Updating the Valley of Heroes

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not to mention the fact that the woman spews disgusting vitriol on Twitter and somehow is still employed by Blizzard. I thought she was just a contract for the book, but she claimed to actually be employed at one point. Writing a book doesn't necessarily count as employment to me, so not sure what that would be or whether she felt it was.

she is just a contractor, Golden has said in the past that once hired on proper at blizzard they can't do book's for other company's and roux has books coming out for D&D and such if google is any thing to go by. if she just said she was employed she likely meant she was hired to write the books she's done for blizzard.

[BossManRoth]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/All...Shadows_Rising

Imagine calling Alleria and Turalyon "war criminals" because they:

1) INITIALLY tried to get the answers they wanted peacefully (trying for 1 hour);
2) RELUCTANTLY proceeded with the more aggressive method;
3) Maintained their cool after the captive SPAT on them;
4) IMMEDIATELY STOPPED once they got the answer they were looking for;
5) Ordered their troops to give FOOD, RESOURCES, BLANKETS to the poor Horde refugees in the Arathi Highlands.

How funny OP; You tried to paint Alleria and Turalyon as war criminals. But accomplished the opposite. Since anyone [who is not biased] can see that Alleria and Turalyon are FAR MORE LENIENT than the average citizen of the Warcraft world. If it was the Forsaken conducting that investigation, not only they'd start right off the bat with the mind-control, but then they'd just kill the captives and the rest of the refugees.

And also this bit:



Again, they only take a more aggressive stance once they are left with no other choice.

While the Horde takes the aggressive stance since the beginning.

Nope, Alleria and Turalyon are still better than the Horde. Easily. They take a more drastic approach ONLY, AND EXCLUSIVELY, when they have no other option left (because the subject refuses to cooperate and even spits on them, thus acting in a hostile and disgusting way).

So they did things that are totally acceptable in the framework of Warcraft's universe... so in universe, not war criminals. I'm tired of people not letting fantasy be fantasy and insisting we apply or modern "morals" to it.

[Varodoc]

So they did things that are totally acceptable in the framework of Warcraft's universe... so in universe, not war criminals. I'm tired of people not letting fantasy be fantasy and insisting we apply or modern "morals" to it.

They're not war criminals even by IRL standards.

Try to spit at President Biden and let's see what happens to you, I assure you that Biden won't give you free food and blankets for your family.

[Funkyjunky]

Valley of Zeroes

[BossManRoth]

They're not war criminals even by IRL standards.

Try to spit at President Biden and let's see what happens to you, I assure you that Biden won't give you free food and blankets for your family.

I meant the torture part, but I get it

[Mehrunes]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/All...Shadows_Rising

Imagine calling Alleria and Turalyon "war criminals" because they:

1) INITIALLY tried to get the answers they wanted peacefully (trying for 1 hour);
2) RELUCTANTLY proceeded with the more aggressive method;
3) Maintained their cool after the captive SPAT on them;
4) IMMEDIATELY STOPPED once they got the answer they were looking for;
5) Ordered their troops to give FOOD, RESOURCES, BLANKETS to the poor Horde refugees in the Arathi Highlands.

How funny OP; You tried to paint Alleria and Turalyon as war criminals. But accomplished the opposite. Since anyone [who is not biased] can see that Alleria and Turalyon are FAR MORE LENIENT than the average citizen of the Warcraft world. If it was the Forsaken conducting that investigation, not only they'd start right off the bat with the mind-control, but then they'd just kill the captives and the rest of the refugees.

And also this bit:

Again, they only take a more aggressive stance once they are left with no other choice.

While the Horde takes the aggressive stance since the beginning.

Nope, Alleria and Turalyon are still better than the Horde. Easily. They take a more drastic approach ONLY, AND EXCLUSIVELY, when they have no other option left (because the subject refuses to cooperate and even spits on them, thus acting in a hostile and disgusting way).

Oh, the captive spat on them? That changes everything. Everyone knows you're supposed to give tea and biscuits to the people torturing you

And it's funny that you're accusing the OP of being biased when you're trying to whitewash Alleria and Turalyon so hard that you couldn't even keep your story straight between the part preceding your second quote and the part succeeding it. Because in the initial half of the post you (correctly, surprisingly enough) point out that one of the captives spat on them after they started torturing them. Yet by the end of your post it magically morphed to them resorting to torture because the captive spat on them.

What makes it even funnier is that your "ermahgerd bias" spiel is immediately followed by an objectively false remark how they are supposedly FAR MORE LENIENT than the average citizen in the Warcraft world, when the examples of torture performed by members of the Alliance or the Horde in the entirety of Warcraft can be counted on your fingers, meanwhile its named citizens alone number in the thousands. Which you supported by resorting to a comparison to a group of people that are literally emotionally hampered by the necromantic magic that resurrected them, making it an extremely weak example to support your earlier claim. It also contains a falsehood of its own, because examples of Forsaken mind-controlling their captives are even rarer than the aforementioned examples of torture.

So they did things that are totally acceptable in the framework of Warcraft's universe... so in universe, not war criminals. I'm tired of people not letting fantasy be fantasy and insisting we apply or modern "morals" to it.

Actually, by Warcraft's standards even recruiting people that did some bad stuff more than a decade before you even set foot on Azeroth, let alone teamed up with them nets you a war criminal accusation (vide one of the war crime charges against Garrosh being what the Dragonmaw did to the Red Dragonflight during the Second War). And personally torturing refugees beats that by a mile.

They're not war criminals even by IRL standards.

Try to spit at President Biden and let's see what happens to you, I assure you that Biden won't give you free food and blankets for your family.

And now you outright dropped the torture part. Top notch lack of bias you got there Also, I'm not sure where you're going with this comparison, but I sure hope it's not about spitting on Biden as a US citizen, because that would be a monumental false equivalence as Alleria and Turalyon had absolutely no authority over those Horde members. Either way, whatever Biden would have done in response to the spitting, he'd be impeached the moment it surfaced that he personally tortured someone.

[BossManRoth]

snip

You're still projecting real world morality. and the Garrosh and Dragonmaw thing, he wasn't charge with their crimes, it was evidense that he didn't keep the best allies, and that their tactics used against the reds were still being used.

[DeltrusDisc]

Can't wait to see giant statues of fruit bowls in the Valley of Heroes.

Only the most beautiful fruit bowls of ONE WHOLE FRUIT will do!

Somehow it symbolizes diversity and inclusivity!

[Mehrunes]

You're still projecting real world morality. and the Garrosh and Dragonmaw thing, he wasn't charge with their crimes, it was evidense that he didn't keep the best allies, and that their tactics used against the reds were still being used.

Except you're blatantly misrepresenting the book here. While it was briefly mentioned that the Dragonmaw continued enslaving dragons even after Garrosh let them rejoin the Horde, that happened before the witness pertaining to the Dragonmaw issue had been asked even a single question. The actual examination of the Dragonmaw topic revolved around the events of the Second War and those events alone. And it was those events, not their later dragon-enslavement during Cataclysm, that had been explicitly claimed to be evidence of those charges against Garrosh. Furthermore, the case of Alexstrasza being forced to lay more eggs for the Dragonmaw during the Second War was literally the only example supporting the ninth charge, i.e forced pregnancy. In the entirety of the book. So yes, he most certainly was charged with their crimes. But hey, this blatant lie is still better than the non-argument about real world morality that you couldn't even bother to support with anything.

Also, even if you were correct about the Dragonmaw thing, which you are not, your overall point would still remain false. Hell, it'd remain false even if you put the Dragonmaw topic aside altogether. And the reason for that is another charge against Garrosh. You know, torture. So your claims that it's "totally acceptable in the framework of Warcraft's universe" and that Alleria and Turalyon are "in universe, not war criminals" are as factually incorrect as they can possibly get.

[muffinss]

Valley of Zeroes

I present to you, the Valley of Fruit Bowls. For the new, improved Blizzard.

[Caerule]

Yes, the heroes that saved the world should have their statues commemorating their sacrifice removed, because of that "enhanced interrogation" that isn't public knowledge.

That's not happening. Yeah, Turalyon may go off the rails in the future, but that's no excuse to mess with his statue now. He's on the throne, for cry it out loud.

[tripleh]

What happens in the books is cannon Danuser once said. Doesn't mean it affects the in game story.

[Aucald]

This thread is getting way off track into real-world and identity politics. Let's return to the actual focus on the thread concerning the Valley of Heroes.

[Funkyjunky]

I present to you, the Valley of Fruit Bowls. For the new, improved Blizzard.

You went too far.. Let's take a step back.

[Ardenaso]

This is clear and obvious baiting.

Mind-torturing a civilian to get the location of Sylvanas is a horrible thing to do by the Geneva Conventions, but not by Warcraft standards. What Alleria and Turalyon did to 1 person that 1 time is what the Forsaken have been doing to thousands of people for 15 years.

Furthermore Turalyon and Alleria are now in charge of Stormwind, so they decide which statues are built and which are removed. And they remain war heroes of the Alliance.

If Bob the random peasant has a problem with that he can freely speak his mind, but naturally the Ren'dorei squads will be watching him. Closely.

Literally the only thing that should be changed is erasing psycho Sylvanas' signature from Alleria's statue, and that's because it would be like having Hitler's signature somewhere in the centre of Berlin. That's very poor taste. Everything else stays.

so basically if a peasant also asked what happened on Tyr's Hand on the Second War, and Turalyon's involvement there, the Ren'dorei will take him to some re-education camp?

[Varodoc]

I meant the torture part, but I get it

Yep, to me it's incredible that they waited 1 ENTIRE HOUR knowing the gravity of the mission, because they didn't want to hurt the subject.

- - - Updated - - -

so basically if a peasant also asked what happened on Tyr's Hand on the Second War, and Turalyon's involvement there, the Ren'dorei will take him to some re-education camp?

I mean, Blizzard (and I, and most people really) forgot what happened there so I doubt it would matter.

[Shadowtwili]

Valley of Zeroes

This actually also looks quite good tbf.

[Ardenaso]

I mean, Blizzard (and I, and most people really) forgot what happened there so I doubt it would matter.

perhaps it's censored from within the Alliance, I guess? considering that it's one of the few times where the Alliance (of Lordaeron) actually dared to slaughter their own civilians