1. #2721
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    You can twist it up, down, left, right, six ways to Sunday even

    You can call it by any words you want

    You can use $$$ to buy a token. Gold from a token to buy boosts and have the max ilevel currently in game (with all the achieves, mounts and titles that come with it). Blizz is completely cool with this and allows it.

    Buying the best gear in game with $$$$ is literally the definition of pay 2 win............
    There is some core differences though to "classic" pay to win games:
    a) The demand of boosting is entirely player driven. And b) You still need people to do the content. Just having money gives you nothing, if you do not have people, who are offering those runs.

    And c) As we have seen with classic, no, not having the token doesn't solve the issue either. People will buy it, and just buy their gold from much more dubious unsecured sources. Or will break the rules of the game themselves doing the botting, and just hope, Blizzard just won't do anything.

  2. #2722
    Depends what your definition of win is, seeing as you can't really "win" in WoW.

    If you get your character to where you want through gold you bought, then yes, it's P2W.

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    Depends what your definition of win is, seeing as you can't really "win" in WoW.

    If you get your character to where you want through gold you bought, then yes, it's P2W.
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  3. #2723
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Boosting is DEMAND DRIVEN. This is a fact. Your arguments are nonsensical simply because of this.
    You can insert your fingers in your ears all you want, demand is irrelevant if supply is illegal.
    Not everyone wants to commit tax fraud pre-token in order to satisfy your argument.

  4. #2724
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    As I said above, that is not p2w at all.

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    It's not even "indirect P2W".

    It's simply getting other players to help you by giving them something of value in return. That is all.
    So there is no such thing as pay to win unless it's literally "WIN GAME BUTTON - PRESS FOR 59.99" Cool man, good job.

  5. #2725
    wow is not pay2win but:

    you can flick your credit card and buy token for gold
    pay top guilds and various boosters to take your fresh green geared toon to all end up content and get full gear with end of raid mounts etc.
    You can do that and have what the top 10 guilds in the world have and do it before the top1000 guilds and their player even manage to complete.

    But yes wow is not pay2win.

    gimme a break.

  6. #2726
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Im not talking from a moralistic pov lol. Were talking about p2w, try and keep up. P2w requires the games maker to profit from selling things to the players to make the game easier. Buying gold from 3rd party sellers isnt p2w. Buying it from the games maker is.
    The number of fucking hoops you are willing to jump through to fit your ridiculous definition of pay to win is downright commendable.

    Who gets the money is completely irrelevant. If it is pay to win now, it has always been pay to win because—and here's the critical part—the definition of 'winning' according to your's and others' laughable checklist has NEVER CHANGED.

    If buying boosts so that you are at the SAME ILEVEL AT MOST as other people is pay to win now, then it was also pay to win when the token was not available.
    If buying boosts to get AT BEST as high an arena ranking as other people is is pay to win now, then it was also pay to win when the token was not available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    For one, buying boosts isnt p2w. Buying gold is. Wow wasnt a p2w game before the token, because Blizzard wasnt making the money. Paying a 3rd party real money for gold, in violation of TOS, doesnt make a game p2w... gd.
    So, buying a mount for a booster wouldn't have been pay to win according to your logic. You're a parody.
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  7. #2727
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That makes no sense. In cata it was extremely suitable for boosting because the best guilds could carry one to two people at least.
    Cata did not have M+. Thus the demand for boosting was far more limited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeadeb View Post
    So there is no such thing as pay to win unless it's literally "WIN GAME BUTTON - PRESS FOR 59.99" Cool man, good job.
    That's not what I argued at all.

    pay to win simply means that there an inextricable association being paying and "winning" (however you choose to define winning). In other words, if you don't pay you can't really win, or, if you can win without paying, it is only with a ridiculous amount of effort.

    The token is not pay 2 win because it just doesn't fit that criterion. And this due entirely to the fact that when you pay $$ for a token, you're not buying from the game, but from another player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    "Enhancing your character in a way no-one can match unless they also pay money" is the one definition that has been universally accepted in this thread, except by you apparently.
    Boy, I wish this were true. The reason this thread is approaching 2500 posts is because some people refuse to accept this and insist on coming up with their asinine definitions....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    For one, buying boosts isnt p2w. Buying gold is. Wow wasnt a p2w game before the token, because Blizzard wasnt making the money.
    And wow still isn't p2w after the token because Blizzard aren't the ones being paid for the gold. Blizzard get a cut of the money as facilitators of the transaction, but it's other players that are being paid for the gold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by psyquest View Post
    wow is not pay2win but:

    you can flick your credit card and buy token for gold
    pay top guilds and various boosters to take your fresh green geared toon to all end up content and get full gear with end of raid mounts etc.
    You can do that and have what the top 10 guilds in the world have and do it before the top1000 guilds and their player even manage to complete.

    But yes wow is not pay2win.

    gimme a break.
    You clearly don't understand what pay2win actually is. Just because there is a payment involved and some sort of "winning" happening is not nearly adequate to qualify something as pay2win.

    pay2win means that you need to pay if you want to win. The entire concept of winning via a boost by other players is the antithesis of pay2win because the players who are the actual winners are the boosters, and not only did they not rely on paying to get there, they could not get there by paying at all.

  8. #2728
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Cata did not have M+. Thus the demand for boosting was far more limited.
    Might be true, but the supply might be multiple times more than that difference, because now the shop can let boosters buy all activision blizzard products including all wow services.

  9. #2729
    Yeah you basically have a super limited view of pay to win. If one person can gear up 10x faster by paying, which you can, don't argue silly points, then it's p2w.

  10. #2730
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeadeb View Post
    Yeah you basically have a super limited view of pay to win.
    No, I have a very clear understanding of what pay 2 win is, whereas you clearly do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by saeadeb View Post
    If one person can gear up 10x faster by paying, which you can, don't argue silly points, then it's p2w.
    1) 10x faster than what? (in pay2win it is faster than all other players except those who also pay)
    2) by paying whom? (in pay2win you pay the game, not other players)

    Your argument fails horribly on both these counts. As I say, you clearly don't understand what pay2win is, even if you're convinced you do. Pro-tip - go and do some investigations to see what the general consensus on the subject is before trying to come up with your own conclusions.

  11. #2731
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No, I have a very clear understanding of what pay 2 win is, whereas you clearly do not.



    1) 10x faster than what? (in pay2win it is faster than all other players except those who also pay)
    2) by paying whom? (in pay2win you pay the game, not other players)

    Your argument fails horribly on both these counts. As I say, you clearly don't understand what pay2win is, even if you're convinced you do. Pro-tip - go and do some investigations to see what the general consensus on the subject is before trying to come up with your own conclusions.
    It doesnt matter that other players get the money(and Blizzard a cut of it), its still a paid service to skip content in order to get better gear, mounts, titles and achivs. You keep going on with that argument, evne though you know Blizzard takes a cut from it. It doesnt matter that random player X gets money, its a paid service to boost your character to obtain important things that enhances your character. The end result is the same anyway. If Blizzard took 100% or just 5% of the prize, the end result is the same.

    As in most p2w games that arent obvious p2w schemes(so ppl like you can defend it for them), you can play the game and obtain everything, but it takes alot of time. Or, you can pay up, skip everything and just get it in a short amount of time.

    Theres lots of games out there with this formula. You can play FIFA and generate points to buy cards(and get better players for your team), but by the time you have played enough matches(won matches) and have a good team, the next FIFA is probably coming out. Much better to just shell out real money for cards.

    Same in wow. You can either pay up & get boosted to obtain mounts,titles, gear, achivs OR go the slow path of having a guild, meeting up for raids and all that stuff. Then maybe by the end of patch you might have obtained the stuff you wanted. Or you cop out and buy it.

    its an especially powerful formula in wow cause if you actually play the game, you might miss out on certain mounts/titles/achivs due to lots of reasons. but Blizzard have these rewards there, and oh hey - they have this amazing token you can get that lets you get this stuff while watching netflix. So its perfect to have seasonal rewards, so people get tempted to buy it.

    Theres a hell of a lot negative issues regarding the token that effects the game in a bad way, but thats not thet topic of this thread.

  12. #2732
    Yes, wow is p2w.
    if you consider wow gold to be the same as p2w cash currency, which it is, then you can easily call it p2w.
    you can farm cash on almost(99.9% but I am sure someone will find an example that isn't, so i'll say "almost") all p2w mmos shops at a ratio similar to wow's cash farm

    The price of wow gold is also calculated exactly like all companies calculate their currency/cash/p2w money, which makes it much easier and cheaper to just buy whatever you want with real money but not enough to completely devaluate it and generate infinite inflation, which is the goal of wow's systems: to create reasons for people to want to spend their money to buy tokens

    thus, p2w.

    Wow's current p2w system has a very similar ratio to that of Genshin Impact for example, which is a VERY p2w gacha
    Last edited by Nuba; 2021-10-10 at 04:05 PM.

  13. #2733
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    The fact you use the meme-hate against garrison to supposedly prove the token in relation to shop is unimportant makes it worse for your argument.
    Meme hate? What are you talking about. The garrisons were money printing machines. They are responsbile for injecting massive amounts of gold into the game with not much effort. There is a reason why they toned it down in Legion, BfA, and Shadowlands. They had to correct their mistake. There was 4 months of gold making before the token came about. And the garrison was the major source of gold supply for those early tokens.

    If the token has to do with pay to win then the source of gold for those tokens is related. People buying stuff on the shop has zero relation to pay to win. You don't win anything in WoW for being able to buy Call of Duty. It is silly to even attempt an argument like that.
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  14. #2734
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    Yes, wow is p2w.
    if you consider wow gold to be the same as p2w cash currency, which it is, then you can easily call it p2w.
    you can farm cash on almost(99.9% but I am sure someone will find an example that isn't, so i'll say "almost") all p2w mmos shops at a ratio similar to wow's cash farm

    The price of wow gold is also calculated exactly like all companies calculate their currency/cash/p2w money, which makes it much easier and cheaper to just buy whatever you want with real money but not enough to completely devaluate it and generate infinite inflation, which is the goal of wow's systems: to create reasons for people to want to spend their money to buy tokens

    thus, p2w.

    Wow's current p2w system has a very similar ratio to that of Genshin Impact for example, which is a VERY p2w gacha
    Does Genshin impact allow it to go both ways like WoW, so players can get plenty of current and convert it into cash easily?

  15. #2735
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    It doesnt matter that other players get the money(and Blizzard a cut of it)
    Of course it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    its still a paid service to skip content in order to get better gear, mounts, titles and achivs.
    It's not a paid service to the game, it's a transaction between players which you're trying to falsely equate as being the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    You keep going on with that argument, evne though you know Blizzard takes a cut from it.
    You might not like the fact that Blizzard takes a cut from it, but that doesn't have any relevance on the question of pay 2 win.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    It doesnt matter that random player X gets money, its a paid service to boost your character to obtain important things that enhances your character. The end result is the same anyway. If Blizzard took 100% or just 5% of the prize, the end result is the same.
    It's not the same result though. Not by a country mile. Why? Because at no point is paying money necessary to achieve these things. I mean for crying out loud, the people you're bloody paying to help you "win" got there before you without being boosted. How on earth is that possibly paying to "win"? You're getting another player, in a massively multiplayer game, to help you achieve something in game. That is all.

    Again I'll say it since your memory is short: You are not paying the game to give you some exclusive advantage. Therefore it is not pay 2 win. Simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    As in most p2w games that arent obvious p2w schemes(so ppl like you can defend it for them), you can play the game and obtain everything, but it takes alot of time. Or, you can pay up, skip everything and just get it in a short amount of time.
    Stop exaggerating. The people who sell the gold to token buyers make that gold with sufficiently low effort that they're prepared to accept 35% less value from selling their gold than the buyer is paying, and in a currency that is restricted to the Blizzard store. Gold - in the quantities feasibly attainable via token - is not that hard to acquire in the game that you are ever forced to resort to a token. If it were, no one would pay the gold to buy a token in the first place.

    Furthermore, you can't just "skip everything" as you claim. You have to wait for other players to complete that content first. On top of that, the number of players who can buy tokens to do this is very much limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Theres lots of games out there with this formula. You can play FIFA and generate points to buy cards(and get better players for your team), but by the time you have played enough matches(won matches) and have a good team, the next FIFA is probably coming out. Much better to just shell out real money for cards.
    I don't play FIFA, so I am not with familiar with their card system. However I am betting that you don't buy those cards from other players, but from the game itself, in unlimited quantities. Which in turn sets up a situation where, if you want to be competitive, you have little choice but to pay for those cards.

    In WoW, you literally cannot get to the top by buying boosts from other players.


    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Same in wow. You can either pay up & get boosted to obtain mounts,titles, gear, achivs OR go the slow path of having a guild, meeting up for raids and all that stuff. Then maybe by the end of patch you might have obtained the stuff you wanted. Or you cop out and buy it.
    You mean the slow path like what the boosters take?

    Time to face up to the grim truth here. If you're paying for a boost, you ain't a winner. Just the opposite in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    its an especially powerful formula in wow cause if you actually play the game, you might miss out on certain mounts/titles/achivs due to lots of reasons. but Blizzard have these rewards there, and oh hey - they have this amazing token you can get that lets you get this stuff while watching netflix. So its perfect to have seasonal rewards, so people get tempted to buy it.
    Again, you're trying to pretend that the only practical way of achieving any of this stuff is by paying $$. Now I am not trying to argue that you can't effectively acquire certain in game rewards by paying $$. What I am refuting is that it is the only feasible option - which would be the case in an actual p2w game.

    The token simply buys you a small amount of gold. Therefore anyone who can acquire that amount of gold in-game has access to everything that token buyers have access to. And because the amount of gold you can buy with a token is governed by the laws of supply and demand based on how much gold people actually make in-game, that quantity will always be pretty small.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Theres a hell of a lot negative issues regarding the token that effects the game in a bad way, but thats not thet topic of this thread.
    Not really. I mean, sure, for haters, the token is a lovely magnet for negative criticism, but as I see it, the token brings a lot more positives to the game than negatives.
    1) It allows some players to play the game effectively for free
    2) It allows those same players to acquire shop items by playing the game
    3) It gives players who are going to pay money for a gold a safe means of doing so
    4) It has a significant effect on the demand for the 3rd party goldselling services which are a cancer to the game

    About the only negative from the token is that it illicits a bunch of hissy-fits among a certain type of player. And I am not even convinced that's even a negative...

  16. #2736
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Of course it does.



    It's not a paid service to the game, it's a transaction between players which you're trying to falsely equate as being the same thing.



    You might not like the fact that Blizzard takes a cut from it, but that doesn't have any relevance on the question of pay 2 win.



    It's not the same result though. Not by a country mile. Why? Because at no point is paying money necessary to achieve these things. I mean for crying out loud, the people you're bloody paying to help you "win" got there before you without being boosted. How on earth is that possibly paying to "win"? You're getting another player, in a massively multiplayer game, to help you achieve something in game. That is all.

    Again I'll say it since your memory is short: You are not paying the game to give you some exclusive advantage. Therefore it is not pay 2 win. Simple.



    Stop exaggerating. The people who sell the gold to token buyers make that gold with sufficiently low effort that they're prepared to accept 35% less value from selling their gold than the buyer is paying, and in a currency that is restricted to the Blizzard store. Gold - in the quantities feasibly attainable via token - is not that hard to acquire in the game that you are ever forced to resort to a token. If it were, no one would pay the gold to buy a token in the first place.

    Furthermore, you can't just "skip everything" as you claim. You have to wait for other players to complete that content first. On top of that, the number of players who can buy tokens to do this is very much limited.



    I don't play FIFA, so I am not with familiar with their card system. However I am betting that you don't buy those cards from other players, but from the game itself, in unlimited quantities. Which in turn sets up a situation where, if you want to be competitive, you have little choice but to pay for those cards.

    In WoW, you literally cannot get to the top by buying boosts from other players.




    You mean the slow path like what the boosters take?

    Time to face up to the grim truth here. If you're paying for a boost, you ain't a winner. Just the opposite in fact.



    Again, you're trying to pretend that the only practical way of achieving any of this stuff is by paying $$. Now I am not trying to argue that you can't effectively acquire certain in game rewards by paying $$. What I am refuting is that it is the only feasible option - which would be the case in an actual p2w game.

    The token simply buys you a small amount of gold. Therefore anyone who can acquire that amount of gold in-game has access to everything that token buyers have access to. And because the amount of gold you can buy with a token is governed by the laws of supply and demand based on how much gold people actually make in-game, that quantity will always be pretty small.



    Not really. I mean, sure, for haters, the token is a lovely magnet for negative criticism, but as I see it, the token brings a lot more positives to the game than negatives.
    1) It allows some players to play the game effectively for free
    2) It allows those same players to acquire shop items by playing the game
    3) It gives players who are going to pay money for a gold a safe means of doing so
    4) It has a significant effect on the demand for the 3rd party goldselling services which are a cancer to the game

    About the only negative from the token is that it illicits a bunch of hissy-fits among a certain type of player. And I am not even convinced that's even a negative...
    complains about 3rd party goldselling while defending Blizzards token. Nice. How can you call that cancer and not the token?

    I mean come on, the game is nothing but a lobby for boosting and carries these days. Its everywhere non stop 24/7. Its a total shitshow sanctioned by Blizzard and defended by the likes of you. For what? So "some" players can play wow for free? Give me a break. most people that interact with the token is not people that thinks about something like that.

    Its random player thinking "oh I buy this token, sell it and get free gear/mount/achivs/titles? cool lets go. Enough people cleary does it too, cause its a constant shitshow ingame.

    Blizzard clearly and willfully creates game mechanics with the token in mind and dont give a shit if sub numbers drops. Theres enough people wanting to boost for the rewards. So instead of making a quality game(so people stay), they can have way less players and manage just fine.

    Makes sense really. Why give 100% when you can halfass it and rely on boosted service sales? Without the token, boosting wouldnt be as big as it is today. Its like the whole endgame at this point.
    Last edited by crusadernero; 2021-10-10 at 05:11 PM.

  17. #2737
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    It's not a paid service to the game, it's a transaction between players which you're trying to falsely equate as being the same thing.
    Lol what do you even say to this.. of course its a paid service and blizzard profits off of it.. This is the problem with this discussion, people cant even admit the token is a paid service lmao
    Last edited by Daymanmb; 2021-10-10 at 05:14 PM.

  18. #2738
    I pay real money to Blizzard that I can then use to get some of the best gear in the game. Pretty clear cut case to me and I ain't complaining either, it's capitalism at its best.

  19. #2739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    The price of wow gold is also calculated exactly like all companies calculate their currency/cash/p2w money, which makes it much easier and cheaper to just buy whatever you want with real money but not enough to completely devaluate it and generate infinite inflation
    That's a load of nonsense. The price of tokens is determined by supply and demand. It's the compromise between what players on the one end of the gold-making-competency spectrum see as good value to be paying for gold, and what those on the other end see as good value to be selling gold at. Ergo, for some players it is easier and cheaper to just buy it, but for most players, it's easier just to acquire it in-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    which is the goal of wow's systems: to create reasons for people to want to spend their money to buy tokens
    That is conspiracy theory thinking. I would argue that the game itself is pretty agnostic towards tokens. Of course Blizzard saw an opportunity to generate cash with them, but I don't see any evidence that making money was ever their primary objective or that they try to push people to buy them, preferring instead to not tamper and just let token transactions happen naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    thus, p2w.
    p2w sets the system up such that those who don't pay are effectively excluded from being able to "win". The token does not do that. Yes, it is option for inclusion, but it is hardly an exclusive option. Hell it's not even the preferred option, given that the vast majority of players achieving these things, especially those who do it first (ie the actual winners) do it entirely without tokens.

    thus, not p2w.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    Wow's current p2w system has a very similar ratio to that of Genshin Impact for example, which is a VERY p2w gacha
    Never played it, but from the description, you buy lootboxes from the game that have a direct impact on your power. That sounds very different to wow tokens. As I understand it, a gacha system in WoW would be like paying money to basically open the weekly loot vault as many times as you can afford...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Lol what do you even say to this.. of course its a paid service and blizzard profits off of it.. This is the problem with this discussion, people cant even admit the token is a paid service lmao
    The "paid service" is them facilitating the transaction - linking a buyer and seller.

    A good real-life analogy is airbnb. They don't provide anyone with accommodation, they simply provide a platform for people seeking accommodation to find those providing accommodation, and take a cut for doing so. In the same way, the token isn't providing the gold.

    If you could hop onto the Blizzard shop and literally buy gold which the game then generated for you, without the listing of the token on the AH and some other person paying gold for it on the end, then sure that would very much be pay to win.

    Honestly, I don't see how you guys don't get this very basic concept. I suspect it's just plain old stubborness

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    complains about 3rd party goldselling while defending Blizzards token. Nice. How can you call that cancer and not the token?
    I have explained it. How can you not grasp such a simple concept?

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    I mean come on, the game is nothing but a lobby for boosting and carries these days. Its everywhere non stop 24/7. Its a total shitshow sanctioned by Blizzard and defended by the likes of you. For what? So "some" players can play wow for free? Give me a break. most people that interact with the token is not people that thinks about something like that.
    Gross exaggeration lacking in any substance.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Its random player thinking "oh I buy this token, sell it and get free gear/mount/achivs/titles? cool lets go. Enough people cleary does it too, cause its a constant shitshow ingame.
    Stop being disingenuous. It demonstrates not only the fact that your argument is shit, but it also destroys your credibility as an honest commentator.

    Tokens patently do not give you "free gear/mount/achivs/titles". They gives you gold. Gold is that by no means exclusive to token buyers and is in fact pretty trivial to acquire without paying a cent.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Blizzard clearly and willfully creates game mechanics with the token in mind and dont give a shit if sub numbers drops.
    like what exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Theres enough people wanting to boost for the rewards. So instead of making a quality game(so people stay), they can have way less players and manage just fine.

    Makes sense really. Why give 100% when you can halfass it and rely on boosted service sales? Without the token, boosting wouldnt be as big as it is today. Its like the whole endgame at this point.
    Sorry but I just don't buy into this conspiracy theory thinking.

  20. #2740
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post

    You clearly don't understand what pay2win actually is. Just because there is a payment involved and some sort of "winning" happening is not nearly adequate to qualify something as pay2win.

    pay2win means that you need to pay if you want to win. The entire concept of winning via a boost by other players is the antithesis of pay2win because the players who are the actual winners are the boosters, and not only did they not rely on paying to get there, they could not get there by paying at all.

    I think you disagree with people that dont see thing the way you want. wow is about end game and conquering the hardest difficulty. this use to mean being with equally skilled players to do that. Winning is also about getting the gear to do great dps and do well in arena. Guess what? All this can actually be bought with cash.

    So I am afraid I completely disagree with you. wow is pay2win and dont bother answering we will never see eye to eye on this subject.

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