Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Alydael]

I recognise it's stupid because WoW isn't a p2w game, if it was someone with a credit card would be able to get their character maxed out before people who are playing the game normally. Pay-2-win games suck because they create two tiers of players with the ones using cash being better equipped to meet the challenges of the game in ways non-paying players can't possibly meet. I've played games where you know the dude melting your face has given the developers £20 for the privilege and it is very different to WoW where you think maybe a person in cool armour used in-game currency to hire people to get them that armour, and possibly they got that currency by paying real life cash to another player.

So, if a player buys a token with $$$. Then uses the token gold to buy a boost. During that boost they get gear (through no skill of their own) then they use that gear to "melt your face" (as you say); then you are fine with that.

If the player just uses $$$ in a shop to buy the gear directly (and cut out the middle men) then melts your face; that's now not cool.......

I guess we have to agree to disagree then. I see it as- in both of those scenarios the player did not use any skill to get the gear, they did not overcome any challenges, they demonstrated no mastery, they don't actually "deserve" that gear and they never actually "earned" it.

It really doesn't matter if you call it P 2 Win or something else. The words do not actually matter. There are two camps in this thread:

1) One camp doesn't mind players being able to spend $$$ and get the best gear/ achieves (through whatever means, boosting, etc)

2) The other camp feels you should not able to buy gear with $$$$ (even through some convoluted system like boosting) and that you should actually have to earn your gear.

I am in camp 2. I think it hurts the integrity of the game and its systems (how can Blizz argue that a piece of gear has value and has to be grinded out over weeks when someone can come in and scoop it on a boost for $$$ as soon as they hit max level, what value does KSM or AOTC have when you can basically buy it). Not only that but it can ruin the server. Gold gets consolidated within a few guilds that become so big that there are only a few dominating the server. Outside of those guilds becomes a ghost town because other guilds struggle to maintain rosters etc when going up against the bigger guilds running multiple teams regularly with tons of resources (from all the boosting gold).

Not only that but it makes the game look like trash when you go into any capital and you are just bombarded with constant boosting ads. What was conspicuously absent. Regular runs looking for a PUG just to run........... I wonder why...........

[Daymanmb]

It really doesn't matter if you call it P 2 Win or something else. The words do not actually matter. There are two camps in this thread:

1) One camp doesn't mind players being able to spend $$$ and get the best gear/ achieves (through whatever means, boosting, etc)

2) The other camp feels you should not able to buy gear with $$$$ (even through some convoluted system like boosting) and that you should actually have to earn your gear.

Id argue theres a 3rd camp who doesnt care how you get your gear, as long as your not buying it with real money. As long as the gold is earned, I dont care how its spent.

[rhorle]

Jesus christ... if a player uses a lvl boost and pays for carries in raids, you dont think thats faster than a lvl boosted player progressing through content? I dont even know what to say lol. Do you play WoW?

A person can get into raids as soon as they hit 60. They can have friends carry them, they could have alt to gear up. With the changes in 9.1.5 renown and kothira gear will be super fast to get on alts.

And blizzard makes more money selling the token, than the subscription price the token goes towards. Whats your point?

What is your point? Oh no a company makes money. Of course Blizzard makes money off of it. Did you expect them to do it for free?

[TheLucky1]

Skimming through the last few pages it's generally funny how the discussion of this topic always hugely revolves around semantics instead of actual discussion of the subject matter itself.

Doesn't that often happen with really convoluted and ugly things?

[Dhrizzle]

Who cares? The bleeding edge player isnt buying their gear, the one with the credit card is..

Do you actually think for WoW to be p2w, the person buying with real money, needs to have an advantage over every other player? Bc thats not how it works..

What about comparing the player with the credit card, to another normal player who isnt bleeding edge. Will the credit card buy an advantage over that player?

Yes that's what pay-2-win is, you're paying to have an advantage over people who haven't paid. If there are people who haven't paid who you can't get an advantage over with your money then it isn't pay-2-win.

[Daymanmb]

A person can get into raids as soon as they hit 60. They can have friends carry them, they could have alt to gear up. With the changes in 9.1.5 renown and kothira gear will be super fast to get on alts.

Great, then theyre not buying it. So what?

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Yes that's what pay-2-win is, you're paying to have an advantage over people who haven't paid.

Great, so you agree wow is p2w. Thanks for your contributions.

[rhorle]

Great, then they not buying it. So what?

The what is it counters your claim a player will always be behind a person that does not buy.

[Dhrizzle]

Just answer the question - or are you suggesting that in a pvp game, when two players meet one simply says "hey mate, your gear is better than mine, please delay the arena match until i have the same gear as you". I mean seriously, what the hell kind of logic is that?

I'm saying if I'd just logged in to Warcraft and a level 58 came to duel my level 1 I would absolutely refuse that duel.

[Daymanmb]

What is your point? Oh no a company makes money. Of course Blizzard makes money off of it. Did you expect them to do it for free?

Theyre selling gold. Its not a 1 for 1, token for game time.

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The what is it counters your claim a player will always be behind a person that does not buy.

I didnt say always lmao. Obviously thats not true.

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I'm saying if I'd just logged in to Warcraft and a level 58 came to duel my level 1 I would absolutely refuse that duel.

Fuck you guys are annoying... so what if youre in the world leveling and youre alliance and the booster is horde, trolling low lvl alliance. What choice in the matter is there then?

[Dhrizzle]

So, if a player buys a token with $$$. Then uses the token gold to buy a boost. During that boost they get gear (through no skill of their own) then they use that gear to "melt your face" (as you say); then you are fine with that.

If the player just uses $$$ in a shop to buy the gear directly (and cut out the middle men) then melts your face; that's now not cool.......

I guess we have to agree to disagree then. I see it as- in both of those scenarios the player did not use any skill to get the gear, they did not overcome any challenges, they demonstrated no mastery, they don't actually "deserve" that gear and they never actually "earned" it.

There's a difference. If a player buys a boost, I can play the game normally and get to the same level. At some point there will be no advantage to the money they spent because potentially we both have the same max power.

In a pay-2-win game their money will have bought them an advantage beyond what I could get without paying. There character would have a flat 10% damage and health boost or something.

[rhorle]

Theyre selling gold. Its not a 1 for 1, token for game time.

So it isn't pay to win. It is just a micro transaction. You even just said they are selling gold (which isn't a win) instead of gear (which would be a win).

I didnt say always lmao. Obviously thats not true.

It is implied. Your situation only gives an advantage if it always happens. Otherwise it is just the same thing happening with a different path. Anything you can get with the token can be done with out the token. Even buying the token doesn't guarantee that there is someone around to carry you to achievements and gear. The further along a content tier goes the easier it gets (also the cheaper).

[arkanon]

I'm saying if I'd just logged in to Warcraft and a level 58 came to duel my level 1 I would absolutely refuse that duel.

So you would dodge the dual like you are dodging the question. Ok, same scenario, but the level 58 is horde, on your realm, on a pvp realm, and he heads to a low lvl zone and starts ganking you. Why would you not just fight him? Is it possibly because...................they have a HUGE advantage?

[Dhrizzle]

Great, so you agree wow is p2w. Thanks for your contributions.

You think paying gets you an advantage over every player who hasn't paid? That boostees are somehow completing content and getting geared before the boosters taking them through that content?

[Daymanmb]

There's a difference. If a player buys a boost, I can play the game normally and get to the same level. At some point there will be no advantage to the money they spent because potentially we both have the same max power.

In a pay-2-win game their money will have bought them an advantage beyond what I could get without paying. There character would have a flat 10% damage and health boost or something.

You couldnt be more wrong. Theres a huuuuge time advantage to the money spent.

[rhorle]

Fuck you guys are annoying... so what if youre in the world leveling and youre alliance and the booster is horde, trolling low lvl alliance. What choice in the matter is there then?

Turn warmode off? The same that would happen if a non-boosted character is griefing low level players. Shocking huh?

[Daymanmb]

You think paying gets you an advantage over every player who hasn't paid? That boostees are somehow completing content and getting geared before the boosters taking them through that content?

See you didnt say every player. You added that now, bc you realize youve been backed into a corner and have to pivot the argument.

Yes that's what pay-2-win is, you're paying to have an advantage over people who haven't paid.

Pretty pathetic effort on your part.

[Dhrizzle]

So you would dodge the dual like you are dodging the question. Ok, same scenario, but the level 58 is horde, on your realm, on a pvp realm, and he heads to a low lvl zone and starts ganking you. Why would you not just fight him? Is it possibly because...................they have a HUGE advantage?

Not if a level 60 Alliance character kills him first, and isn't that a scenario that can happen with non-boosted characters? I seem to remember people in Vanilla were perfectly capable of griefing lowbies without having to pay real money.

[Daymanmb]

Turn warmode off? The same that would happen if a non-boosted character is griefing low level players. Shocking huh?

Ohhhhh turning warmode off means the lvl boosted player doesnt have a power advantage. Got it.

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Not if a level 60 Alliance character kills him first, and isn't that a scenario that can happen with non-boosted characters? I seem to remember people in Vanilla were perfectly capable of griefing lowbies without having to pay real money.

Right, getting killed by by a 3rd player means the lvl boosted player doesnt have a power advantage on the low lvl player.. Such a brilliant point.

[Dhrizzle]

See you didnt say every player. You added that now, bc you realize youve been backed into a corner and have to pivot the argument.

You said "every player" in the question I was answering...

Do you actually think for WoW to be p2w, the person buying with real money, needs to have an advantage over every other player?

Yes that's what pay-2-win is, you're paying to have an advantage over people who haven't paid. If there are people who haven't paid who you can't get an advantage over with your money then it isn't pay-2-win.

This isn't a pivot in my argument, this is the point I've been making since I came into this thread.

[Th3Scourge]

With power level multipliers embeded in timegated raiding, rare raid-drops and timegated gem upgrades and timegates legendary crafting...

What exactly do you get with getting a BoE drop for 4-10 TOKENS?

Gearing via vault is time gated, power level modifiers are heavyly time gated - you have to play regularly.

WoW is as far from P2W as possible the existence of tokens. Gold is not valuable outside of raiding and the expected spending for consumables and BoE's for progression advantages at the beginning of each tier/ilvl jump.

Even transmog, that could be made fully P2W without big issues, is highly restricted and most demanding items and achievements are moved to FoS and vanity status.

What you get from tokens is access. You can buy as many boosts as you want.

You can buy a full mythic raid gear funnel run if you have the cash for gold.
You can buy a full heroic raid gear funnel run if you have the cash for gold
You can buy as many mythic 15+ keys as you want if you have the cash for gold
You can buy arena rating for gear and titles
You can even buy torghast runs
You can buy rare mount spawns
You can buy items of the RMAH

The game is as P2W as any other game that is P2W if you want to spend the cash