Updating the Valley of Heroes

[BaumanKing]

Since Turalyon and Alleria have been exposed as war criminals in Shadows Rising, and both are obviously destined to become villains in the future, should their statues be removed? If so, who should take their place?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

No. Removing statues is stupid. Someone erected them in the first place because they cared. Those statues meant something to someone at sometime. They are history and culture made material and lasting through the ages.

Also, the statues are a visually iconic part of Warcraft. They should remain.

[Calfredd]

No. Removing statues is stupid. Someone erected them in the first place because they cared. Those statues meant something to someone at sometime. They are history and culture made material and lasting through the ages.

Also, the statues are a visually iconic part of Warcraft. They should remain.

Should probably reread what you wrote and realize that it's a tissue-thin defense.

[rogoth]

yes, i demand they remove all the statues of female characters and replace them with culturally diverse and appropriate objects instead as a way to show that the management and developers aren't in fact sexual predators, i can only see this being good for the health of the game.

[Ryzeth]

yes, i demand they remove all the statues of female characters and replace them with culturally diverse and appropriate objects instead as a way to show that the management and developers aren't in fact sexual predators, i can only see this being good for the health of the game.

Can't wait to see giant statues of fruit bowls in the Valley of Heroes.

[BossManRoth]

War criminals? I can see them lining up Turalyon as a zealot like Yrel, but this is Blizzard, they won't take it very far. Alliance heroes can't be sullied.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

No. Removing statues is stupid. Someone erected them in the first place because they cared. Those statues meant something to someone at sometime. They are history and culture made material and lasting through the ages.

Also, the statues are a visually iconic part of Warcraft. They should remain.

Indeed, plus that part with them in Shadows Rising was utterly stupid since Turalyon has been shown to be willing to interrogate with the Light to force a Death Knight to tell the truth about the Horde's plans in Beyond the Dark Portal and that it didn't make him a bad guy (this also shows that Madeleine Roux didn't make her researches before writing a WoW novel).

Also I have always found it disappointing that there isn't a statue of Anduin Lothar in the Valley of Heroes given his importance for Stormwind and the Alliance as the leader of Stormwind army during the First War, leader of Stormwind survivors after and first Supreme Commander of the Alliance forces during the Second War.

[nnelson54]

yes, i demand they remove all the statues of female characters and replace them with culturally diverse and appropriate objects instead as a way to show that the management and developers aren't in fact sexual predators, i can only see this being good for the health of the game.

You people make reading any WoW forum unbearable.

[BossManRoth]

Indeed, plus that part with them in Shadows Rising was utterly stupid since Turalyon has been shown to be willing to interrogate with the Light to force a Death Knight to tell the truth about the Horde's plans in Beyond the Dark Portal and that it didn't make him a bad guy (this also shows that Madeleine Roux didn't make her researches before writing a WoW novel).

Also I have always found it disappointing that there isn't a statue of Anduin Lothar in the Valley of Heroes given his importance for Stormwind and the Alliance as the leader of Stormwind army during the First War, leader of Stormwind survivors after and first Supreme Commander of the Alliance forces during the Second War.

Not read Shadows Rising because Roux is a phenomenally terrible writer, so I'm guessing Turalyon used the light to do something in our world would be questionable but in the Warcraft universe is totally fine, because fantasy is fantasy and doesnt have to subscribe to our morals?

Also Lothar's statue is in The Burning Steppes

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You people make reading any WoW forum unbearable.

Can't tell if agree with OP and sees the sarcasm or if woosh

[BaumanKing]

plus that part with them in Shadows Rising was utterly stupid since Turalyon has been shown to be willing to interrogate with the Light to force a Death Knight to tell the truth about the Horde's plans in Beyond the Dark Portal and that it didn't make him a bad guy

Yeah, he and Khadgar both interrogated a death knight. Additionally, Khadgar himself tortured Garona in WoD, which even horrified Cordana. And yet Khadgar remained a good guy. In any case, there is something definitely fishy about these War2 characters.

[Daedius]

What did they do?

[Varodoc]

This is clear and obvious baiting.

Mind-torturing a civilian to get the location of Sylvanas is a horrible thing to do by the Geneva Conventions, but not by Warcraft standards. What Alleria and Turalyon did to 1 person that 1 time is what the Forsaken have been doing to thousands of people for 15 years.

Furthermore Turalyon and Alleria are now in charge of Stormwind, so they decide which statues are built and which are removed. And they remain war heroes of the Alliance.

If Bob the random peasant has a problem with that he can freely speak his mind, but naturally the Ren'dorei squads will be watching him. Closely.

Literally the only thing that should be changed is erasing psycho Sylvanas' signature from Alleria's statue, and that's because it would be like having Hitler's signature somewhere in the centre of Berlin. That's very poor taste. Everything else stays.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

^ Your absolute bias is showing. Rules for thee but not for me.

[haiyken]

Since Turalyon and Alleria have been exposed as war criminals in Shadows Rising, and both are obviously destined to become villains in the future, should their statues be removed? If so, who should take their place?

In what way are they war criminals? Most heroes and fighters on Azeroth (and beyond) all commited murder in some shape or form, some on very large scale if you take into consideration military leaders or rulers/kings/queens. War criminal (much like in the real world) in also a matter of perspective.

What we need to take into consideration is that the Warcraft story is currently unfolding, it's not History like we view it IRL. With that in mind, it would make little sense in the story for characters to consider living rulers inside their own faction as war criminals. They may disagree with what's happening, but I don't think it's realistic to see the public opinion shift in that way, that fast. There is no public knowledge of Alleria and Turalyon being bad people (and I personally don't think they are - extremists maybe, in their own way, but much like many characters in the lore), so no reason to change the tributes given to the heroes that shaped the current Eastern Kingdoms and founded the Alliance. Azeroth is also not the kind of place keen on history, especially the recent one (past few decades), because it's a war-torn land and its people didn't real had the time, yet, to look back on events and assign responsability.

I understand the reasoning you're having, but for me it's just too meta, it's a player's point of view on characters and not an in-lore point of view. It does echo real-world discussions, but I don't think it applies the same in Warcraft.

[Powerogue]

Remove Khadgar's statue for Crimes Against Puns.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I think the Khadgar one needs an update. He dosen't look like that anymore lol

[Jastall]

Remove Khadgar's statue for Crimes Against Puns.

Por que no los dos? Dadgar was perfectly capable of being effective without having a stick up his ass unlike most characters in this game who are one or the other. He should get a bigger statue, a living one making puns all day long.

[Feanoro]

(this also shows that Madeleine Roux didn't make her researches before writing a WoW novel).

She found out that he's ostensibly white and a member of a fantasy religion with imagery based on Christianity. After the foaming at the mouth calmed down, of course she wrote him in a bad light.

Also I have always found it disappointing that there isn't a statue of Anduin Lothar in the Valley of Heroes given his importance for Stormwind and the Alliance as the leader of Stormwind army during the First War, leader of Stormwind survivors after and first Supreme Commander of the Alliance forces during the Second War.

Agreed, efforts should have been made to either retrieve his statue from Burning Steppes, or a second one made.

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Additionally, Khadgar himself tortured Garona in WoD, which even horrified Cordana.

Wrong, he attempted to get past the geas Gul'dan had put on her, and it reacted, causing her pain. Considering that Cordana was a spy for the Legion (who knew with a name like FELsong?), it's far more likely her concern was that Khadgar was succeeding.

@Varodoc Speaking of Bobs, don't forget the Blood Elves under Regent Bob are instantly tortured and mind controlled if they say something against how the Glorious People's Republic of Quel'Thalas runs.

[VladlTutushkin]

^ Your absolute bias is showing. Rules for thee but not for me.

Then if we punish Turalyon for that one thing he did (after exhausting all other options and healing the orc afterwards) shall we punish nearly entire forsaken race then? Because they do far worse, far more often.

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Since Turalyon and Alleria have been exposed as war criminals in Shadows Rising, and both are obviously destined to become villains in the future, should their statues be removed? If so, who should take their place?

Okay… But then also horde should be punished for the crimes of its members, collectively or selectively. From orcs killing civilians in droves to forsaken whole war crime fiesta.

[Varodoc]

Then if we punish Turalyon for that one thing he did (after exhausting all other options and healing the orc afterwards) shall we punish nearly entire forsaken race then? Because they do far worse, far more often.

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Okay… But then also horde should be punished for the crimes of its members, collectively or selectively. From orcs killing civilians in droves to forsaken whole war crime fiesta.

The player itself should be punished, since "Mind Blast" is one of the first and most basic skills the Priest learns.

What Alleria did in the novel Shadows Rising was nothing out of the ordinary for the Warcraft universe.

Anyone who pretends otherwise is being hypocritical.

@Varodoc Speaking of Bobs, don't forget the Blood Elves under Regent Bob are instantly tortured and mind controlled if they say something against how the Glorious People's Republic of Quel'Thalas runs.

This is true, the funny thing is that Theron's claim isn't even legitimate anymore since Kael'Thas (the one who placed him there) went crazy and betrayed his people.