1. #2401
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    what? i can literally find a mythic+ or mythic raid boost and get all gear traded to me with gold that i buy off the shop.
    Yes, but you still have to be carried by people who have done the content a long time before you.
    No amount of gold or RL money can buy you a world 1st or doing the highest level of keys if you lack the proper in-game and social skills.

    There is no pay to win in WoW, but I do agree that you can pay your way to be mediocre.
    But you can't in any way pay your way to be able to play with good players as they will spot your mediocrity right away.
    Good players won't respect a bostee, but treat him as the pathetic looser he is.

    buying a boost gives you as much "win" as strutting around in a t-shirt saying "I did the Hawaii Iron Man" while weighing 150 kilos.

  2. #2402
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Yes, but you still have to be carried by people who have done the content a long time before you.
    No amount of gold or RL money can buy you a world 1st or doing the highest level of keys if you lack the proper in-game and social skills.

    There is no pay to win in WoW, but I do agree that you can pay your way to be mediocre.
    But you can't in any way pay your way to be able to play with good players as they will spot your mediocrity right away.
    Good players won't respect a bostee, but treat him as the pathetic looser he is.

    buying a boost gives you as much "win" as strutting around in a t-shirt saying "I did the Hawaii Iron Man" while weighing 150 kilos.
    Limit literally bought dozens of race changes to try and win the world's first race. Seems pretty P2W to me. Not to mention all the tokens that were used to buy high-quality BoE gear.

    Straight-up buying "wins" is never a thing. I don't know of any game that does that at least. That you cannot buy skill either is more than clear to anyone..
    Last edited by Clozer; 2021-10-05 at 10:07 AM.

  3. #2403
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    United Kingdom and I said overtime.
    Not many places pay double time. Or even time and a half anymore.

  4. #2404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    Nope. P2W is quite clear.
    The definition of P2W is patently not clear, as evidenced by the length of this thread...and the fact that you disagree with the definition I gave

    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    It's when you can buy top tier gear/power directly in a shop for real money instead of actually playing the game/doing the content rewarding said gear/power.
    Well, this would be one example of what would probably make WoW p2w. But as a general definition for p2w it's pretty poor, especially given that I provided you with a much better definition.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Right, youre able to buy your way into circumventing the intent of the game. Its an MMO, youre supposed to play with friends..
    That is simply not true. You are supposed to play in a world populated with a lot of other players with whom you may interact. And while a lot of the content is best experienced by playing it with friends, this is not the only mode of play that the game was designed or intended to accommodate.

    Besides which, I was never even advocating tokens as a means of avoiding playing with friends. That's some twisted logic you're trying to use there.

  5. #2405
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Yes, but you still have to be carried by people who have done the content a long time before you.
    No amount of gold or RL money can buy you a world 1st or doing the highest level of keys if you lack the proper in-game and social skills.

    There is no pay to win in WoW, but I do agree that you can pay your way to be mediocre.
    But you can't in any way pay your way to be able to play with good players as they will spot your mediocrity right away.
    Good players won't respect a bostee, but treat him as the pathetic looser he is.

    buying a boost gives you as much "win" as strutting around in a t-shirt saying "I did the Hawaii Iron Man" while weighing 150 kilos.
    if getting world first is "winning" in wow than nobody is ever winning in the game. that is such a dumb argument.

  6. #2406
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    if getting world first is "winning" in wow than nobody is ever winning in the game. that is such a dumb argument.
    Thank you for reading my whole post and not just picking out a sentence and replying to that /s

  7. #2407
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Im not jealous or envy of anyone playing a videogame. But I feel sorry for those that actually play the game as intended and obtain said rewards doing so, when anyone in the game can just "lol token lol carry haha nice" and both have achived the same thing.
    This sentence tells me a lot about the flaws in your thinking...

    Firstly, if anything, I feel a lot more sorry for those who have to pay someone to help them, instead of being able to do it themselves. Secondly, it may be true that anyone can buy a token and use the gold to buy a carry, not everyone can. Only a select few. Thirdly, carries are not reserved for people who got their gold via tokens. Anyone with gold can buy a carry, and most people with that kind of gold actually made it without resorting to tokens.

    Lastly, and most importantly, I don't know what it is that you think people who buy boosts are achieving. At best they are acquiring some in game rewards.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    I have played wow since it released back in the stone age and I have never felt mad or jelous for missing out on titles, gear, mounts and whatnot. I have always known that the people that obtained it did so by playing the game, being good and spendt time on it. Only reason I didnt have it was because I lacked the desire, skill or time to obtain them. Im glad for the stuff I have obtained though and those things matter, cause most of it was done before wow went p2w with the token, meaning the game turned into a boosting service.
    Good for you. And no, the game never went p2w, because that is not what boosting services are. Nor do boosting services even owe their existence to the token. They predate the token, and in many cases a token doesn't even enter the equation. It sounds to me like have an issue with the token, but it's not based on reason or logic, as much as you try to rationalise it as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Whatever people obtain in the game now, means literally nothing. It has zero value. It holds nothing.
    It never has. What does have value is the experience we take out of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    With that logic Blizzard should take action and put boosting services themself on the store. Afterall, they are just helping people. In fact, its not really a bad idea. Let people spend 30 euros on a AI runned raid/dungeon that does the work for you. Its just help.
    No. That does not follow logically at all. And right now you're embarrassing yourself with such a display of ineptitude when it comes to application of logic.

    Since you clearly missed the point, it's not about people getting helped. It's about people getting helped by other players.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Then shouldnt Blizzard just take control and offer boosting services from the store? AI runned raids would be great.
    No. That would be awful and nothing like what tokens offer us. Your entire line of reasoning here is just nonsense. I have argued that a critical part of what makes tokens not p2w is the required involvement of other players. And yet you're still making arguments based on the non-existence of players. Get with the program.

  8. #2408
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    This sentence tells me a lot about the flaws in your thinking...

    Firstly, if anything, I feel a lot more sorry for those who have to pay someone to help them, instead of being able to do it themselves. Secondly, it may be true that anyone can buy a token and use the gold to buy a carry, not everyone can. Only a select few. Thirdly, carries are not reserved for people who got their gold via tokens. Anyone with gold can buy a carry, and most people with that kind of gold actually made it without resorting to tokens.

    Lastly, and most importantly, I don't know what it is that you think people who buy boosts are achieving. At best they are acquiring some in game rewards.



    Good for you. And no, the game never went p2w, because that is not what boosting services are. Nor do boosting services even owe their existence to the token. They predate the token, and in many cases a token doesn't even enter the equation. It sounds to me like have an issue with the token, but it's not based on reason or logic, as much as you try to rationalise it as such.



    It never has. What does have value is the experience we take out of the game.



    No. That does not follow logically at all. And right now you're embarrassing yourself with such a display of ineptitude when it comes to application of logic.

    Since you clearly missed the point, it's not about people getting helped. It's about people getting helped by other players.



    No. That would be awful and nothing like what tokens offer us. Your entire line of reasoning here is just nonsense. I have argued that a critical part of what makes tokens not p2w is the required involvement of other players. And yet you're still making arguments based on the non-existence of players. Get with the program.
    In any case, I guess its great for Blizzard having the players themself defend the wow token and the obvious pw2 scheme it has become. Luckily for Blizzard they dont need to rely on high sub numbers anymore(aka create a good MMORPG), but can do just fine with the sales of mounts+wow token while having less players.

    The fact that you dont see the wow token as a troublesome feature within wow is very worrying, but I suppose MMORPGs is not your thing.

    Its nothing else than a cash grab done by Blizzard that has ruined alot of the game. It also doesnt just diminish the value of what players obtain(titles, mounts, gear), but gold has no value within the game anymore. Why should I actually play the game when I can just click a few buttons and get 200k gold?

    Atleast before token the "get with the program" was to actually play the damn game and earn your buck if you really wanted to get carried & boosted.

    Overall the game suffers cause Blizzard doesnt need lots of players. They just need enough people that sub and buy enough tokens. As such, they dont need to create great content that keeps us playing. Cause why would they? The players they have now accept a lesser version of a MMORPG(If we still can call it that) while spewing out money for boosts. The other half does the boosting.

  9. #2409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Limit literally bought dozens of race changes to try and win the world's first race. Seems pretty P2W to me. Not to mention all the tokens that were used to buy high-quality BoE gear.
    Except that they didn't spend a cent of real money for this. By definition it cannot be pay to win since they didn't pay.

    I believe your error here stems from the often quoted fact that they spent around $57 000 worth of gold on their Castle Nathria race. They did not, however, spend money to acquire that gold. That is simply what it would have cost had they elected to use tokens. They acquired all their gold ingame. The fact that they were able to do so and did not have to resort to using tokens at all, is a pretty strong demonstration of why tokens are not p2w.

  10. #2410
    Monthly reminder that WoW still has, indeed, Pay-to-Win features.

  11. #2411
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    In any case, I guess its great for Blizzard having the players themself defend the wow token and the obvious pw2 scheme it has become.
    Oh bugger off with that nonsense. I don't care to defend Blizzard. I just think your argument is nonsense and have called you out on it since this is a debating forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Luckily for Blizzard they dont need to rely on high sub numbers anymore(aka create a good MMORPG), but can do just fine with the sales of mounts+wow token while having less players.
    Pray do tell, to whom exactly are Blizzard selling these things if not the "sub numbers" you think they don't need hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    The fact that you dont see the wow token as a troublesome feature within wow is very worrying, but I suppose MMORPGs is not your thing.
    The fact that you seem to think wow tokens are a troublesome feature is very worrying, as is your inability to put together a proper argument to substantiate your position - and hence your preference for resorting to ad hominem.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Its nothing else than a cash grab done by Blizzard that has ruined alot of the game. It also doesnt just diminish the value of what players obtain(titles, mounts, gear), but gold has no value within the game anymore. Why should I actually play the game when I can just click a few buttons and get 200k gold?
    All of what you are saying here has been thoroughly rebutted by not just me, but several others as well.

    All a token buys is a bit of gold, a currency that is readily made in-game without any need of the token. And because all the gold that a token gets you was obtained by other players, it is impossible that tokens could ever become the de facto means of gaining gold in game. Yes, it is possible for an individual to click a few buttons and get easy gold for cash. But it is not possible for the playerbase to do this en masse as you suggest.

    And if you think that clicking a few buttons to turn some of your money into your gold somehow invalidates your game experience, then the problem isn't the token, it's that you aren't enjoying the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Atleast before token the "get with the program" was to actually play the damn game and earn your buck if you really wanted to get carried & boosted.
    Been there, done that. Again you're making the wildly inaccurate assumption that every boost is paid for by tokens. And honestly, if some players out there are paying by token, do I really care? No I don't, because they end up making the token cheaper for me to buy and get my game time for free.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Overall the game suffers cause Blizzard doesnt need lots of players. They just need enough people that sub and buy enough tokens.
    And who exactly are those tokens being sold on the auction house to hmm? That is the wonderfully elegant thing about tokens that you just don't seem to get. They don't create gold. They transfer it between players. The whole system remains in exactly the same balance as always, but with a number of advantages in terms of a more equitable distribution of gold across the playerbase.

    No offense, but it's pretty clear that your obvious disdain for tokens (as irrational as it is) has completed clouded your ability to think clearly about this.

  12. #2412
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No offense, but it's pretty clear that your obvious disdain for tokens (as irrational as it is) has completed clouded your ability to think clearly about this.
    Clearly your love for the token doesn't let you see the other side of the coin, which is why you think it isn't a P2W mechanic.

  13. #2413
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    Quote Originally Posted by BattleHammer View Post
    Clearly your love for the token doesn't let you see the other side of the coin, which is why you think it isn't a P2W mechanic.
    Lol. I have no feelings for the token either way. I value truth, accuracy and logical thinking, that is it. If someone here could actually put together a strong argument for why tokens are p2w I would welcome it. But in nearly 2 and a half thousand posts it's just the same drivel that evades, dodges and ignores the arguments made against it. It's like these guys desperately want WoW to be p2w because, hey, everyone knows that p2w game are shitty.

    I often wonder how many debating here:
    - have bothered to look up the definition of "p2w",
    - have been taught how to put together an argument,
    - know what the difference is between a claim, warrant, grounds, backing, qualifier and rebuttal, or how they are all necessary parts of an argument
    - are interested in debate at all

    If anything I am bitterly disappointed at the pitifully poor standard of the arguments here. I feel like I am debating against kids. It's like they have come with an agenda to fight for a side, and assume everyone else is doing the same, never stopping to consider that some, like me, aren't interested in sides or factions, but figuring out the truth.

  14. #2414
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Lol. I have no feelings for the token either way. I value truth, accuracy and logical thinking, that is it. If someone here could actually put together a strong argument for why tokens are p2w I would welcome it.
    I don't get why you think a cogent argument hasn't been offered multiple times.

    WoW lets you buy gold tokens for cash which you can use to buy everything else in the game.

    Most players would agree that collecting exclusive mounts, titles, achievements, gear, etc counts as "winning" in WoW. WoW tokens let you buy these from other players, allowing you to pay to win.

    Players don't buy mounts, etc, directly from Blizzard, but buying them with gold purchased with WoW tokens is effectively the same thing.

  15. #2415
    As long as boosting services continue to exist, WoW is definitely P2W. Want AOTC, CE, Gladiator Title/Mount, PVP Gear/Raid Gear? A booster can get you all that provided you have the money. I honestly have no idea why this thread is 123 pages long when the answer is clearly, yes, it's P2W and anyone who says otherwise is delusional.

    Just because you're not giving the money directly to Blizzard doesn't change anything. The fact is, that as a new player, you can create a WoW account, buy a boost, buy as many WoW tokens as mommy's credit card allows, sell tokens on AH for gold, pay a booster in gold to level you up, and then pay boosters in gold to run your character through any sort of content your interested in (mythic+ dungeons, raids, rated PVP, etc...) while you AFK and win!

    Some may argue that you can farm the gold yourself and use the gold for boosting services without ever having to pay real money, but guess what? That's still P2W, you are still paying with a currency to get carried through content you can't do without paying.

  16. #2416
    Quote Originally Posted by dizzzave View Post
    Most players would agree that collecting exclusive mounts, titles, achievements, gear, etc counts as "winning" in WoW. WoW tokens let you buy these from other players, allowing you to pay to win.
    Having "stuff" isn't winning. Getting "stuff" requires grinding or getting lucky. Some people choose to grind or make their own luck in real life.

    Maybe you should play an actual P2W game where spending money on the game does give you an actual game play advantage.

  17. #2417
    Quote Originally Posted by dizzzave View Post
    WoW lets you buy gold tokens for cash which you can use to buy everything else in the game.
    and literaly everything you can buy with money you get from token you could buy with real money over DECADE before token was added...
    so either wow is p2w since vanila or it still isnt, token changed NOTHING about it

  18. #2418
    Quote Originally Posted by dizzzave View Post
    I don't get why you think a cogent argument hasn't been offered multiple times.

    WoW lets you buy gold tokens for cash which you can use to buy everything else in the game.

    Most players would agree that collecting exclusive mounts, titles, achievements, gear, etc counts as "winning" in WoW. WoW tokens let you buy these from other players, allowing you to pay to win.

    Players don't buy mounts, etc, directly from Blizzard, but buying them with gold purchased with WoW tokens is effectively the same thing.
    You can make gold through the auction house and daily quests and a lot of players have gold left over from WoD's garrisons. That's why people are saying WoW isn't pay-to-win, because anything you can do by spending money can also be done just by playing the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitedguy View Post
    As long as boosting services continue to exist, WoW is definitely P2W. Want AOTC, CE, Gladiator Title/Mount, PVP Gear/Raid Gear? A booster can get you all that provided you have the money. I honestly have no idea why this thread is 123 pages long when the answer is clearly, yes, it's P2W and anyone who says otherwise is delusional.

    Just because you're not giving the money directly to Blizzard doesn't change anything. The fact is, that as a new player, you can create a WoW account, buy a boost, buy as many WoW tokens as mommy's credit card allows, sell tokens on AH for gold, pay a booster in gold to level you up, and then pay boosters in gold to run your character through any sort of content your interested in (mythic+ dungeons, raids, rated PVP, etc...) while you AFK and win!

    Some may argue that you can farm the gold yourself and use the gold for boosting services without ever having to pay real money, but guess what? That's still P2W, you are still paying with a currency to get carried through content you can't do without paying.
    Interesting new take, games can now be pay-2-win even if there's no RMT going on.

  19. #2419
    Quote Originally Posted by Excitedguy View Post
    Just because you're not giving the money directly to Blizzard doesn't change anything. The fact is, that as a new player, you can create a WoW account, buy a boost, buy as many WoW tokens as mommy's credit card allows, sell tokens on AH for gold, pay a booster in gold to level you up, and then pay boosters in gold to run your character through any sort of content your interested in (mythic+ dungeons, raids, rated PVP, etc...) while you AFK and win!
    so you think wow was p2w since vanila? as boosting existed, selling gold or items existed, you didnt give money directly to blizzard but you yourself waived that as not necessary for p2w...

    btw i think there is limit to how many tokens you can buy, though im not realy sure

  20. #2420
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Gold doesn't win you anything though.
    Apply this fallacy to any other game. Youre basically saying nothing is p2w.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    so you think wow was p2w since vanila? as boosting existed, selling gold or items existed, you didnt give money directly to blizzard but you yourself waived that as not necessary for p2w...
    Youve lost the plot. Cheating is in no way the same as paying real money for convenience bypasses sold by the games maker..
    Last edited by Daymanmb; 2021-10-05 at 02:45 PM.

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