garrosh and that by Vol'jin than there is between Orgrim and Thrall in as much as Vol'jin came to power by way of a civil war rather than succession.

Then there's the "The entirety of ex-Horde opposition to Sylvanas is a dozen of vagrants hiding out at a shitty tower in EPL" cinematic, where Saurfang got his epiphany about the nature of the Horde. Where he told his master that Sylvanas, who had a direct continuity from Thrall, is the true heir of Blackhand's Horde.

[sam86]

Not bothering with the rest of the post as I've no strong opinion on it, but Doomhammer was the one who made Thrall Warchief and there's ergo direct continuity between the Horde he lead and Thrall's. In fact, appointing Thrall is literally the last thing he did

and he has no rights to after he abandoned the (old) horde and left its leadership for Rend and Maim to claim
If u want to make Thrall and playable horde continue of wc2 horde, u need Maim and Rend to appoint or approve of Thrall (back then, since i assume they are dead now)
This is like Metzen decided now that wow is owned by Dreamhaven, yeah he was the head of wow lore (and entire team) for long time, but he left since years and he has no rights to do so, maybe if he did in 2004 he had the rights back then, but for sure not anymore

Why it isn't clear... Doomhammer ABANDONED the horde, the warchief of wc2 horde ARE Maim and Rend, they have the right to decide that horde where it goes and what to do with it, this is like a stormwind kid decide who has the right to Lordearon, even if actual literal Lordearon citizens who again literally died defending their country (and risen against their own will) exist and they sure have more rights to Lordearon fate than the minority who still alive or the rest of alliance (yes i'm talking about Forsaken)

- - - Updated - - -

Then there's the "The entirety of ex-Horde opposition to Sylvanas is a dozen of vagrants hiding out at a shitty tower in EPL" cinematic, where Saurfang got his epiphany about the nature of the Horde. Where he told his master that Sylvanas, who had a direct continuity from Thrall, is the true heir of Blackhand's Horde.

and it was obvious he meant that Sylvanas is leading the current horde like how Blackhand led the old horde, nothing about it being wc2 horde
and to summarize it, is there anything at all blizz stated that wc3 horde is continue of old horde or a new start, like how Metzen clearly clarified that wow alliance is continue of wc2 alliance ?

[Super Dickmann]

and he has no rights to after he abandoned the (old) horde and left its leadership for Rend and Maim to claim
If u want to make Thrall and playable horde continue of wc2 horde, u need Maim and Rend to appoint or approve of Thrall (back then, since i assume they are dead now)
This is like Metzen decided now that wow is owned by Dreamhaven, yeah he was the head of wow lore (and entire team) for long time, but he left since years and he has no rights to do so, maybe if he did in 2004 he had the rights back then, but for sure not anymore

This is pretty tortured logic. Doomhammer never stopped being Warchief just because Rend and Maim splintered off, especially given that they opportunistically deserted in the middle of the fight with the Alliance at Blackrock Spire, there's no get out of jail free card if your leader loses in the Blood Oath. He also didn't abandon shit, he was captured by force and then broke free. He didn't resume functional command because most of the Horde was captive, but everyone from Drek'thar to Thrall himself still considered him Warchief, hence why Thrall only took on the spot after being given it, and wore his armor, used his weapon, named the capital after him and named other cities after other members of the Horde and retained the exact same organisation in all regards. Thrall and everyone around him considered there to be direct continuity between the two.

If the leader gives you the spot, you acknowledge that to be the case and then wear absolutely all trappings of his position and rule an identical organisation that you consider yourself to hold power over because of his wishes, then you're his successor. The efforts to distance the WC2 Horde from the WC3 Horde are as painful as they are unconvincing.