Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[TheRevenantHero]

137 pages of the same people doing mental gymnastics to avoid admitting WoW is p2w but will jump at the opportunity to call every other mmo p2w for doing the exact same shit Blizzard is doing. I really don't understand it at all.

[Chain Chungus]

Yes, and if you read what I'm saying, I'm cool with that part and agree with it. What they don't do is open up the same medals to an entirely new group of athlete's, some of whom didn't even compete at the games.

The point is, you can't have prestigious FOMO content in a game that allows people to buy runs or pay someone to play their character. It's not a real accomplishment if some people just cheat their way through. Which means the entire concept of FOMO content does not work when paired with the WoW token.

Most boosting is about gaining some limited time reward. The biggest offender is AOTC. Most people just buy that with token gold to get the mount. You'll see nonstop advertising of run after run after run right up until the deadline for AOTC.

How can it be justified to lock that content forever, based on some idea that people "achieved" something by boosting, if it isn't a true achievement at all? Even if only 10% of people boosted through AOTC (probably more like 60-70% of people), it would still invalidate any idea of "I accomplished something difficult" for everyone else. Its "prestige" is tainted, undermining the idea of FOMO rewards in the process.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Eh, you do not buy gold directly from Blizzard, though.

No? So buying tokens and selling them for gold isn't buying gold?

[rhorle]

Yes, and if you read what I'm saying, I'm cool with that part and agree with it. What they don't do is open up the same medals to an entirely new group of athlete's, some of whom didn't even compete at the games.

Hasn't WoW been doing that from the start though by keeping old content, and old drops, open for anyone to get? Those prestigious things you cleared Mythic raids for can now be solo'd by someone who didn't even compete at the time you did.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Now you are just being willfully mocking and silly. Your example is Pay2Win due to the ability to gain equipment at (very commonly extremely) increased level than the average player via methods directly supplied by the company.

Not at all, this is literally the argument that several people have made at me now in favor of the WoW token and boosting. That even though you can buy basically anything you want in the game with real cash (as long as you go through a couple of steps to get there) then that does not count as "winning" nor does it compromise the integrity of the game because the REAL reward is the feeling of earning it yourself. I've been legitimately told by people that it doesn't matter if someone swiped has the same gear, achievements, mounts, etc. as them.

It may not matter to them, but in the overall picture of what an MMO is, it matters a whole lot. When people feel their achievements are being cheapened by a plastic card swipe, they leave the game. I've said this numerous times, if you guys want to bury your head in the sand and let WoW lose even more than the 60% of the playerbase it's already lost, be my guest. Continue to defend Blizzard having a cozy relationship with boosters.

You can pay real money to get equipment in the game. Does it matter whether it's from other players carrying you or from the cash shop? It certainly doesn't make a difference, considering it's |Money in -> Equipment out| AND THE ENTIRE PROCESS IS SANCTIONED BY BLIZZARD even if the boosting hustle is run by players. Don't try to pretend the gear being bought directly from the company store or from another player is some kind of important nuance. It's the company sanctioning gold buying, and it's the company who is the only one receiving actual money out of these transactions. Think about it. Really. Just turn on your brain for half a second.

It's simply Chinese gacha pay to win garbage with an extra step to make players feel better about the systems pretty much having the same spending incentive and reward pipe.

[crusadernero]

The point is, you can't have prestigious FOMO content in a game that allows people to buy runs or pay someone to play their character. It's not a real accomplishment if some people just cheat their way through. Which means the entire concept of FOMO content does not work when paired with the WoW token.

Most boosting is about gaining some limited time reward. The biggest offender is AOTC. Most people just buy that with token gold to get the mount. You'll see nonstop advertising of run after run after run right up until the deadline for AOTC.

How can it be justified to lock that content forever, based on some idea that people "achieved" something by boosting, if it isn't a true achievement at all? Even if only 10% of people boosted through AOTC (probably more like 60-70% of people), it would still invalidate any idea of "I accomplished something difficult" for everyone else. Its "prestige" is tainted, undermining the idea of FOMO rewards in the process.

Blizzard does it this way to make sure people always buys wow tokens regulary, especially when new content arrives. And yes, most hard earned achivments means nothing, but they serve the purpose of enticing people to get boosted.

Hide cool rewards behind certain achivs = people buy token.


It would be awesome to see what would happen with wow token and the boosting services if Blizzard suddenly decided to drop m+, mythic raiding and keep with LFR+normal mode raiding & HC dungeons. Were most content was considered easy enough for most players. No more titles, mounts or gear hidden behind harder content. Its just there for everyone to collect. The only ones who could cry would be the few % doing high m+ keys & mythic raiding.

[epigramx]

I pay a subscription fee, therefore the game is Pay-2-win.

Yes: that would be another irrelevant definition. You're trying to disagree with me but the funny thing is my argument is precisely that the definition itself is unimportant What is important is to not forget the the shop now sells ALL blizzard products with gold and sells electronic money with gold because whoever forgets that or pretends to forget that is misdirecting everyone away from the biggest reason boosting is so rampant to the point that all /2 channels in the entire game are unusable for the last 2-3 years at least even on medium sized realms.

[rhorle]

Yes: that would be another irrelevant definition. You're trying to disagree with me but the funny thing is my argument is precisely that the definition itself is unimportant What is important is to not forget the the shop now sells ALL blizzard products with gold and sells electronic money with gold because whoever forgets that or pretends to forget that is misdirecting everyone away from the biggest reason boosting is so rampant to the point that all /2 channels in the entire game are unusable for the last 2-3 years at least even on medium sized realms.

The definition of a term is never irrelevant. That is the entire reason why definitions exists. Only the level boost from the shop is "pay to win". The rest are cosmetics and are irrelevant to character power. Are they micro transactions? Yes. But the term "pay to win" is not a catch all for micro transactions. Or a catch all for "things I don't like that are sold for money".

Boosts are everywhere in the game because they are popular and M+ allows people to be boosted for rewards. As has been pointed out here before they started to grow in popularity before the token was introduced to the game. The token helped grow that popularity but pointing to the token as the cause is silly. Because it ignores the game systems that encouraged it even before the token existed.

[Dhrizzle]

I pay a subscription fee, therefore the game is Pay-2-win.

Expansions are the ultimate p2w feature. For £30-40 I get access to 10 levels and content with better gear. No-one can match my character's power unless they pay the same.

[epigramx]

The definition of a term is never irrelevant.

Know the phrase "playing with words"? After a point we know very well what pay to win is and how far it can be stretched (it can be "pay to win" to just have a better computer or ping or in another definition it can be "pay to win" only if you directly pay Blizzard with a credit card to advertise your name on TV) so the point is how far it has gone and not how any random person defines it because that's just playing with words.

The rest of your message is burying its head in the sand; the raiding gametype is almost exactly the same since TBC in terms of allowing carrying a couple of people by a very good guild; dismissing as unimportant the fact the shop can make people's gold able to buy all Activision Products including all WoW products is pretty much burying head in sand.

[rhorle]

Know the phrase "playing with words"?.

So I am the one burying my head in the sand yet you are the one dismissing definitions? Lol. Carries are not the same since TBC. Even back then people would do Auction runs. The moose mount is where raid carries started to go mainstream and even had "Blizzard support" of the streamer that gave out free carries each week for them. 5-man carries started with Challenge modes in MoP. Tougher in MoP but easier with WoD. The garrison printing money is what allowed it to really go mainstream then 4 months after launch the token was introduced. But it was still the garrison money farm that propped up and supplied all of that gold.

It is unimportant that gold can be turned into Battle.net currency. Redeeming a gift card isn't pay to win. Being able to buy CoD with wow gold is not paying to win. These is your entire problem. You ignore the definition of phrases and then use it as a catch all for all monetary transactions you consider bad. That isn't how anything works and all the fancy word play you keep using won't stop you from being wrong.

[Alydael]

You can twist it up, down, left, right, six ways to Sunday even

You can call it by any words you want

You can use $$$ to buy a token. Gold from a token to buy boosts and have the max ilevel currently in game (with all the achieves, mounts and titles that come with it). Blizz is completely cool with this and allows it.

Buying the best gear in game with $$$$ is literally the definition of pay 2 win............

[kaminaris]

You can twist it up, down, left, right, six ways to Sunday even

You can call it by any words you want

You can use $$$ to buy a token. Gold from a token to buy boosts and have the max ilevel currently in game (with all the achieves, mounts and titles that come with it). Blizz is completely cool with this and allows it.

Buying the best gear in game with $$$$ is literally the definition of pay 2 win............

Now replace "token" with "tcg loot" and it will be the same. With the exception that you can't get max ilevel since you are still at mercy of RNG.

That is of course assuming your measurement of success.

[epigramx]

So I am the one burying my head in the sand yet you are the one dismissing definitions? Lol. Carries are not the same since TBC. Even back then people would do Auction runs. The moose mount is where raid carries started to go mainstream and even had "Blizzard support" of the streamer that gave out free carries each week for them. 5-man carries started with Challenge modes in MoP. Tougher in MoP but easier with WoD. The garrison printing money is what allowed it to really go mainstream then 4 months after launch the token was introduced. But it was still the garrison money farm that propped up and supplied all of that gold.

It is unimportant that gold can be turned into Battle.net currency. Redeeming a gift card isn't pay to win. Being able to buy CoD with wow gold is not paying to win. These is your entire problem. You ignore the definition of phrases and then use it as a catch all for all monetary transactions you consider bad. That isn't how anything works and all the fancy word play you keep using won't stop you from being wrong.

The fact you use the meme-hate against garrison to supposedly prove the token in relation to shop is unimportant makes it worse for your argument.

The garrison was just another source for gold; it has absolutely nothing to do with pay to win; it only affects inflation.

The factor you ignore or diminish that is directly related to pay to win is that boosters can buy stuff on the shop.

[HotSauce]

Yes, next question. Also remember when blizzard said their allegations were unfounded and politically driven? Never forget

[epigramx]

Now replace "token" with "tcg loot"

We covered that weak argument. Now replace "tcg loot" and "token" with "pay someone to play for you" and every game in the universe is pay to win.

The fact is multiple times worse now is what really matters and not how pay to win is defined because hell: not even all countries had access to tcg.

[arkanon]

So I am the one burying my head in the sand yet you are the one dismissing definitions? Lol. Carries are not the same since TBC. Even back then people would do Auction runs. The moose mount is where raid carries started to go mainstream and even had "Blizzard support" of the streamer that gave out free carries each week for them. 5-man carries started with Challenge modes in MoP. Tougher in MoP but easier with WoD. The garrison printing money is what allowed it to really go mainstream then 4 months after launch the token was introduced. But it was still the garrison money farm that propped up and supplied all of that gold.

It is unimportant that gold can be turned into Battle.net currency. Redeeming a gift card isn't pay to win. Being able to buy CoD with wow gold is not paying to win. These is your entire problem. You ignore the definition of phrases and then use it as a catch all for all monetary transactions you consider bad. That isn't how anything works and all the fancy word play you keep using won't stop you from being wrong.

We disagree a lot which is totally fine and even enjoyable, but we agree for with the timelines here. Other than the odd here and there carry over the years, the moose was when we actually set ourselves up to regularly sell runs.

We don't agree on everything else, but this I agree with completely. Could be different for others, but it lunes up with my personal experience.

- - - Updated - - -

The fact you use the meme-hate against garrison to supposedly prove the token in relation to shop is unimportant makes it worse for your argument.

The garrison was just another source for gold; it has absolutely nothing to do with pay to win; it only affects inflation.

The factor you ignore or diminish that is directly related to pay to win is that boosters can buy stuff on the shop.

What it changed is the landscape of carries - suddenly, people who had never seen more than 5k gold had 500,000 gold. It wasn't redistribution of wealth, but the creation of it from nothing.

One way to look at it is certain middle eastern countries that hit it BIG with oil, and within 5 years were faced with a very serious obesity problem. People that previously lived a humble life had tens of thousands of dollars in their account every month from the government, and they could buy things they previously could not. The reason I consider it a good comparison is the scale of the change, and how swiftly it happened. They didn't change anything about the way they lived their life, they just suddenly had huge amounts of wealth with no effort.

Just one addition - I didn't HATE the garrison, and I wasn't hungry for gold so I didn't even take advantage of it at all. So I'm not on some hate train, and have regularly defended WoD since day one - I personally genuinely enjoyed WoD.

[epigramx]

What it changed is the landscape of carries - suddenly, people who had never seen more than 5k gold had 500,000 gold.

No; that was the meme but it was clearly wrong; and I was pretty sure from back then that it was wrong because I was good at gold-making since expansions before WoD.
First of all: that's just some moderate extra inflation; even if you drop gold then most people will have gold; BOEs or whatever will just be more expensive anyway.
Most importantly (though hard to prove to those not good at gold-making): it's not even that much gold; I was making at least 20X that on the AH per character.

[Kayb]

Is WoW Pay 2 Win?


Nope.

[kaminaris]

We covered that weak argument. Now replace "tcg loot" and "token" with "pay someone to play for you" and every game in the universe is pay to win.

The fact is multiple times worse now is what really matters and not how pay to win is defined because hell: not even all countries had access to tcg.

No, you didn't cover anything simply because you don't understand the root of the problem. Multiple times worse is because the amount of fomo in the game and game overall difficulty going up.

People didn't give a damn about physical TCG cards, they just bought the loot code. Or they simply bought boosts directly.

Boosting is DEMAND DRIVEN. This is a fact. Your arguments are nonsensical simply because of this.