1. #2561
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    This is a weird argument. Of course you gear to raid, but you raid to get gear. Otherwise why put loot on the final raid of an expansion? That gear doesn't help you raid once the next expac drops. And I've been a hardcore raider for a majority of WoW from TBC up to early BFA so I know what we look for in those circles. How exactly are you paying attention to their performance without previous logs or trialing them? And if you are trialing them, are you just trialing any and every guy that says they're "skilled" even if they're rocking greens and gear not suitable for their spec?
    The gear you get from the First Normal Difficulty Boss will eventually allow you to complete the Final Mythic Difficulty Boss. The final boss from the final raid of an expansion doesn't technically give you useful loot but its there for completeness.

    A reasonable guild application might be able to link previous logs. Sure they'll also have good gear and decorations but you never really know until they get a trial. The player are sometimes found through M+ where their skill will be more obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    In case you haven't caught on, "decorations" may not equal skill but they highly indicate it. Without an ability to see their performance from either logs or actually bringing them in beforehand, you may have two players that may be equally skilled. One has greens and blues, and the other has gear already from the raid instance. You mean to tell me, you're going to give priority to the guy who has less "decorations"?

    Yes it is, this is purely semantics. You can call it decorations, gear, badges of honor, cookies, doesn't take away from the achievement of obtaining them when relevant. In fact, it's many a player's desire to complete that relevant content to show off those "decorations".
    Decorations are easy to obtain mostly. The person with epic loot looks better but if they paid their way you'll quickly know how bad they are. The person in blues and greens isn't even showing a basic effort. If a person isn't playing at a level their past decorations indicate they might be given a chance to excel but they'll be asked to step out if their gameplay isn't sufficient for harder content.

    Having good decorations isn't an indication of skill. I don't mind if people just want to pay for decorations. Its always been part of the game. That doesn't make the game P2W. It just means you're more willing to make your characters pretty.

    Again, actual P2W games give you more power within the game.

  2. #2562
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post


    But if someone asks you ''does the movie have bad scenes'' you're not going to answer ''its a good movie!'' you're going to say ''yes it does''.
    No one has EVER asked "does that movie have any bad scenes" - they ask "is it good?" or "did you like it?".

  3. #2563
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The gear you get from the First Normal Difficulty Boss will eventually allow you to complete the Final Mythic Difficulty Boss. The final boss from the final raid of an expansion doesn't technically give you useful loot but its there for completeness.

    A reasonable guild application might be able to link previous logs. Sure they'll also have good gear and decorations but you never really know until they get a trial. The player are sometimes found through M+ where their skill will be more obvious.



    Decorations are easy to obtain mostly. The person with epic loot looks better but if they paid their way you'll quickly know how bad they are. The person in blues and greens isn't even showing a basic effort. If a person isn't playing at a level their past decorations indicate they might be given a chance to excel but they'll be asked to step out if their gameplay isn't sufficient for harder content.

    Having good decorations isn't an indication of skill. I don't mind if people just want to pay for decorations. Its always been part of the game. That doesn't make the game P2W. It just means you're more willing to make your characters pretty.

    Again, actual P2W games give you more power within the game.
    Again, you can call it what you want but the obvious answer you avoided but implied is yes, you'd take the guy with said "decorations" over the guy who to YOU isn't even showing a basic effort. What if they have been but started late? What if they hadn't found the time to get the decorations? You don't know their story but you for damn sure aren't risking a spot on someone you're assuming "isn't even showing a basic effort". Thus, you prove my point.

    Actual P2W games do give you more power in game. But let's not pretend that WoW isn't that or doesn't have pay to win elements to suit your argument. You and I know full well you aren't inviting someone to a Mythic Sylvanas kill if their "decorations" and logs indicate the only boss they've killed is LFR Denathrius. But I bet you'd view someone more favorably if they had gear from Mythic Sanctum of Domination, especially if your guild has yet to even touch a Mythic boss in there. Let's not pretend that there isn't "power" to be gained from buying a boost, otherwise boosting both in-game and via third-party websites wouldn't even exist as it has been.

  4. #2564
    Out of curiosity, for those advocating that WoW is not P2W, what is winning in WoW?

    It is possible to drop a huge amount of money into tokens and trade it to clear M Raids or being at the top bracket in PvP. Isn't that considered winning? You are utilizing other players, yes, but you are doing it by spending real money.

    And if that that does not qualify as winning in WoW, what is? What would be considered winning.

  5. #2565
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Again, you can call it what you want but the obvious answer you avoided but implied is yes, you'd take the guy with said "decorations" over the guy who to YOU isn't even showing a basic effort. What if they have been but started late? What if they hadn't found the time to get the decorations? You don't know their story but you for damn sure aren't risking a spot on someone you're assuming "isn't even showing a basic effort". Thus, you prove my point.
    Why would we bother with someone who isn't even showing an effort? The game drowns you in easy epic loot.

    No spot is being risked. There are 30 of them in normal/heroic. M+ is available all the time. Not every player works out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Actual P2W games do give you more power in game. But let's not pretend that WoW isn't that or doesn't have pay to win elements to suit your argument. You and I know full well you aren't inviting someone to a Mythic Sylvanas kill if their "decorations" and logs indicate the only boss they've killed is LFR Denathrius. But I bet you'd view someone more favorably if they had gear from Mythic Sanctum of Domination, especially if your guild has yet to even touch a Mythic boss in there. Let's not pretend that there isn't "power" to be gained from buying a boost, otherwise boosting both in-game and via third-party websites wouldn't even exist as it has been.
    Again, they would get a trial. They pass or fail. If they fail, oh well, no big deal. Odds are they would have to show their stuff in Heroic or M+ before being allowed to a Mythic raid in any case.

    Buying boosts happen because people like having stuff. They're not gaining any real power advantage.

  6. #2566
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Why would we bother with someone who isn't even showing an effort? The game drowns you in easy epic loot.

    No spot is being risked. There are 30 of them in normal/heroic. M+ is available all the time. Not every player works out.
    Once more, that's your assumption. You're deliberately dodging the point.


    Again, they would get a trial. They pass or fail. If they fail, oh well, no big deal. Odds are they would have to show their stuff in Heroic or M+ before being allowed to a Mythic raid in any case.

    Buying boosts happen because people like having stuff. They're not gaining any real power advantage.
    You aren't even offering someone who to you isn't even "showing a basic effort" a trial spot. By your own definition, someone who bought gear from a Mythic-run is "showing a basic effort" so guess what advantage he has gotten?

  7. #2567
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No one has EVER asked "does that movie have any bad scenes" - they ask "is it good?" or "did you like it?".
    LoL
    This basically sums up the non-p2w people right here, you ask them a simple question and they argue about totally unrelated things in circles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    Out of curiosity, for those advocating that WoW is not P2W, what is winning in WoW?

    It is possible to drop a huge amount of money into tokens and trade it to clear M Raids or being at the top bracket in PvP. Isn't that considered winning? You are utilizing other players, yes, but you are doing it by spending real money.

    And if that that does not qualify as winning in WoW, what is? What would be considered winning.
    Whatever fits their argument until they get proven wrong at which point they change it again.

  8. #2568
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    You keep on failing to say how a grind translates into player power.

    Getting 500 mounts in game? Yeah that's a grind. I've done it. Paying for it certainly saves a lot of time. But how is that an advantage? Does that 500 mounts give some hidden buff in game? In an actual P2W game, those 500 mounts would give me an in game buff.

    Are you one of those people who think the purpose of raiding is to get gear?
    Are you high? I literally said this has nothing to do with player power and you rebut with "what about player power". This is a clown show..
    Last edited by Daymanmb; 2021-10-06 at 08:25 PM.

  9. #2569
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    LoL
    This basically sums up the non-p2w people right here, you ask them a simple question and they argue about totally unrelated things in circles.
    Oh dear. You must be new to the conversation. Please go back through some of the previous 120+ pages and try your very best to understand you have got my argument entirely wrong. I have said for over 100 pages that things like the boost absolutely 100% are P2W.

    So eager to start an internet fight you don't even care who you swing at.

    Secondly, I was not arguing in circles, I was literally responding to your question.

  10. #2570
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    LoL
    This basically sums up the non-p2w people right here, you ask them a simple question and they argue about totally unrelated things in circles.



    Whatever fits their argument until they get proven wrong at which point they change it again.
    That's what it feels like here. I'm literally leading the Ivan guy above head first into the point and he's like trying to dodge it as if calling gear "decorations" changes that very fact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Oh dear. You must be new to the conversation. Please go back through some of the previous 120+ pages and try your very best to understand you have got my argument entirely wrong. I have said for over 100 pages that things like the boost absolutely 100% are P2W.

    So eager to start an internet fight you don't even care who you swing at.
    I think he's agreeing with you ark.

  11. #2571
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post

    I think he's agreeing with you ark.
    Read the conversation. It's between just the two of us, so who is he accusing of arguing in circles? Of dodging?

  12. #2572
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Are you high? I literally said this has nothing to do with player power and you rebut with "what about player power". This is a clown show..
    No I'm putting you back on track. You should be more appreciative. Pay2Win and Pay2Decoration are two different things.

    But you're right this is a clown show. Imagine being so upset that someone bought something shiny.

  13. #2573
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    No I'm putting you back on track. You should be more appreciative. Pay2Win and Pay2Decoration are two different things.

    But you're right this is a clown show. Imagine being so upset that someone bought something shiny.
    Thats a non sequitur.. who said Im upset? Im mildly irritated that youre so thick skulled, but Im prepared to move on from debate with you, youre dug in too deep.. but Im not upset in any way with how people spend their money.

    Also your making up terms as you go lol. Pay2decoration?

  14. #2574
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    You aren't even offering someone who to you isn't even "showing a basic effort" a trial spot. By your own definition, someone who bought gear from a Mythic-run is "showing a basic effort" so guess what advantage he has gotten?
    Buying a full mythic set is showing better than a basic effort. So is learning to play the game better. The former is never trumped by the latter. At least in WoW.

    You claimed that you've raided hardcore previously. Can you tell the difference between someone who's bought their gear and one who hasn't?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Thats a non sequitur.. who said Im upset? Im mildly irritated that youre so thick skulled, but Im prepared to move on from debate with you, youre dug in too deep.. but Im not upset in any way with how people spend their money.

    Also your making up terms as you go lol. Pay2decoration?
    You can't even articulate what winning is in WoW and yet you keep on claiming that its P2W. In reality most people spending additional money on the game are just buying decorations. If you prefer that Blizzard would not sell decorations then by all means say that. Explicitly. I don't even have a counter-argument to that.

    Others have made decent examples of what actual P2W looks like and WoW doesn't qualify.

  15. #2575
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Read the conversation. It's between just the two of us, so who is he accusing of arguing in circles? Of dodging?
    I think he was accusing the other guy, from what I gather he was agreeing with you and basically saying that's what they do, they'll argue something different point to dodge the point we're making that the game is P2W.

  16. #2576
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Oh dear. You must be new to the conversation. Please go back through some of the previous 120+ pages and try your very best to understand you have got my argument entirely wrong. I have said for over 100 pages that things like the boost absolutely 100% are P2W.

    So eager to start an internet fight you don't even care who you swing at.

    Secondly, I was not arguing in circles, I was literally responding to your question.
    But then why would you even disagree??? My point is literally that its p2w but that doesn't by itself make something good or bad.
    ''Does it have bad scenes?'' is the same as asking if something is p2w, sure its not a common thing to ask, but that's because movies are generally made to be as good as they can, there would very rarely be things added to them that are bad on purpose, as opposed to games where we see it all the time which makes asking ''is it p2w'' or ''does it have p2w elements'' a lot more relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    I think he was accusing the other guy, from what I gather he was agreeing with you and basically saying that's what they do, they'll argue something different point to dodge the point we're making that the game is P2W.
    But he did that by saying ''the question is uncommon'' rather than just answering it, thus my reply, but its probably a misunderstanding then.
    Last edited by M1r4g3; 2021-10-06 at 08:52 PM.

  17. #2577
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Buying a full mythic set is showing better than a basic effort. So is learning to play the game better. The former is never trumped by the latter. At least in WoW.

    You claimed that you've raided hardcore previously. Can you tell the difference between someone who's bought their gear and one who hasn't?
    Yeah, we used logs and at least back then the number of kills they had when WoW showed it on the Armory page to differentiate between someone who bought a run vs. someone who raided and cleared the content. Wasn't always perfect but we'd bank more on the person having the gear over someone who didn't (can't gauge skill otherwise).

    The point I'm getting at is the advantage they paid for put them in a more favorable light over the next guy. That power, whether negligible or huge, put them at an advantage over someone who we didn't even consider had put in a basic amount of effort (and we saw plenty of applications in that manner). In this case, it's pay to win because it puts them at an advantage over the next guy who's equally vying for that coveted spot in a hardcore guild that they KNOW can clear the content. They get to skip the normal/heroic farm fest and jump straight into Mythic raids. Plenty of them were skilled yet didn't have the time but managed to still find a way to acquire gear they otherwise wouldn't have had access to, much like those who don't have the gear now.

  18. #2578
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Buying a full mythic set is showing better than a basic effort. So is learning to play the game better. The former is never trumped by the latter. At least in WoW.

    You claimed that you've raided hardcore previously. Can you tell the difference between someone who's bought their gear and one who hasn't?

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can't even articulate what winning is in WoW and yet you keep on claiming that its P2W. In reality most people spending additional money on the game are just buying decorations. If you prefer that Blizzard would not sell decorations then by all means say that. Explicitly. I don't even have a counter-argument to that.

    Others have made decent examples of what actual P2W looks like and WoW doesn't qualify.
    Still getting hung up on the literal use of win, despite you saying that paying real money for advantages constitutes p2w lol. Theres no hope for you
    Last edited by Daymanmb; 2021-10-06 at 09:07 PM.

  19. #2579
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post

    But he did that by saying ''the question is uncommon'' rather than just answering it, thus my reply, but its probably a misunderstanding then.
    Oh then I was wrong then. I thought you were agreeing with him xD

  20. #2580
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Yeah, we used logs and at least back then the number of kills they had when WoW showed it on the Armory page to differentiate between someone who bought a run vs. someone who raided and cleared the content. Wasn't always perfect but we'd bank more on the person having the gear over someone who didn't (can't gauge skill otherwise).

    The point I'm getting at is the advantage they paid for put them in a more favorable light over the next guy. That power, whether negligible or huge, put them at an advantage over someone who we didn't even consider had put in a basic amount of effort (and we saw plenty of applications in that manner). In this case, it's pay to win because it puts them at an advantage over the next guy who's equally vying for that coveted spot in a hardcore guild that they KNOW can clear the content. They get to skip the normal/heroic farm fest and jump straight into Mythic raids. Plenty of them were skilled yet didn't have the time but managed to still find a way to acquire gear they otherwise wouldn't have had access to, much like those who don't have the gear now.
    Anyone who's a consideration has to be trialed regardless of circumstances. Some people aren't going to work regardless of how they got their gear. If someone who bought their gear but delivered the goods anyways while being a cool person is worth keeping.

    The point is you can't buy an advantage. A money advantage can easily be negated by a time advantage. In fact the person with the time advantage is usually the better choice from a raiding/pvping/M+ perspective. They're available to meet the guild's needs while being more practiced at their class or even multiple classes.

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