Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Ekis]

Eh, you do not buy gold directly from Blizzard, though.

While true, let's be mindful of the fact that Blizzard controls the amount of gold people could theoretically farm AND facilitates the trading of gold (enough to make a profit off of it while really not doing anything).

Yes, they've removed themselves from the step of actually buying it directly from them, however they could at any time change the amount of gold pumped into the game via quest rewards/loot drops. And while there has been times where the demand for WoW tokens outpaced the supply, we wouldn't really know if, say, a Blizzard exec or someone with vested interest could just create a character, generate some gold or WoW token out of thin air and simply make things available since we're not privy to such information other than what they'd tell us.

Not saying they would or are in fact doing this, but given that they have ultimate control over both supply and demand (it is their product after all), who's to say whether they have a hand in it or not?

I'd still refer to it as a bit of pay-to-win (or pay for advantage) but that's just because of the nature of the beast when it comes to dealing with tradable currency. Whether it's directly from Blizzard or from the players themselves, it includes a transaction of power with currency that's now purchasable for real life money.

[Lochton]

While true, let's be mindful of the fact that Blizzard controls the amount of gold people could theoretically farm AND facilitates the trading of gold (enough to make a profit off of it while really not doing anything).

Yes, they've removed themselves from the step of actually buying it directly from them, however they could at any time change the amount of gold pumped into the game via quest rewards/loot drops. And while there has been times where the demand for WoW tokens outpaced the supply, we wouldn't really know if, say, a Blizzard exec or someone with vested interest could just create a character, generate some gold or WoW token out of thin air and simply make things available since we're not privy to such information other than what they'd tell us.

Not saying they would or are in fact doing this, but given that they have ultimate control over both supply and demand (it is their product after all), who's to say whether they have a hand in it or not?

I'd still refer to it as a bit of pay-to-win (or pay for advantage) but that's just because of the nature of the beast when it comes to dealing with tradable currency. Whether it's directly from Blizzard or from the players themselves, it includes a transaction of power with currency that's now purchasable for real life money.

I have mostly signed myself out of the discussion but it gets tiresome to see people claim that you could buy gold from Blizzard when it is from other players by trading game-time with them, Blizzard just facilitates and makes it safer, they set the price but does not control the supply or demand. They've removed illegal gold selling, illegal boosting, and illegal game-time trading by adding the token, a problem that was rampaging before the token.

[rhorle]

TIL: The Race to World First doesnt exist.

So the race to be the first in the world to beat the computer is not competing against the computer?

[BattleHammer]

I have mostly signed myself out of the discussion but it gets tiresome to see people claim that you could buy gold from Blizzard when it is from other players by trading game-time with them, Blizzard just facilitates and makes it safer, they set the price but does not control the supply or demand. They've removed illegal gold selling, illegal boosting, and illegal game-time trading by adding the token, a problem that was rampaging before the token.

Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.

[arkanon]

Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.

Just remember, there are people in this very thread claiming that even in a hypothetical scenario where Blizzard sell you a tier token for cash, and you trade that tier token to a vendor for a BIS tier item, that to them is still not P2W because you dont buy the GEAR from Blizzard, you buy the TOKEN, and the token doesnt grant you any power.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Just remember, there are people in this very thread claiming that even in a hypothetical scenario where Blizzard sell you a tier token for cash, and you trade that tier token to a vendor for a BIS tier item, that to them is still not P2W because you dont buy the GEAR from Blizzard, you buy the TOKEN, and the token doesnt grant you any power.

It goes even farther than that. Many people in this thread believe that unless you yourself are putting in the work to clear a tier with your own raid group, then it's not "winning". "Winning" to them is putting in that work, and they don't care if other people are buying clears. Blizz could sell BIS gear for a tier on the shop and these people would still claim that it's not pay to win because their "winning" is earning their gear.

By all of their definitions, chinese gacha games are not pay to win, since even though whales can buy tons of gear, free players can earn that gear, so the "earning it" part being available means it's not pay to win.

[Chain Chungus]

This is why the mage tower appearances should come back (and all other FOMO removed stuff). People could just pay someone to play their characters and unlock it for them. There is no prestige to something purchased and not earned.

[Elbob]

This is why the mage tower appearances should come back (and all other FOMO removed stuff). People could just pay someone to play their characters and unlock it for them. There is no prestige to something purchased and not earned.

So because some people break the ToS, limited duration items shouldnt exist??? ...wut?

Like atleast come up with a half good reason for your argument.

[valax]

Nope , it's mostly pay not to play.

[Chain Chungus]

So because some people break the ToS, limited duration items shouldnt exist??? ...wut?

Like atleast come up with a half good reason for your argument.

Should we allow steroids at the Olympics? Did those people really earn their medals if they cheated? Should we reward that kind of behavior with "prestige?"

[Relapses]

Should we allow steroids at the Olympics? Did those people really earn their medals if they cheated? Should we reward that kind of behavior with "prestige?"

What on earth does that have to do with anything this thread is discussing?

[arkanon]

Should we allow steroids at the Olympics? Did those people really earn their medals if they cheated? Should we reward that kind of behavior with "prestige?"

No, we shouldn't, but we also don't go back to the 1987 Olympics, and say "bob was found guilty of PED use, so now anyone and everyone can get a gold medal for the 1987 Olympics"

[Lochton]

Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.

Yes, Blizzard takes a cut in you not getting fucked over like people used to be by 3rd party groups. Blizzard sells you game-time/currency, nothing more. You can choose to sell it, and earn gold from another player. Stating that you get the gold from the company would mean that they are generating the gold for you, which they are not, another person is, by grinding, farming, auction house playing, whatever.

Just remember, there are people in this very thread claiming that even in a hypothetical scenario where Blizzard sell you a tier token for cash, and you trade that tier token to a vendor for a BIS tier item, that to them is still not P2W because you dont buy the GEAR from Blizzard, you buy the TOKEN, and the token doesnt grant you any power.

A purchased token for acquiring equipment from a vendor is NOT the same as the current token which you literally need another player to cash in on.

- - - Updated - - -

It goes even farther than that. Many people in this thread believe that unless you yourself are putting in the work to clear a tier with your own raid group, then it's not "winning". "Winning" to them is putting in that work, and they don't care if other people are buying clears. Blizz could sell BIS gear for a tier on the shop and these people would still claim that it's not pay to win because their "winning" is earning their gear.

By all of their definitions, chinese gacha games are not pay to win, since even though whales can buy tons of gear, free players can earn that gear, so the "earning it" part being available means it's not pay to win.

Now you are just being willfully mocking and silly. Your example is Pay2Win due to the ability to gain equipment at (very commonly extremely) increased level than the average player via methods directly supplied by the company.

- - - Updated - - -

This is why the mage tower appearances should come back (and all other FOMO removed stuff). People could just pay someone to play their characters and unlock it for them. There is no prestige to something purchased and not earned.

You mean, this is why it shouldn't? Honestly, limited items should still be limited. If you miss out, you miss out. Demanding things you miss out on is like demanding the Scarab Lord title added back to be obtained because you weren't there when you could.

[Ekis]

Yes, Blizzard takes a cut in you not getting fucked over like people used to be by 3rd party groups. Blizzard sells you game-time/currency, nothing more. You can choose to sell it, and earn gold from another player. Stating that you get the gold from the company would mean that they are generating the gold for you, which they are not, another person is, by grinding, farming, auction house playing, whatever.

Again, the "grinding, farming, AH playing, etc." is also within the control of Blizzard. They aren't directly giving people gold, but they also could make quest gold rewards and loot drops 1c if they so chose, driving down (or possibly up temporarily) the WoW token gold price. One incentivizes the other in this case with Blizzard coming out on top (You'll likely spend money on a subscription at some point to farm the gold to get "free" game-time, or you'll spend money that Blizzard actually gets regardless since the currency one could gain from selling it is only usuable within Battle.net or WoW)

They control the means of how such a thing proliferates through the community, whether they have a direct hand in it is really comes down how you see it. Blizzard may not give the gold directly, but they do control both its supply and demand and could interfere if they felt it was necessary.

[rhorle]

No, we shouldn't, but we also don't go back to the 1987 Olympics, and say "bob was found guilty of PED use, so now anyone and everyone can get a gold medal for the 1987 Olympics"

Olympic medals can be stripped after the fact. While it isn't as long as 1987 they did strip a medal ten years after the fact in one instance. The long gaps come from people that were stripped of medals but later reinstated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Olympic_medals

[Lochton]

Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.

Again, the "grinding, farming, AH playing, etc." is also within the control of Blizzard. They aren't directly giving people gold, but they also could make quest gold rewards and loot drops 1c if they so chose, driving down (or possibly up temporarily) the WoW token gold price. One incentivizes the other in this case with Blizzard coming out on top (You'll likely spend money on a subscription at some point to farm the gold to get "free" game-time, or you'll spend money that Blizzard actually gets regardless since the currency one could gain from selling it is only usuable within Battle.net or WoW)

They control the means of how such a thing proliferates through the community, whether they have a direct hand in it is really comes down how you see it. Blizzard may not give the gold directly, but they do control both its supply and demand and could interfere if they felt it was necessary.

But Blizzard has a set reward scheme, and the price of the token is confirmed to be supply and demand, something that Blizzard is not controlling, nor are they controlling the need for another human being to get out working to obtain the gold. If you try to implement the fact that Blizzard made the game, and controls the design, then I'd guess the discussion of P2W and the likes wouldn't exist with your description, for it would be a common thing. The only interference they can do is to stop selling the token, even then, they cannot turn it off instantly as the current tokens on the market would need to be reimbursed, consumed, or sold first.

There is no need to belittle another human being's work on trying to play the game by stating that Blizzard controls it anyways, so what you gain, earn, achieve is just Blizzard's doing, and not your own.

[Relapses]

They control the means of how such a thing proliferates through the community, whether they have a direct hand in it is really comes down how you see it. Blizzard may not give the gold directly, but they do control both its supply and demand and could interfere if they felt it was necessary.

We have no proof that Blizzard changes the supply or demand of the tokens. The single balance Blizzard has put in place is the fact that the token isn't able to rise or fall more than 3% in an hour. Also, there was a point back in 2018 in Legion where EU realms ran out of tokens so that would indicate to me that they're a finite resource. Though every time I bring that up in this thread somebody says, "yeah WELL that's what they want you to think dude," and dismisses this point entirely. /shrug

[Ekis]

We have no proof that Blizzard changes the supply or demand of the tokens. The single balance Blizzard has put in place is the fact that the token isn't able to rise or fall more than 3% in an hour. Also, there was a point back in 2018 in Legion where EU realms ran out of tokens so that would indicate to me that they're a finite resource. Though every time I bring that up in this thread somebody says, "yeah WELL that's what they want you to think dude," and dismisses this point entirely. /shrug

Of course we have no proof. We have no way to prove either side other than what they say so arguing in favor of either side is pretty stupid, don't you think?

And let's be real, it's not some kind of limited resource that can't be mined or something that disappears once used. It's a bunch of code that they could change right now if it pleases them. To pretend that it is would be about as folly as someone saying they totally manipulate it.

All you have is their word. All I'm saying is they ultimately control it and could change at the flip of a switch. This isn't dismissing that point as both points can exist and one does not take away from the other, especially since we don't know.

- - - Updated - - -

But Blizzard has a set reward scheme, and the price of the token is confirmed to be supply and demand, something that Blizzard is not controlling, nor are they controlling the need for another human being to get out working to obtain the gold. If you try to implement the fact that Blizzard made the game, and controls the design, then I'd guess the discussion of P2W and the likes wouldn't exist with your description, for it would be a common thing. The only interference they can do is to stop selling the token, even then, they cannot turn it off instantly as the current tokens on the market would need to be reimbursed, consumed, or sold first.

There is no need to belittle another human being's work on trying to play the game by stating that Blizzard controls it anyways, so what you gain, earn, achieve is just Blizzard's doing, and not your own.

They could also generate gold from thin air. It's well within their power if they felt the need to do so, such as the case of giving people back their lost gold and gear during the days of people's accounts getting hacked. I'm not saying they are or are not doing anything, but within the scope of their power and the limited visibility we as outsiders have, the only thing we have going to somewhat prove is their word of them saying they aren't interfering.

Nobody's belittling anybody's work here. But acting as if it's not a sanctioned P2W element is a bit disingenuous as well. The game is both play-to-win and pay-to-win, some people prefer to do the work, others prefer to pay for it. This is coming from a guy who actually sold Mythic boosts.

EDIT: To iterate, from my standpoint, is that WoW has always been both pay-to-win and play-to-win. The only difference between how things are now and how things were back before the WoW token was implemented was that using real money to purchase in-game currency, items, and services were bannable under the Terms of Service. Now, you have a legal (meaning within the ToS) way to purchase things. Buying boosts and gold back then was part of the seedy underbelly black market of WoW that most people did not want to risk doing but that also kept things relatively cheap and low due to its nature. Now, because they're a sanctioned way of doing so, it is the only reason why it's so rampant to the point that trade chat nowadays is used more for selling carries than it is selling in-game items as an alternative to the AH.

[lolmmofuture]

yes its pretty simple

it has wow token which is 100% p2w

and im also of the minority that beleives cosmetics are also p2w , essentially anything behind a paywall (subscription is not really the same) is technically p2w, not everything has to be combat related...
but idgaf anymore, sorry, not sorry.

[arkanon]

Olympic medals can be stripped after the fact. While it isn't as long as 1987 they did strip a medal ten years after the fact in one instance. The long gaps come from people that were stripped of medals but later reinstated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Olympic_medals

Yes, and if you read what I'm saying, I'm cool with that part and agree with it. What they don't do is open up the same medals to an entirely new group of athlete's, some of whom didn't even compete at the games.