Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[epigramx]

Why does extent matter? It can only be pay to win once a certain percentage of people do it? Carries being more popular now doesn't change things being pay to win. It wasn't even the token that started that upward trend. It was the timed runs of MoP that started it. WoD garrison money print and timed runs continued it. The token came out 4 months after the launch of WoD so it only helped increase the popularity of carries.

The point was you effectively support Blizzard's bad practices, by effectively derailing the discussion with "but it was still technically pay to win!" when it was extremely less pronounced before the online shop and people being able to boost for gold and buy things in it legally and with the TOS' blessing.

Besides: you can clearly pay a person to play any game in the universe for you so the extend that it is with Blizzard's blessing and how more rampant it is after their blessing is very important.

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You seems to misunderstand the core problem. Boosting is demand driven so if there is a NEED for boost, supply will increase.

That's just objectively wrong. If there is high demand for luxury Tesla cars and you make it easier to get them after it was illegal to get them: then obviously you will see more Tesla on the streets after it became legal to get it (the "Tesla" here is boosting services from people to people).

Besides: as I said to the other Blizzard supporter you can clearly pay a person to play any game in the universe for you so the extend that it is with Blizzard's blessing and how more rampant it is after their blessing is very important.

[Raelbo]

The point was you effectively support Blizzard's bad practices, by effectively derailing the discussion with "but it was still technically pay to win!"

No one is supporting "Blizzard's bad practices". That is a subjective label you're choosing to apply, a label with which many disagree. And no, it was never "technically pay to win". That's the whole point. Players helping other players to achieve things in the game is not pay 2 win. Pay 2 win is about a transaction between the game and the player.

it was extremely less pronounced before the online shop and people being able to boost for gold and buy things in it legally and with the TOS' blessing.

Classic case of correlation vs causation fallacy. These guys are 100% correct, and it is the same thing I said (independently btw), that boosting increased significantly because of the release of new types of content that were well suited to boosting.

And as I clearly recall from the time, Blizzard's "blessing" was the result of people complaining about boosting on the forums. It was already there and quite prevalent. Blizzard simply clarified what was always the case: that paying someone gold in exchange for them helping you out in-game was perfectly ok and always had been.

The only problem was whiny people on their high horses with an irrational hatred of "boosting" wanting to police everyone else. If other players want to boost or get boosted, that is really their business. There is absolutely no need for you or anyone to get involved.

[rhorle]

The point was you effectively support Blizzard's bad practices, by effectively derailing the discussion with "but it was still technically pay to win!" when it was extremely less pronounced before the online shop and people being able to boost for gold and buy things in it legally and with the TOS' blessing.

So it derails the discussion to use the truth? It doesn't matter if it was less then now. It still existed. The percentage of people doing it is not part of the definition of pay to win. Re-writing history so you can call it pay to win now is silly. Blizzard didn't first give their blessing with the token though. That is the "technically the truth" that you keep trying to dismiss because it sinks your entire argument.

Carries started to gain popularity before the token was introduced and your "blizzard gave their blessing" argument. The facts are very important here and picking and choosing which ones to accept is silly.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I don't know what I'm talking about.

On the contrary, I loved WoW, and still hope it can pull itself out of its rut, just like FFXIV did. I doubt it will though.

Do you have anything to say about the state of WoW other than deflecting to FFXIV? This isn't the FFXIV forum so please don't get off topic when the discussion does not naturally flow there.

[Indigenously Abled]

On the contrary, I loved WoW, and still hope it can pull itself out of its rut, just like FFXIV did. I doubt it will though.

Do you have anything to say about the state of WoW other than deflecting to FFXIV? This isn't the FFXIV forum so please don't get off topic when the discussion does not naturally flow there.

Better off ignoring that dude. They're either blind to their own hypocrisy or intentionally goading people with passive aggression and hyperbole.

OT: Here's a thread from yesterday, poster outing themselves for buying a gladiator boost. Not p2w, no sir!

[Relapses]

On the contrary, I loved WoW, and still hope it can pull itself out of its rut, just like FFXIV did. I doubt it will though.

Do you have anything to say about the state of WoW other than deflecting to FFXIV? This isn't the FFXIV forum so please don't get off topic when the discussion does not naturally flow there.

Neither of the posts I made in this thread prior to you quoting me had anything to do with FFXIV. @Doctor Wheelchair Casino quoted a post of mine from another thread. So, uh, it's not me bringing FFXIV into this discussion. My criticism is wholly with your obsession of making sure that nearly every single one of your posts ends with some kind of empty condemnation of WoW or blind, superficial praise of FFXIV. I really don't care if you prefer one game to the other; but I will point out when I notice trends that are counterproductive to any kind of reasonable discussion.

[BattleHammer]

So it derails the discussion to use the truth? It doesn't matter if it was less then now. It still existed. The percentage of people doing it is not part of the definition of pay to win. Re-writing history so you can call it pay to win now is silly. Blizzard didn't first give their blessing with the token though. That is the "technically the truth" that you keep trying to dismiss because it sinks your entire argument.

Carries started to gain popularity before the token was introduced and your "blizzard gave their blessing" argument. The facts are very important here and picking and choosing which ones to accept is silly.

Funny how many ppl here talk about facts but ignore some.

Can you get advantages through money in the game? Yes => P2W elements. You know, facts.

It's not the end of the world because of it, neither will change your current way of playing it.

[rhorle]

Can you get advantages through money in the game? Yes => P2W elements. You know, facts.

The only advantage to be gained with money is the level boost. I have never denied that. Buying gold is not an advantage of power. That is not paying to win. Just as mounts, and all the other cosmetics, are not paying to win. You could always get advantages through money if you include cosmetics (or wealth). The CE for Vanilla included cosmetics that only were obtainable through the CE. The TCG had some BoE items so you could make gold through that.

But very few people will try to argue that the game was Pay to Win from the get go because they apply subjective exclusions and definitions to what is or is not an advantage. It is why advantage is a silly definition and tying it to power is a better thing. Most people didn't even consider the token pay to win until corruption BoEs were implemented. It was with those, and the extreme power for gold, that caused most of these people to cry foul of the token. Weird right? It wasn't an issue until it became something they found unfair.

[BattleHammer]

The only advantage to be gained with money is the level boost. I have never denied that. Buying gold is not an advantage of power. That is not paying to win. Just as mounts, and all the other cosmetics, are not paying to win. You could always get advantages through money if you include cosmetics (or wealth). The CE for Vanilla included cosmetics that only were obtainable through the CE. The TCG had some BoE items so you could make gold through that.

But very few people will try to argue that the game was Pay to Win from the get go because they apply subjective exclusions and definitions to what is or is not an advantage. It is why advantage is a silly definition and tying it to power is a better thing. Most people didn't even consider the token pay to win until corruption BoEs were implemented. It was with those, and the extreme power for gold, that caused most of these people to cry foul of the token. Weird right? It wasn't an issue until it became something they found unfair.

This is your perception, there's no backing to it (same could be said the other way). The thing is, the token does allow you to access easy gold to purchase either player driven services, boe gear or consumables. This along with the paid blizzard boost give you a headstart over other players, no you don't get anything over mythic players for example, but you start way ahead of other people allowing you to get to the end line way faster/easier (advantage?).

[Cthulhu 2020]

Neither of the posts I made in this thread prior to you quoting me had anything to do with FFXIV. @Doctor Wheelchair Casino quoted a post of mine from another thread. So, uh, it's not me bringing FFXIV into this discussion. My criticism is wholly with your obsession of making sure that nearly every single one of your posts ends with some kind of empty condemnation of WoW or blind, superficial praise of FFXIV. I really don't care if you prefer one game to the other; but I will point out when I notice trends that are counterproductive to any kind of reasonable discussion.

Ah so you're a "call out" poster. Good to know you have nothing of value to contribute to the discussion.

Yes, this is the general WoW forum where we talk about WoW. What would you like me to do, talk about the conflict in the middle east? My own opinion on the matter is valid and I don't see you calling out people sucking Blizzard's dicks non stop so perhaps check yourself and stop being a contrarian for contrarian's sake?

Honestly the only thing that actually bothers me about you is being a contrarian poster taking the avatar of one of the best Xenogears characters, whom you could in no way measure up to. You're not witty or smart for your posts, nor do you ever add anything insightful, you're just looking for petty fights.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

To a degree it absolutely is. You can buy gold directly from Blizzard. And you can use that gold to buy high end boe and pay for carries for high end content.

[Relapses]

Honestly the only thing that actually bothers me about you is being a contrarian poster taking the avatar of one of the best Xenogears characters, whom you could in no way measure up to. You're not witty or smart for your posts, nor do you ever add anything insightful, you're just looking for petty fights.

This is one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I think I've ever seen on this forum. Thanks dude.

edit: To address your previous points... I've already told you that it's not your opinion alone that bothers me. It's the fact that you have to inject some kind of anti-WoW sentiment in each of your posts. You said that people who enjoy WoW shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it without first acknowledging that the token has "ruined" the game. That's ridiculous. Nobody should think like that. But apparently that's just Tuesday for you.

[Daymanmb]

How about we turn this around. Do you believe that the average player is unable to get boosted because of tokens?

The fact is that boosting is an activity practiced by only a small fraction of the playerbase. You have no evidence that it is only, or even mostly people buying gold with tokens that are getting boosted. I have little doubt that some players buy gold with tokens in order to get boosted. But I also know for a fact that many people who get boosted do so without tokens being involved. In fact these people spend some of their gold to buy tokens for gametime.

The fact is that the gold to buy boosts exists with or without tokens. Boosts would therefore happen with or without tokens. For the average player it makes zero difference who is buying those boosts.

As for your assertion about the explosion of boosting services, I think, firstly, that you need to get off your high horse. WoW is an MMO game. The ability to help and be helped by others is an integral part of the game. Boosting is not a crime and never was. So get over it. Yes, I can agree that advertising spam is annoying, but that is a side issue.

Secondly, I don't believe it is fair to 'blame' tokens for boosting. You're simply observing a correlation with no insights into the causation. For a start, boosting has always existed, but the content that people wanted to boosted in was far more limited. It was M+, a relatively new feature that really drove the demand for boosting. Another thing that had a noticeable effect was when Blizzard clarified that boosting for gold was totally ok, a position they were quiet on for many years.



That is, at best, speculation on your part, but more likely just plain old BS. Back in BfA while waiting for one of the rare spawns, a bunch of people mounted up on our brutosaurs. Speaking to those guys, only 1 of about 15 of us used tokens to buy it.

Furthermore, of the 8 or so in my guild, I know that all were bought by players who made their money in game. The very idea of spending around $400 for a single mount was just ludicrous to most of us.

Lastly, if you looked at the token price around the time of the brutosaur, there was little indication that it had any significant effect on the sale of tokens.




You cannot just make a claim like that without providing evidence. You would have to know how the token has affected the spending habits, not only of those buying gold, but of those selling gold too. You would also need to know what percentage of the market these players constitute.

I reckon that the vast majority of trade going on between players has absolutely nothing to do with tokens. While I have little doubt that the token has been enabler for some players to participate in the market (which is a good thing), there is zero reason to believe that it has had any kind of significant effect on the market. Raiders have always spent gold on buying consumables and materials. The existence of the token is not going to change that. Maybe some would stopped bothering with making the gold themselves and reverted to tokens, but their spending habits would have been unchanged.

The kind of effects you want to believe the token has on the game are what would happen if Blizzard started selling gold directly into the game. The token does not do that. It simply facilitates the transfer of gold already in the game between players without adding any new gold to the world.



And you can keep repeating this rhetoric as long as you want, but until you can provide a properly reasoned argument, backed up by actual facts that are relevant to the argument, you're just talking nonsense.



False. The fact that gold is transferred between players is precisely the reason why tokens don't affect the game badly at all.



What is sad is that some people choose to attack a system that is actually good for everyone because they're too ignorant to know better, and too stubborn to listen to good sense.

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Can you give any examples of actual players who, by virtue of tokens, have more gold than the AH barons on any given realm? I thought not.



Your efforts to oversimplify this discussion is why you're not seeing the reality of it. The simple reality that you fail to acknowledge is that all of the richest (as in gold) players in this game acquired their gold in-game without tokens. I have never met someone in this game who got rich (in gold) from selling tokens.



You see, asking me if I am out of my god damn mind for stating *reality* simply demonstrates how out of touch you are and why you lack the basic grounding to be participating in the discussion.

Let me be clear. If 300K was as difficult to make as you would have us believe, then no one would be spending that much gold to buy them. The price of tokens is probably the best indicator of how difficult gold is to make in the game because it is literally determined by the price people are prepared to both buy and sell it at.



Stop throwing down these retarded challenges as if they actually mean something. The fact that people are spending 300K on tokens, for a measly $13 of currency usable only on Blizzard products, is the most honest indication of how easy/hard it is to make gold in this gold. Stop acting as if tokens are the only way in which any player can ever hope to get enough gold to do anything of meaning in this game.



Dude, my assertion was in respect of where players who are boosted got their gold, not whether boosting happens. Again, you're not answering to what I am saying because you lack an actual argument.



And if you play the game normally you're ahead of those who buy tokens. What is your point? That tokens allow you to get ahead of the worst players in WoW, who are only in that position because they simply can't be bothered to try? Who the hell cares? They are utterly irrelevant.

p2w is when paying becomes mandatory in order to compete. And that is certainly not the case in WoW.




That is an entirely inadequate and unsatisfactory qualifier for determining if the feature is p2w.

For a feature to qualify as p2w there must exist an inextricable association between paying and winning. Now you are welcome to define "winning" however you want, but unless paying is necessary to achieve that achieve that, at least without significant effort, then the feature can not be called p2w.

And in so long as that the gold obtained via tokens remains linked to another player who is selling that gold, tokens can never become a requirement of achieving anything in this game. This is dictated by 2 factors:

1) There will always be other players who have managed to acquire at least that amount of gold (and realistically a lot more) to be able to buy the token off the AH.
2) Only a small portion of the of the playerbase will ever be able to use tokens as a means of acquiring gold - because at the other end you need players to supply the gold. And the more people try to buy gold with tokens, the less gold they will get.

It's "simple" as that.



That is a non-argument. We have no evidence that they do either. Again I'll say it: Resorting to that level of argumentation says a lot about the weakness of your argument.

Look, obviously if it came out that Blizzard were selling more tokens than they were putting onto the AH, then I would agree that this is p2w. But it should be pretty clear that my argument applies to tokens operating as advertised.

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NO. That is what YOU are guilty of.

Where are you getting your definition from anyway? I got mine by looking at sites like the Urban dictionary and by reading up on the history of pay 2 win. It seems however that everyone on MMO Champion believes it is their prerogative to come up with their own definitions that have no relation or grounding in the practice as used in the gaming industry at all.



Oh I could say plenty of negative things about WoW. In fact it seems that you just refuse to say anything positive about the game.

Nothing in my argument has anything to even do with my views or feelings on the game. That is your bias, not mine. My argument is clearly grounded in a strict and accurate understanding of what p2w means and then trying to assess whether the token in WoW meets that definition. Your argument on the other hand seems entirely about panel-beating the definition of p2w to fit the token.

I have said this before in the "is WoW p2w" debate that I believe a lot of people want to try and argue that WoW is p2w because of the perception that p2w is bad. And yet they will then proceed to come up with a definition for p2w that is lacking in all the attributes that makes being p2w bad in the first place. It's pretty disingenuous tbh

Holy fuck...

[Cthulhu 2020]

This is one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I think I've ever seen on this forum. Thanks dude.

I mean, thanks for proving my point I guess?




Anyway, on topic, before WoW token if you asked players what pay to win was, they'd tell you being able to pay real life cash for gear, titles, or other achievements that needed to be earned in game.

If you asked players what pay to win was years before that, they'd tell you that being able to pay IRL money for anything in game that wasn't game time. That included gold and cosmetics and mounts.

It seems Blizzard has been able to effectively normalize pay to win in their game that players will defend WoW token no matter what. Apparently to the few remaining WoW stans out there, a game is only pay to win if you can buy gear that's above what can be earned in the game. Which basically means that every chinese gacha game is no longer pay to win, considering free players can put in time and effort to earn rewards that whales can buy.

[rhorle]

This is your perception, there's no backing to it (same could be said the other way).

It isn't perception. The vocal complaints about the token grew when corruption BoEs were added to the game. Because it offered immense power for gold. Buying player driven services, boe gear, or consumables with gold is not "winning". That is a normal part of the game. Buying gold only gets you access but does not provide anything. Buying gold is a micro transaction.

[Relapses]

I mean, thanks for proving my point I guess?

Let me clue you in: I'm a person, not an avatar. But you do have good taste in JRPGs so I won't hate on you there.

Anyway, on topic, before WoW token if you asked players what pay to win was, they'd tell you being able to pay real life cash for gear, titles, or other achievements that needed to be earned in game.

If you asked players what pay to win was years before that, they'd tell you that being able to pay IRL money for anything in game that wasn't game time. That included gold and cosmetics and mounts.

It seems Blizzard has been able to effectively normalize pay to win in their game that players will defend WoW token no matter what. Apparently to the few remaining WoW stans out there, a game is only pay to win if you can buy gear that's above what can be earned in the game. Which basically means that every chinese gacha game is no longer pay to win, considering free players can put in time and effort to earn rewards that whales can buy.

Whales and P2W aren't what's holding WoW back. This 130+ page thread about the semantics of the phrase P2W is proof that not very many people really even agree with what the phrase means, much less its impact on the game. There's a common "it's bad" sentiment among people who aren't playing but when asked to elaborate the usual response is "you can buy a Mythic carry with Blizzard gold." Nobody's doing that, though. (Or if they are, they're dumb as rocks.) Those Mythic carries are bought the same way carries were bought before the token existed: Through Chinese boosting services. (They're on Discords now but it's no coincidence most of the big Discords have Chinese names.) Anyway, it's suffice to say that a lot of the problems people have with the token aren't the token itself... but rather shallow rebukes of the downsides of good 'ol fashioned capitalism. And the latter isn't going away any time soon.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Let me clue you in: I'm a person, not an avatar. But you do have good taste in JRPGs so I won't hate on you there.




Whales and P2W aren't what's holding WoW back. This 130+ page thread about the semantics of the phrase P2W is proof that not very many people really even agree with what the phrase means, much less its impact on the game. There's a common "it's bad" sentiment among people who aren't playing but when asked to elaborate the usual response is "you can buy a Mythic carry with Blizzard gold." Nobody's doing that, though. (Or if they are, they're dumb as rocks.) Those Mythic carries are bought the same way carries were bought before the token existed: Through Chinese boosting services. (They're on Discords now but it's no coincidence most of the big Discords have Chinese names.) Anyway, it's suffice to say that a lot of the problems people have with the token aren't the token itself... but rather shallow rebukes of the downsides of good 'ol fashioned capitalism. And the latter isn't going away any time soon.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I'd almost written you off but this is actually a nice contribution to a discussion.

Yes, boosting is done more or less the same as it always has, at least on a surface level. However in the past, gold buying and boosting carried the risk of getting banned. A big risk too, at least until relatively recently. Had one dude in our guild who went through 4 accounts because he just couldn't not buy gold and carries. And he wasn't the only one. Before, it was something Blizzard policed. It made it so that far less people were willing to do it because they didn't want to risk their account and all their work going up in smoke. Now that gold buying is officially sanctioned, it's a really common practice. On top of that, it's not even Chinese farmers that do carries. The boosting community is a ton of actual NA and EU players. Bellular did a good video on it, but it's by no means comprehensive of the boosting scene.

Sure, good gamers might think boosting for mythic kills and gear is dumb, but a lot of people are too intimidated by the thought of joining a group. That's one point that Bellular made that a lot of people who boost claim. They want to go in, play the game, do the content, and not have to deal with guilds, rostering, meeting requirements, consumables, flasks, grinding, etc. So they buy boosts. They get invited, get taken through the content, get the loot and the achievements, and boom. It's become exceedingly common over the last couple of years.

You might believe that it's no different than before, but the fact that it's officially sanctioned by Blizzard with no risk of getting banned means that far more people are going to take advantage of it than before. And as boosting becomes more prevalent, the less meaning those achievements have, at least in the setting of an MMO. See, a lot of people only care about their own experience and nobody else's - apparently. But it's been a long standing thing that in MMOs people like to compare themselves to the progress and achievements of others. Many players don't, but a ton do. To many, if you're not competing with others or comparing your accomplishments and trophies (gear) then you may as well be playing a single player game.

[Lochton]

To a degree it absolutely is. You can buy gold directly from Blizzard. And you can use that gold to buy high end boe and pay for carries for high end content.

Eh, you do not buy gold directly from Blizzard, though.

[epigramx]

boosting increased significantly because of the release of new types of content that were well suited to boosting.

That makes no sense. In cata it was extremely suitable for boosting because the best guilds could carry one to two people at least.
This discussion is silly when some of you completely ignore that the shop now can make boosters buy ALL blizzard products.

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Re-writing history so you can call it pay to win now

This entire framework of reasoning - to put ionto focus the definition of pay to win itself - is silly because I could play devil's advocate and tell you that everything is pay to win technically since I could pay someone to play for you and you would be watching tv pretending your avatar is playing but you did it with money and it was any game that exists.

That's why the definition itself is irrevenant compared to the extend of it. The fact is the boosters can now use the shop to buy everything that Blizzard sells and that is something you and others here ignore which is a gigantic factor of what's going on here.

[Mardux]

I'm not even sure what you are trying to say. PvE is always competing against the computer. That is the "everyone" part. Leveling, or group play, is always against the computer. You seem to be implying that nothing can be pay to win unless it is PvP.

A level boost is paying to win. Buying gear would be paying to win. Buying gold is not paying to win. You never actually made commentary on those things.

TIL: The Race to World First doesnt exist.

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That makes no sense. In cata it was extremely suitable for boosting because the best guilds could carry one to two people at least.
This discussion is silly when some of you completely ignore that the shop now can make boosters buy ALL blizzard products.

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This entire framework of reasoning - to put ionto focus the definition of pay to win itself - is silly because I could play devil's advocate and tell you that everything is pay to win technically since I could pay someone to play for you and you would be watching tv pretending your avatar is playing but you did it with money and it was any game that exists.

That's why the definition itself is irrevenant compared to the extend of it. The fact is the boosters can now use the shop to buy everything that Blizzard sells and that is something you and others here ignore which is a gigantic factor of what's going on here.

I pay a subscription fee, therefore the game is Pay-2-win.