Revamping m+ rio system

[T-34]

just because it's the best system we currently have doesn't make it a flawless system.
the main problem why people get boosted and stay at a key level way over their capabilities is that their rio can not decay due to performing badly like in a proper mmr system akin to arena rating. how would you fix something like that though?
drop rio whenever a key is not made in time? that's honestly the only reason i could see the timer having any use at all.
dropping rio for leaving prematurely?
while those would fix the problem of people playing way out of their league, it would also breed even more toxicity, due to people thinking they're only held back by their team mates, like in most other coop competitive environments, e.g. arena, csgo, lol, valorant, apex and many more examples.

nevertheless, i think we can agree that rio is necessary, but needs tweaks, can't we?

In practise you have a decay system. A score of 2000 a couple of months ago was worth much more than it is today.
So competent players have to keep improving their score in order to be attractive of people of a similar mindset and skill level.

It is usually quite obvious to spot boosted people. They usually just have one of each dungeon completed on a 15 and often have very few or none "middle-range" keys done.
Inviting people or joining keys- just based on people's score is asking for trouble.

The system could of course be improved with automatic logging so you can check people's dps, usage of interrupts, tranq shot etc. But that doesn't seem realistic, even though that would make even more easy to spot the entitled and boosted people.

Added:
Making more information available about players is a boon to people that respect the time and effort of other people, as it makes it easier to find other non-entitled and respectful people.
Making more information available about players is a great hindrance to the toxic, entitled players that want to trick other people in to carrying them.

[callipygoustp]

Another "lets break a feature that isn't broken" thread. Love em.

[Spiffums]

No it wouldn't and you're insane for thinking it. Everything points completely against what you just said.

Oh yes it would! If there was no depletion of keys in the 10 to 17 range people would be kicking the low dps left and right and restarting. Why go on to finish after the 1st boss if you've got 2 dps doing 7 to 8k overall and one doing 4k........kick the 4k and restart wtih a different pugged in player. You think things are bad now you have no clue how it would be if people weren't "forced" to stick with what they started with.

[Depakote]

How do you fix a system that was meant to be broken?

[Kaver]

Oh yes it would! If there was no depletion of keys in the 10 to 17 range people would be kicking the low dps left and right and restarting. Why go on to finish after the 1st boss if you've got 2 dps doing 7 to 8k overall and one doing 4k........kick the 4k and restart wtih a different pugged in player. You think things are bad now you have no clue how it would be if people weren't "forced" to stick with what they started with.

I don’t get why it’s good that players have to stick with someone who is underperforming. They should never have joined the group in the first place if they are not able to pull their own weight.

[Ange]

Inviting people or joining keys- just based on people's score is asking for trouble.

2k rating for 15's timed and around 100+ 15's by now is pretty mediocre. Pushing people got 100/250-300 for the 20/15 keys times metric, so its not that much to ask for people that cap every week at least 5-10 keys for the vault.

You avoid rerolled chars that might just got rating pushed in a push week and its rare to see toxic people with vault rating and weekly participation for the 10/10.

Going with R.IO by prioritizing finished key participation is the opposite to asking for trouble - its the easiest way to get a group with layed back players, who know what to expect, know how to deal with PUGs and play well enough at average to time a vault key without trouble.

[thunderdragon2]

imo we should just remove the player power from m+ turn it back to challenge mode (optional content) and leave it at that personally im only doing m+ for gear i really dislike timers. i also dislike time wasters you know the 1s i mean those people that leave the moment the timer runs out even tho ur at the last boss because "i wanted it in time" or mah io score despite noting being mention on the title or even better that happens are explicitly putting vault run on the title.

best solution here is just revert it back to CM's let those who care about it do it those that dont can skip it and leave it at that.


and be4 any1 asks i got to 2k and stopped as i had no desire to go any higher

[Sin of Pride]

nope... blizzard need to move away from raid or die mindset... they need to implement more worthwhile content besides raiding... not remove something that you can at least do without having to rely on 19+ people...

What does that look like exactly?

Blizzard has tried... I have to give them that to do so. From the successful mage tower to the moderately successful but to grindy visions to the failed scenarios, warfronts, proving ground, and one or two other pieces of content im sure im missing.

The problem is this modes of content are not really successful comparted to dungeons and raids.

[thunderdragon2]

nope... blizzard need to move away from raid or die mindset... they need to implement more worthwhile content besides raiding... not remove something that you can at least do without having to rely on 19+ people...

yes they do but m+ has been found to not be the answer, they can find nice things out side raiding that doesn't involve spamming the same dungeons endlessly for gear and points for a bad scoring system.

revert m+ back to cm and try a different approach, but alas they wont they are too in love with their esports

[Alroxas]

i also dislike time wasters you know the 1s i mean those people that leave the moment the timer runs out even tho ur at the last boss because "i wanted it in time" or mah io score despite noting being mention on the title or even better that happens are explicitly putting vault run on the title.

Technically the revamp to the M+ score helps mitigate this because a non timed key (as long as it's not too far over the time) still awards some measure of points contributing towards the score.

Like you could be 5 seconds over every dungeon and still get a "good" M+ score. Some don't like this approach but it does alleviate some of the pressures of time it or bust.

Compare this current M+ score version to KSM SL1 where it's you either timed a +15 or not.

- - - Updated - - -

yes they do but m+ has been found to not be the answer,

I'd argue the opposite. Consider dungeons in general prior to M+. Because of their static loot, they became irrelevant very quickly.

Cataclysm xpac is a perfect example: 9 dungeons at launch which was then replaced by 2 dungeons (in 4.1) then by 3 dungeons (in 4.3).

Players stopped doing the first 9 dungeons because why bother for lower ilv loot? You would spam the most current set of dungeons because they had the best loot that you could get via dungeons.

Contrast that to M+ in Legion where every dungeon (minus Violet Hold) was eventually included in the M+ system. Now you're not spamming just the most recent added dungeons but any of the dungeons could be done.

In general, players love loot. So M+ succeeds in providing an near "infinite" loot loop provided the players are good enough to continue to do their keys. And to balance out the repeatability of M+ (in comparison to raids), the End of Dungeon loot is generally lower but the weekly chest (à la Great Vault) still allows for some gear progression.


Now when it comes to the M+ PuG scene... The ultimate issue is that PuG players want to play with equal (or greater) skilled players and not everyone is that good at M+. Sure we could spend the time and look up dungeon logs see if player A is not only good at throughput but also good at survivability and utility but that's an incredibly time consuming affair. Moreover, there are group factors that also need to be consider when evaluating those metrics.

Personally I don't think you could ever come up with a robust enough system to quantify a person performance in a quick way. It would be far easier just gradually build a list of good players you encounter as you PuG through to KSM and add exceptionally good players to your friends list.

This way eventually, you have a pool of players that you can ping quickly whenever you want to run a key.

[Azerate]

No, because:

1) not everyone has low cd interrupts

2) sometimes taking damage is actually the correct thing to do

yes they do but m+ has been found to not be the answer, they can find nice things out side raiding that doesn't involve spamming the same dungeons endlessly for gear and points for a bad scoring system.

revert m+ back to cm and try a different approach, but alas they wont they are too in love with their esports

M+ is some of the most frequently done content in the game right now, lots of people do exclusively that, and a lot of raiders also run m+ a lot during their non-raid time. You are completely detached from reality

[thunderdragon2]

M+ is some of the most frequently done content in the game right now, lots of people do exclusively that, and a lot of raiders also run m+ a lot during their non-raid time. You are completely detached from reality

im not, many people think this game was much better be4 cm became m+

[Depakote]

im not, many people think this game was much better be4 cm became m+

That's because it was.

[Alroxas]

im not, many people think this game was much better be4 cm became m+

Evidence? Because I distinctly remember a lot of folks hating on Cataclysm because after 4.1, there was no point in running the initial launch dungeons (then the same when 4.3 came along). Granted folks also hated on Cataclysm because a good chunk of development happened for non-end game content (aka the leveling processes).

[thunderdragon2]

Evidence? Because I distinctly remember a lot of folks hating on Cataclysm because after 4.1, there was no point in running the initial launch dungeons (then the same when 4.3 came along). Granted folks also hated on Cataclysm because a good chunk of development happened for non-end game content (aka the leveling processes).

i said challenge modes

[T-34]

im not, many people think this game was much better be4 cm became m+

Blizzard clearly thinks otherwise.
135,5 mio characters have time a run in SL season 1 and so far 41 mio chars have timed a run in SL season 2.
If you look at the statistics at raider.io the participation in M+ seems quite stable.

In my anecdotal experience a quite sizeable portion of my friends who don't raid anymore play M+ now instead of outright quitting.

But I must agree with you that M+ doesn't seem to fit the player type that before M+ was used to hide in a bigger raid group. In a M+ the individual responsibility is much higher.
M+ is wonderful for people that play at a level that is appropriate to their skill and who take responsibility and respect the time and effort of their fellow gamer.
M+ must be horrible for those that can't accept their skill level and/or feel entitled to be carried by others, because it is much harder to make people carry you in M+ than in a raid.

Added:
I find M+ to be best thing added to the game and so do all of my friends.
M+ has just made the gap much clearer between those that take responsibility for their in-game experience and those that feel entitled to the time and effort of other people.

Added 2:
I know people for whom a +10 is a challenge, but they don't whine. They play with their friends who are at the same skill level and enjoy the mutual effort to beat a challenge.
The wonderful thing about M+ is that it has a difficulty for any skill level. The trick is to be able to determine and accept one's skill and limitations.

[Relapses]

just because it's the best system we currently have doesn't make it a flawless system.
the main problem why people get boosted and stay at a key level way over their capabilities is that their rio can not decay due to performing badly like in a proper mmr system akin to arena rating. how would you fix something like that though?
drop rio whenever a key is not made in time? that's honestly the only reason i could see the timer having any use at all.
dropping rio for leaving prematurely?
while those would fix the problem of people playing way out of their league, it would also breed even more toxicity, due to people thinking they're only held back by their team mates, like in most other coop competitive environments, e.g. arena, csgo, lol, valorant, apex and many more examples.

nevertheless, i think we can agree that rio is necessary, but needs tweaks, can't we?

If you tie any type of scoring to failing a key you're introducing all kinds of toxic behavior to the equation. This would impact every key pusher from the top to the bottom and would encourage players to be even more picky than they already are. There are clear upsides but this is a situation where you're proposed cure is far, far worse than the disease.

- - - Updated - - -

That's because it was.

You are factually incorrect. M+ has insane levels of engagement that CModes never had. Less than 1% of the playerbase completed CModes while almost every single max level character has run at least one key. It's not even close.

[Depakote]

If you tie any type of scoring to failing a key you're introducing all kinds of toxic behavior to the equation. This would impact every key pusher from the top to the bottom and would encourage players to be even more picky than they already are. There are clear upsides but this is a situation where you're proposed cure is far, far worse than the disease.

- - - Updated - - -



You are factually incorrect. M+ has insane levels of engagement that CModes never had. Less than 1% of the playerbase completed CModes while almost every single max level character has run at least one key. It's not even close.

You can't accuse me of being factually incorrect when you're comparing things that really have nothing to do with each other. Challenge modes were optional. Mythic+ dungeons really aren't if you want to get decent gear unless there's some other way to get gear that I'm not aware of.

[Relapses]

You can't accuse me of being factually incorrect when you're comparing things that really have nothing to do with each other. Challenge modes were optional. Mythic+ dungeons really aren't if you want to get decent gear unless there's some other way to get gear that I'm not aware of.

Bro, I didn't make that comparison. You did when you agreed with a guy who said the game was better when it didn't have M+.

[Depakote]

Bro, I didn't make that comparison. You did when you agreed with a guy who said the game was better when it didn't have M+.

That's because it was. You're the one who tried to compare the two as the same. Try harder.