Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Raelbo]

I don't get why you think a cogent argument hasn't been offered multiple times.

If you think what you have offered is a good argument, allow me to show you why it is not.

WoW lets you buy gold tokens for cash which you can use to buy everything else in the game.

You have made a claim. But have you considered the qualifiers for this claim?

For example, is it practical for everyone in the game to buy whatever they want using tokens? The simple answer is no. The long answer is that in theory, a very limited number of players could buy whatever they want, but for the vast majority of players, what you can actually achieve with tokens is pretty limited.

In other words, your claim is true, but only in a very limited sense.

Most players would agree that collecting exclusive mounts, titles, achievements, gear, etc counts as "winning" in WoW. WoW tokens let you buy these from other players, allowing you to pay to win.

There are a number of serious issues with this claim.

Firstly you're attempting to use as grounds for your claim, the unsubstantiated assertion that "Most players would agree". According to whom exactly? Can you back that assertion up as a solid fact, or is it just something you assume? (obviously it's the latter).

Secondly, you're trying to use a semantic argument to demonstrate that WoW is pay to win by applying your own literal definition of the words. You have provided grounds and warrants for your definition, but did you consider any rebuttals? For example, did you, at any point, bother to investigate where this term "pay to win" comes from or whether it already had an established meaning? Obviously not.

Pay to Win has an established meaning and history. If you want to apply a label to something, find out what its meaning is first, instead of deciding to use your own uninformed interpretation.

Here are a few online definitions that may not be exactly dictionary definitions (there is none) but they give an idea of what the generally accepted meaning is:
"in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others."
"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying"
"Any game policy where specific content needed to win is locked behind pay walls. Forcing people to pay, in order to access said content."
"Pay to Win is a situation in gaming (usually MMOs or Massively Multiplayer Online games) where companies allow you to buy items or advantages with real money that cannot be obtained normally by playing the game. An exception to the rule is that if an item/advantage can be obtained in-game but the acquisition time is unreasonably long, that can also be considered Pay to Win."

Now tell me, does the WoW token meet any of those definitions? No it does not.

If you look at all those definitions, the common theme is this: In a pay to win game, you are required to pay. Conversely, if you do not pay, you are putting yourself at a significant disadvantage to those who do.

Players don't buy mounts, etc, directly from Blizzard, but buying them with gold purchased with WoW tokens is effectively the same thing.

The weakness of your claim here is that you haven't considered the possible rebuttals.

Yes, there are some similarities. But I assure it is not effectively the same thing. Why? Because you're buying the gold from other players. That has an effect on the game. Allow me to illustrate the difference:

Scenario #1:
Blizzard sells the sparkle pony in the store. When a player pays money to the store, a new mount is created and added to the game. If every player of the game paid for this mount, the only thing that would change is that everyone would now be $20 poorer and have a new mount added to their collection.

Scenario #2:
Blizzard sells the Brutosaur in-game for 5M gold. If a player wants to buy this using tokens, he needs to fork out a whopping $400. This puts 20 tokens onto the AH and 20 other players in the game who have acquired 250K of gold each, need to buy those tokens. Because of the size of the market, this single event is unremarkable and barely affects the token market. Now consider what happens if every player in the game decides they want to spend money to buy tokens to buy this mount. It cannot happen. You see, for every person wanting gold, you need a supplier of that gold. The system needs to be balanced. If the demand for gold starts increasing, the token price dips and suddenly what you thought was obtainable is not.

If buying a token for money created gold in the game, then it would qualify as p2w. But because it does not, it is not. The token is simply a means of transacting between players.

[Dzonathan]

and that have fuck all to do with my point...

but lets make a little count: you are born in macedonia, finish school, start working, and make the amazing minimum wage of the country which is less than 300e a month, now what do you think those people can do, snap fingers and appear in country with 10 times as much? even if they already had a job there, what exactly would they live from first month before they would get salary? bcs from their home minimum wage they could hardly save enough money to pay month worth of bills in richer country...

You're not familiar with overcrowding landlords in UK are you? People take advantage of them to temporarily share a double bedroom with 5 immigrants to pay pennies for a corner to sleep until they have enough surplus from their first few wages to rent from agency.

Not many places pay double time. Or even time and a half anymore.

Only if you can't be bothered to look.

If so much as a lowly job at a TESCO food warehouse as a picker gets you 150% overtime at base rate of £11, outside of London no less, then it only stands for reason anything better will pay only better and better.

[Lolites]

Man, youre unironically giving me shit for dodging your point, but here you are arguing minimum wage of 30 EU countries lmao.. get real

i reacted to his ASSPULLED number of 17gbp/hour of overtime at minimum wage, as that is not truth in ANY european country...
you guys are funny, i would bet anything you are from some rich country and have ZERO understanding of how money work for poor countries/people...

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If so much as a lowly job at a TESCO food warehouse as a picker gets you 150% overtime at base rate of £11, outside of London no less, then it only stands for reason anything better will pay only better and better.

you would think that, but as a payroll accountant i can tell you its not truth
for example office jobs usualy dont even HAVE overtime pay (unless its literaly whole day on weekend), if you stay few hours longer your problem, you should made your work in your time, they dont care you needed more

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You're not familiar with overcrowding landlords in UK are you? People take advantage of them to temporarily share a double bedroom with 5 immigrants to pay pennies for a corner to sleep until they have enough surplus from their first few wages to rent from agency.

they would still need job.. and that place (im pretty sure there is not enouch place for all macedonians in UK)...
still though, there are milions reasons why people cant/wont move to richer country, but that still have fuck all to do with my point that most people would have to work far more than hour for that amount of money...

[Daymanmb]

so if i buy gold via token i use p2w feature, but if i buy it from 3rd party website im not, even though its LITERALY the same outcome... is that what you say?
bcs if it is you are WAAAAAY out of reality...

No my man, youre glossing over the difference and then claiming isnt one, which couldnt be further from the truth.

Let me break it down for you again, and stay with me, I know this is difficult for you.. When people talk about p2w mechanics, they talk about what the games maker sells for profit. Rift sells item slots, pretty clear case. FUT sells card packs, pretty clear case. Blizzard sells gold, pretty clear case.

Lets look at a hypothetical. If FUT didnt sell card packs, but instead you could trade soccer players to people, but instead of trading those players in game, people sold them on a 3rd party site, against the TOS, FUT wouldnt be considered p2w. Just like no one considered Wow p2w, until Blizzard started selling the token.

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i reacted to his ASSPULLED number of 17gbp/hour of overtime at minimum wage, as that is not truth in ANY european country...
you guys are funny, i would bet anything you are from some rich country and have ZERO understanding of how money work for poor countries/people...

Still unironically arguing his point with non sequiturs... This is a good stance for you to take

still, 2nd time avoiding my question:

Says it all..

[Raelbo]

And I will ask the same question again until you answer it.
You go ahead and tell me with a straight face an average WoW player can guarantee 300k gold for every hour he puts into the game.

It's a disingenuous question (even before you accidentally halved the time or assumed an "average player" is a fair benchmark).

You do realize that the gold price of the token is determined by what the players who make the gold consider to be a fair price right? As it is the amount of monetary value that the goldseller gets out is already 35% less than what the goldbuyer paid. So clearly the real value of gold (which is a direct function of the difficulty in obtaining it) is pretty low.

[Dzonathan]

but that still have fuck all to do with my point that most people would have to work far more than hour for that amount of money...

Maybe so. But here's the kicker.
People who earn more than minimum wage in any country can also play WoW.
Someone who earns £50/h or £100/h.
Now that turns into 882k gold/hour or 2000k gold/hour.

Now you try and tell me with a straight face someone who has this much disposable money does not have an advantage over someone who has not?

[Lolites]

No my man

so its all about buying gold thats making the difference for you (still just opinon though, but ok)

yet this whole "discusion" started by you disagreeing with me on my coment to someone who said wow is now p2w bcs you can buy boost for gold now... not bcs you can buy gold...
just...why? you know what never mind, i dont think i can handle more crazy talk today

[Dzonathan]

It's a disingenuous question (even before you accidentally halved the time or assumed an "average player" is a fair benchmark).

You do realize that the gold price of the token is determined by what the players who make the gold consider to be a fair price right? As it is the amount of monetary value that the goldseller gets out is already 35% less than what the goldbuyer paid. So clearly the real value of gold (which is a direct function of the difficulty in obtaining it) is pretty low.

It doesn't matter.

You put in money you instantly get in-game monetary advantage over someone who can not afford. Pretty low or Pretty high is not relevant to the core issue here.

[kaminaris]

Are you still going on with the same old argument since the start of the thread? I thought the thread would be dead by now but it appears to be Marmot Day in here.

Anyway: the fallacy of your argument remains: now it's with the Blizzard's blessing and extremely easier/common so you do not compare the same thing.

So you didn't hear about TCG? Fortunately his argument has no fallacy, your does.

First of all it's not easier. Buying directly is easier, no hassle with currency conversion and you pay exactly for a service. No need to buy couple of tokens.
Second: People don't care about blizzard blessing lol.

[Daymanmb]

Second: People don't care about blizzard blessing lol.

Yes they do lol. How many people do you think were willing to have their account banned?

[Laqweeta]

Buy two wow tokens for $40

Sell tokens for 400,000 gold

Buy mythic 252 ilvl boots for 400,000 gold

Yes, it is P2W at this point.

[Lolites]

Now you try and tell me with a straight face someone who has this much disposable money does not have an advantage over someone who has not?

im sorry, when did i argue people with more money dont have advantage?
ofc you have advantage, if you want to, in wow, (and you had before token) or whatever else, hockey, horseriding, whatever...

i argued that

Even on minimum wage you can get £17 by doing 1 hour of overtime.

as that is just not truth...

[Daymanmb]

so its all about buying gold thats making the difference for you (still just opinon though, but ok)

yet this whole "discusion" started by you disagreeing with me on my coment to someone who said wow is now p2w bcs you can buy boost for gold now... not bcs you can buy gold...
just...why? you know what never mind, i dont think i can handle more crazy talk today

Jesus... ok this is the post I responded to:

WoW lets you buy gold tokens for cash which you can use to buy everything else in the game..

and literaly everything you can buy with money you get from token you could buy with real money over DECADE before token was added...
so either wow is p2w since vanila or it still isnt, token changed NOTHING about it

You made it about boosts, which has nothing to do with p2w..

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im sorry, when did i argue people with more moeny dont have advantage?
ofc you have advantage, if you want to, in wow, (and you had before token) or whatever else, hockey, horseriding, whatever...

i argued that



as that is just not truth...

Still unironically avoiding his point, huh? Dig in deeper, this is a good look lol

[kaminaris]

Yes they do lol. How many people do you think were willing to have their account banned?

You dont get your account banned for buying boosts (well in extreme cases you may get one). You get banned for selling them. At very best you could get suspension.

[Dzonathan]

im sorry, when did i argue people with more money dont have advantage?
ofc you have advantage, if you want to, in wow, (and you had before token) or whatever else, hockey, horseriding, whatever...

And said advantage tips victory conditions in your favour depending on how much you put in.
The more money you pay, the more likely you will win.
Ergo WoW is Pay to Win.

[Daymanmb]

You dont get your account banned for buying boosts (well in extreme cases you may get one). You get banned for selling them. At very best you could get suspension.

My man, you were talking about buying gold lol... neither your post, nor the one you quoted talked about boosts.

[Dhrizzle]

Man, I even put in /s...

Ah, missed that as it came mid-sentence and not at the end.

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And I will ask the same question again until you answer it.
You go ahead and tell me with a straight face an average WoW player can guarantee 300k gold for every hour he puts into the game.

I can't, at least not since the end of WoD, but why is that relevant? I've already said that buying gold pays for you to skip time.

Also you're not asking me a question there, you're demanding I make a statement.

Maybe it doesn't but most companies do so your point is moot.

If they're offering a higher rate for working over a certain number of hours then they aren't paying minimum wage at that point. Also I've never known a company that pays minimum wage double it for overtime. In fact most are service/catering/hospitality and don't even use the term overtime, they just expect you to keep working until the job is done.

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And were back to looking at FUT. Money can save you thousands of hours of game play. Thats not p2w?

You still haven't explained what the mechanics are with FUT so I don't know. I know that everything you can achieve in WoW by paying cash can be achieved through normal gameplay, either by grinding up the gold or playing well. Can you give examples of people doing whatever people pay for in FUT through normal gameplay?

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so if i buy gold via token i use p2w feature, but if i buy it from 3rd party website im not, even though its LITERALY the same outcome... is that what you say?
bcs if it is you are WAAAAAY out of reality...

Some people are using the term based on their feelings, "pay-2-win" has more emotive impact than "pay-2-skip" or "pay-4-convenience" so they ignore the other terms. They're mad at a gaming company so it only applies when they endorse it, even if a generic gold-selling site can have the exact same effect.

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Only if you can't be bothered to look.

If so much as a lowly job at a TESCO food warehouse as a picker gets you 150% overtime at base rate of £11, outside of London no less, then it only stands for reason anything better will pay only better and better.

Tesco is a multinational corporation with huge profit margins, most minimum wage jobs are not that kind to their workers.

[Daymanmb]

Some people are using the term based on their feelings, "pay-2-win" has more emotive impact than "pay-2-skip" or "pay-4-convenience" so they ignore the other terms. They're mad at a gaming company so it only applies when they endorse it, even if a generic gold-selling site can have the exact same effect.

All of those terms are under the umbrella of p2w.

[Dhrizzle]

Yes they do lol. How many people do you think were willing to have their account banned?

Judging by how every black dragon camp in Burning Steppes and every Twilight Hammer camp in Silithus was infested with gold-farming hunter-bots, I'd say quite a lot.

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Buy two wow tokens for $40

Sell tokens for 400,000 gold

Buy mythic 252 ilvl boots for 400,000 gold

Yes, it is P2W at this point.

Play well, clear content normally, get boots.

Play with friends, get carried for free, get boots.

Use the AH, get 400,000 gold, use that to get carried, bet boots.

[BattleHammer]

and literaly everything you can buy with money you get from token you could buy with real money over DECADE before token was added...
so either wow is p2w since vanila or it still isnt, token changed NOTHING about it

Token changes the access to this player driven services.

A couple of examples:

Account A lvls normally and gets some gold from 1 to 60 (lets say a week or 2).
Account B buys a boost from blizz 1 to 50 instantly, then buys some tokens to get gold with it pays other players for boosting to 60 then at 60 gets BoE items a couple of mythic+/raid carrys.

Who has an advantage here?

In this scenario who has the advantage?
It's not that it didn't exist earlier, it's that now you can directly purchase it from the developer.