I think WoW would benefit from having less difficulty modes and less ilv.

[Soon-TM]

Remember when raids had actual difficulty curves and not "Most of the fights are a joke except 2-3 per tier"?

By having so many difficulties they destroyed any semblance of a curve.

The problem is further exacerbated this tier due to how comically OP are domination sockets. I can't wait to see the surprised pikachu faces of many players when they walk into the 9.2 raid and suddenly realise that they are doing ~10% dmg for no apparent reason

[Sin of Pride]

The amount of difficulties is just entirely pointless. Merge heroic and normal at least.

I don't really know if raid difficulties need to be touched if I am being honest. Perhaps the rewards could be tweaked a little but here is how I see it.

LFR: Story mode and bare basics. LFRs problem isn't really lfr but rather the players who enter it. I am a transmog hunter so I dabble in lfr a lot especially to gear up alts since it feels like killing two birds with one stone. LFR's big problem is people who enter it to cause disruptions due to its auto group nature.

Normal/Heroic: It is the first "real" raid. Mechanics are not really punishing but you need basic knowledge on what to do and how to do it. Out of all the difficulties normal and heroic feel the closest in terms of function. That said I feel the two complement each other. As much as more experienced wow players scoff at heroic it isn't really all that easy especially at gear level.

Mythic: This is the dicey topic... I will be honest I have over 12 years of CE equivalent with my highest progression rate ever seeing me in the world top ten (was a ten man guild in MoP though) though my average is roughly world 500ish. I think Mythic is becoming to unforgiving and to reliant on strict timers and class comps. I enjoy it but I can see a real argument that we are edging near the point where mythic could use some dialing back.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is further exacerbated this tier due to how comically OP are domination sockets. I can't wait to see the surprised pikachu faces of many players when they walk into the 9.2 raid and suddenly realise that they are doing ~10% dmg for no apparent reason

It is much higher then 10% I swapped covenants recently and ran through lfr and normal/heroic pugs to get renowned. I noticed a roughly 30% dps drop though I was playing MM and the class relies on building massive bursts during cds.

[Kuntantee]

As for dungeons. I think the current system is bloated and inefficient for all involved. Heroic outside of leveling doesn't really serve a purpose its a pointless difficulty mode that offers no challenge and the mythic plus system is a poor system for gearing. I would suggest making mythic 0 just normal. Make mythic 10 heroic and mythic 15 "mythic".

After that you move the mythic+ system into a new game plus area. It doesn't have anything to do with gearing but you add rewards to it similar to pvp. Have a recolored elite/mythic set for hitting a certain milestone add cosmetic flares etc.

These is a dumb idea of extreme proportions. Mythic+ is the whole reason why some people play the game.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Yep too many layers post normal in dungeons. Heroic is basically a pointless difficulty mode.
Mythic 0 should become the new heroic, probably toned down slightly.

I see this differently.


At least in most recent times, there are differences in mechanics in dungeons between Normal and Heroic/Mythic. Personally I think Normal should remain the way it is, especially when it comes to leveling.


Heroic should be where you see the changes in mechanics (both dungeon trash mobs + bosses) from Normal, and Mythic should just be increased in difficulty from Heroic. This is how it is now and they serve their purpose fine.


Unfortunately it's up to the players to pay attention and remember.

[Sin of Pride]

These is a dumb idea of extreme proportions. Mythic+ is the whole reason why some people play the game.

Why I suggested keeping it. Simply have the mythic plus key drop from a difficulty equivalent to a mythic 15 then start the mythic plus system and add additional rewards to it. I would suggest making it on par with pvp having seasonal transmog sets and enchantment mogs.

[Kuntantee]

Why I suggested keeping it. Simply have the mythic plus key drop from a difficulty equivalent to a mythic 15 then start the mythic plus system and add additional rewards to it. I would suggest making it on par with pvp having seasonal transmog sets and enchantment mogs.

What happens to people who can not make it into 15 or even 10?

[Sin of Pride]

What happens to people who can not make it into 15 or even 10?

They do a lower level of difficulty? I don't want to be rude but did you read anything in the thread to figure out what it was about or did you skip to the last post without knowing anything just to chime in that you thought that single post of any and all context was dumb?

[erifwodahs]

It would allow them content that doesn't have one person risking more. It is part of the reason why groups are so picky even at low levels.

You are not answering and you are not even replying about your statement. Are you this this? Put like 2 seconds into thinking about anything you say ffs.

[Elias1337]

What's the problem with ilvl inflation I always wonder, are players scared of getting stronger and bigger numbers?
Because of the inevitable stat squish that most players get used to anyways in an hour?

This time the raid items jumped by 26 (previous 30) instead of the usual 13 (previous 15) item levels, which was really damn necessary due to many players already having mythic level gear thanks to the more than ever deterministic way of gearing with the weekly m+ vault reward.

The loot carrot is one of the strongest motivators this game has and needs as the developers seem to have a hard time developing just for fun/casual content (or the majority of players actually had fun with islands, warfronts and torghast and I'm skinners-meme.jpg)

Becouse it makes PvP broken. Go as fresh lvl 60. You will get oblirated in 0,1 second without any impact on game outcome. You are just minion what others one shot. And this exist beoucouse of power inflation. Power inflation also causes power scale so high that game need drastic catch up mechanics in order for new players not be 300% behind in power which caussed wow to become seasonal. And this type of seasonal gameplay invalidates players effort they put into they characters = people dont care about gear and quit.

[jazen]

Easiest solution to ilvl differential is any q'able content (lfg/lfr/random bg) has a hard cap of the max from available gear at that content. Non-rated q'able pvp is a mess of glad's vs , and as fun as it may be for someone with 20-30 ilvl higher, it's not that enjoyable for the toon who is either new lvl 60 or only plays non-rated for reasons.

[Thor79]

Was touched on in another thread but feels like it should be its own topic. For raids I think the prior mythic tier should be equal to the next raids heroic in terms of power with perhaps a few items carrying over. It isn't a drastic change but would help keep more content relevant for alts and would encourage pugging.

As for dungeons. I think the current system is bloated and inefficient for all involved. Heroic outside of leveling doesn't really serve a purpose its a pointless difficulty mode that offers no challenge and the mythic plus system is a poor system for gearing. I would suggest making mythic 0 just normal. Make mythic 10 heroic and mythic 15 "mythic".

After that you move the mythic+ system into a new game plus area. It doesn't have anything to do with gearing but you add rewards to it similar to pvp. Have a recolored elite/mythic set for hitting a certain milestone add cosmetic flares etc.

I think these changes would help ease people into harder parts of the game without the weird bottle neck you currently see with keys and their punish the key holder tactic that has player either being willing to form their own groups or farming dozens of trivial keys to get into slightly higher ones.

I like your ideas, they seem well thought out. I agree there is little relevant content for alts, and that the dungeon and raid tiers are bloated.

[Bloomer]

Was touched on in another thread but feels like it should be its own topic. For raids I think the prior mythic tier should be equal to the next raids heroic in terms of power with perhaps a few items carrying over. It isn't a drastic change but would help keep more content relevant for alts and would encourage pugging.

As for dungeons. I think the current system is bloated and inefficient for all involved. Heroic outside of leveling doesn't really serve a purpose its a pointless difficulty mode that offers no challenge and the mythic plus system is a poor system for gearing. I would suggest making mythic 0 just normal. Make mythic 10 heroic and mythic 15 "mythic".

After that you move the mythic+ system into a new game plus area. It doesn't have anything to do with gearing but you add rewards to it similar to pvp. Have a recolored elite/mythic set for hitting a certain milestone add cosmetic flares etc.

I think these changes would help ease people into harder parts of the game without the weird bottle neck you currently see with keys and their punish the key holder tactic that has player either being willing to form their own groups or farming dozens of trivial keys to get into slightly higher ones.

It's very rare to agree with someone in here when it comes to game design, but I do agree with the direction of this.
Too bad Ion the Hack™ is too stubborn (prideful?) to actually allow any meaningful feedback from players to shape the state of the game.

[Deneios]

Heroic Dungeons should just be turned to m0, solo queue bg should have synced stats/ilvl ie if you go over certain treshold in ilvl you get synced down and if you are below you get synced up to a minimum. Then you wouldnt get obliterated but your higher gear would still have an advantage.

[OokOok]

I don't get how you people haven't grasped yet that mythic raiders are the minority.

Lfr/Normal/heroic they exist for the casuals. Mythic 0-10 exists for the casuals. The casuals......are the majority

Why would Blizzard change something that benefits the minority and punished the majority? That's basically like how things were until Mop... You had Normal...you had Heroic... if you couldn't do heroic then you were stuck in Normal, the casuals cried they didn't get to do heroic it wasn't fair. SO blizzard made Mythic, and made heroic easier and kept it for the casuals to feel a sense of accomplishment over Normal.


It doesn't matter what you want, it doesn't matter what you think.... you are the minority if you raid Mythic or do 15+ and the majority is where the money comes from. It's the majority who will still play this game no matter how much stupid shit blizzard does and changes, it's the majority who will keep buying overpriced stupid shit from the shop and wow tokens. Keep making these threads, it won't happen.
There's a reason they exist. This whole structure is in place.... to keep the casuals playing and busy. Most mythic raiders fuck off after they finish the final raid minus the top 10 who farm for ilvl/sales and who do you think buys those sales? casuals. Where do they get the money? wow tokens.

[Alkizon]

Technically, everything again essentially comes down to this(+) eternal question.

[|Dexter|]

I would say remove mythics from the game and make normal and heroic harder and just keep it there with dungeons.... FFXIV doesn't need Mythics and Esports they just made a good game they got 3 dungeon modes and it works great!

[sam86]

u mean instead of rehash/reuse same dungeon 1502 time with M+ and raids they actually need to do new raids and dungeons for players to play? blasphemy

[Alydael]

Was touched on in another thread but feels like it should be its own topic. For raids I think the prior mythic tier should be equal to the next raids heroic in terms of power with perhaps a few items carrying over. It isn't a drastic change but would help keep more content relevant for alts and would encourage pugging.

As for dungeons. I think the current system is bloated and inefficient for all involved. Heroic outside of leveling doesn't really serve a purpose its a pointless difficulty mode that offers no challenge and the mythic plus system is a poor system for gearing. I would suggest making mythic 0 just normal. Make mythic 10 heroic and mythic 15 "mythic".

After that you move the mythic+ system into a new game plus area. It doesn't have anything to do with gearing but you add rewards to it similar to pvp. Have a recolored elite/mythic set for hitting a certain milestone add cosmetic flares etc.

I think these changes would help ease people into harder parts of the game without the weird bottle neck you currently see with keys and their punish the key holder tactic that has player either being willing to form their own groups or farming dozens of trivial keys to get into slightly higher ones.

I agree with most of your points.

First of all, I don't even know why they do the whole "key" thing. It is a gameplay model that is really poorly designed and just begging to cause trouble and player frustration. I know it has lived up to that.
Just make it:
You can run the dungeon on a M+ of your choice once a week for loot from the dungeon. (You pick the level)
If you run the dungeon after that (with friends etc) it won't drop loot but if you clear a higher key, it will improve your vault item ilvl.
I really don't understand why there has to be a "key" in your bag taking up a slot. Seems a tad archaic, like a game from the 1980's. Players don't want that nonsense in 2021.

As for difficulty and gear. I agree. The game is way too gear dependent and you switch pieces out way too often. I play other mmo's, WoW has the highest rate of gear turnover by far.

Having the mythic and the next teir heroic be on roughly the same lvl (maybe a slight difference like 223 to 226) would give guilds something else to do if they were getting a little tired of the current raid. Maybe some BIS can be in the mythic and some in the heroic so that it makes both viable. I would go a step further and turn the mythic raid flex (not stuck on 20) once it is no longer current teir. The 20 is another archaic thing they have going here.

They forced themselves into a design corner, every time. I think your idea could be the basis of a good model and the start of a new direction.

The devs are very obviously struggling to support the current model (and have been for many x pacs). They have to cook up crazy convoluted systems that no one wants just to keep this style viable. They go do away with all that with just a slight change in philosophy/ direction.

The devs seem to think that the reward that players want is more gear, so they basically just throw gear at us and tie it to systems they want us to do. We do want that a little but we really want more content and more things to explore. the gear is supposed to be the avenue that gets us there , not the end all.

I often thought WoW would do a lot better with less gear but the gear was more meaningful when you got it. That and way less rng. The RNG leaves a very negative, empty feeling when you don't get something- not a feeling you want the players to experience in your game when you expect them to pay you 15$/ month and buy an expac every couple years.

Reading back on this, Blizz got too wrapped up and forgot the ABC's of game design. They should go study some Nintendo games, Nintendo has always done that part well.

[Tyris Flare]

As for difficulty and gear. I agree. The game is way too gear dependent and you switch pieces out way too often. I play other mmo's, WoW has the highest rate of gear turnover by far.

Gear turnover is good, actually. ESO and other games are insanely boring because of the flat curve. Some people like it, but that is a different audience than WOW.

WoW has literally always been like this. To quote GC, it is a game about upgrading your stuff.

[Martymark]

"We have listened to players, and in 9.1.5 we are introducing Mythic LFR difficulty!"