How would you have made the story more complex ?

[mysticx]

Frankly, you can do only one of the two: A MMO story, or a complex one.

Trying to do both leads us to where we are now: To understand why anything is going on, read a stack of novels, because it's too complex to be shown in-game.

Note that "Not complex" does *not* mean "Uneventful", showing action in a game is easy, what i mean to say is that complicated schemes and hidden motivations (Especially the latter hurt Sylvanas' in-game storyline) are very difficult to show in a game (Even in cinematics) in a way that doesn't feel forced.

[VladlTutushkin]

I think you're asking WoW to be something it isn't. WoW is at its best when pitting good against evil. Moving away from this is what's really damaged the game's narrative.

When one faction is evil but cannot be punished BECAUSE its a faction then this formula demolishes the whole game.

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Does anyone remember any of the evil villains that weren't Arthas or Garrosh?

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FFXIV does a decent job of telling a JRPG story. The first 100 hours of ARR are an infamous slog but after that each expansion's story is a decently paced 40 hour affair. That being said, FFXIV's storytelling is still hamstrung by the MMO format.

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While it's pretty obvious that Danuser and friends don't respect the world Metzen created, I think there are other factors at play here. It's not that hard to write a good story, and yet big budget entertainment regularly churns out crappy stories. Screenwriters make the least amount of money of anyone in the industry despite how much effort they put into their work. Hollywood and game devs invest all of this money into their CGI and big name voice actors, but if they even set aside a small fraction of that to hire quality writers, the story writing would improve by leaps and bounds. And also making sure that the stories aren't drafted 20+ times, sucking out their soul and feeling like they were written by committee.

Danuser has pretty fucken big salary, considering how he basically just writes his waifu fanfiction at this point.

But again, american salaries look like fucken dragon’s hoard compared to Russia.

[Palapop]

Do we need more "complex" story? Or we should rather go for higher quality story?

People (including wow devs) REALLY need to learn that sometimes THE LESS IS MORE.

ESPECIALLY when it's about in-game chores and borrowed powers.

[Aucald]

Without getting into plot-point specifics, these are the basic guidelines I would've followed if I were in charge of WoW's narrative:

1.) Overall reduction in scale. External threats are fine (e.g. the Scourge, the Legion, the Void, etc.), but the world doesn't need to be fully engulfed in turmoil every expansion or content patch.

2.) Stronger focus on zone stories, including endgame overworld content. The leveling story arcs don't need to roughly terminate once the PC reaches max-level.

3.) Decentralize from capitol city/sanctuary hubs. Broader focus on the greater world as a whole, especially in the areas of exploration and discovery.

4.) Reduction of emphasis on the faction conflict. The Horde and Alliance can still be hostile to one another, with bad relations due to perceived encroachment or regional hostilities. But they don't need to declare total war on one another routinely. Confine the faction conflict to PvP-centric areas as regional conflicts.

5.) Keep the focus primarily on Azeroth itself, and keep unveiling new lands and/or continents as the Horde and Alliance race to claim resources and forge relationships with known and unknown civilizations.

6.) Add dynamism to the world via changing landscapes and live events. Have systems in place where freeholds can be won or lost based on the actions of the players - with the possibility of server/story divergence on the micro scale. Examples would be a Horde or Alliance settlement that may not always have been successfully established, loss of secure access to specific zones, etc.

[masterjc]

WoW
1. add more small faction hubs to enemy zones. like one near Darkshire,where 2 forsaken aphotecaries give several quests. worse part is that there are lots of zones where only one faction dwells and other faction players have no idea what is happening there
2. add max level short questlines or two for every zone. and upgrade it in every expansion or major patch, so story stays relevant and everything seems to be up to date
3. add some more stuff beyond third world factions like Defias,Argus Wake, Syndicate, burning blade and so on. but add these stuff for both factions. for example, alliance players have no idea what is happening in tirisfal. while horde has no idea what is happening in dun morogh and so on.

factions might have several small quests that send you to enemy territory. like horde want to get hokd in dun morogh and seek out frostmane tribe trolls or alliance seek contacts to scarlet crusade or kul tiran remnants in tiragarde keep and so on. it could work like Grizzly Hulls worgen quests. where u help guys who appear sort of cult and so on.
3. give some hints about certain places using npc chat or dialogues or quests. for example, everything north of barrens was kaldorei territory. and suddenly winterspring has no elven bases. and neutral goblins pop up. who seem to have no good relationship with elves in wc3.
4. we can have alliance/horde version of quests and areas. for example there was a quest in Hellfire. alliance players helped Draenei priest cleanse demonic blood pools and succeed. while horde players are sent on behalf of Bloid elves to kill draenei priest and his guards. because they used these fel pools we can have both quests so both factions know what is in that area. and have reasons to be there. while lorewise Horde version would be cannon. it can be used in lots of places
5. give story more reasoning.
alliance players are ordered to scare vulpera. so they wont help horde. but do not want make them enemies

for gameplay reasons, alliance playwrs have no interraction with vulpera who arr simple unfriendky. while they are somehow friendly with horde. for vulpera both factions should be same. and during story decide what is better.

also nightborne joining horde. okay but story beyond it is dumb as fuck.

make nightborne more arrogant let them reach for kaldorei and let Tyrande offer them help but make her own demands. because she is suspicious of them. while sindorei and Liandrin would feel more friendly. bexause rhey went through similar shit and ask nothing in return. nightborne are mor estubborn and feel what tyrande asks might make them secondary faction and thus choose going after horde.
bow we have kaldorei helping shaldorei. even that druid gives them arcan dor.and these bastards instead of grattitude fight against their kin and return kindness with evil. that is dumb

we could have that druid fail with arcan dor. and sindorei providing mana cells untill shaldorei figure out their own shit. like reqruiting botanists from suramar who work with sindoirei botanists to fix arcandor

thus both races would have druids too. and would be better story with less plotholes

and so on

[Talrath]

While it's pretty obvious that Danuser and friends don't respect the world Metzen created, I think there are other factors at play here. It's not that hard to write a good story, and yet big budget entertainment regularly churns out crappy stories. Screenwriters make the least amount of money of anyone in the industry despite how much effort they put into their work. Hollywood and game devs invest all of this money into their CGI and big name voice actors, but if they even set aside a small fraction of that to hire quality writers, the story writing would improve by leaps and bounds. And also making sure that the stories aren't drafted 20+ times, sucking out their soul and feeling like they were written by committee.

Think danuser still earns quite alot even as a so called writer. Really think they dont care about the lore anymore and are just there for the money.

[Biomega]

It's hard to give alternative suggestions if we don't know where this is all going.

Part of the problem with SL's story is that we have no fucking idea what is even happening. Everything is so vague and mysterious it's actually made me care LESS about things, rather than more. Who IS the jailer, really? What is his end goal? What was his initial crime? How does Sylvanas fit into this, precisely? What was she promised? What was she after? And so on and so on.

Right now we have zero motivation established beyond "the Jailer wants to do something BAD", for which we have only the word of people who are opposed to him from the start; so whether or not it's really something bad, or something objectionable, or whatever, is all up in the air until we actually find out what it is. Same with Sylvanas' motivation. It's easy to condemn her for what she did on the face value of it (killing = bad) but we have no idea about her overlying motives, goals, and ultimate agenda. It's not hard to imagine a hypothetical where her actions could have been if not morally acceptable then at least pragmatically justified (e.g. killing some people > killing all people). But she could also just have been a selfish psycho. Who knows. Not me, because they're keeping things so cryptic and vague they probably don't know where they're going themselves.

[Shadowferal]

It's hard to give alternative suggestions if we don't know where this is all going.

Well, part of my ideas above would not include Shadowlands for at least another 5-6 years. There would be too much to fill in the blanks. When considering alternative scenarios that TBC and MoP gave such a wealth of added dimension I can't conceive any reason for WoD to even exist.

[sighy]

Simply put? Let it play out from both perspectives, where both sides believe they're doing the right thing regardless of whether it objectively is or isn't, because that's irrelevant to the story.

But to be honest to really address the shortcomings of the current day story they need to go back to the basic fundamentals instead of the JJ abrahams mysterybox fiesta that's happening now and effectively hamstrings everything, which has even a shred of potential.

[Polyxo]

1. I would stop making things so 'interconnected'. It makes a big world smaller, and it's a cheap 'big reveal' device that doesn't really make things more exciting unless you've actually set the stage for it.

2. I would delve into different themes relating to the expansion and stories. There were some big opportunities that I think the writers missed with some of the mediocre/poor expansions. Warlords of Draenor could've really stuck it out with featuring and exploring the interactions between the warlords, and deal with concepts like unity vs infighting. Instead of being about old gods and big bads pulling the strings, Battle for Azeroth could've been a story about the Horde and Alliance starting out in a cold war, and then escalating into more and more intense and desperate fighting as they employ more and more devastating weapons, because they're worried about the other side using it first.

3. I would make a broader variety of antagonists. I use the term antagonists specifically because not all of them should be villains. Blizzard seems to have two types of antagonists: villains that are super evil big bads that taunt the players, talk about how evil they are, and want to make things suck for everyone, and then good guys that are corrupted by the big bads and become villains. That's okay sometimes, but it's a little monotonous. I would look for new ideas. Something like the void lords should be more impersonal, like a fundamental force in the universe, like the Nothing from the Neverending Story. You could have bad guys that genuinely think they're good guys (maybe titans here to reverse the curse of flesh, and genuinely want to help). You could have heroes that, instead of being corrupted into being evil, are just doing bad things for selfish or desperate, or panicked reasons, or out of loyalty to someone else. You could have animal species that are growing out of control.

[Soon-TM]

Simply put? Let it play out from both perspectives, where both sides believe they're doing the right thing regardless of whether it objectively is or isn't, because that's irrelevant to the story.

But to be honest to really address the shortcomings of the current day story they need to go back to the basic fundamentals instead of the JJ abrahams mysterybox fiesta that's happening now and effectively hamstrings everything, which has even a shred of potential.

This is basically what "morally grey" actually amounts to, instead of the dumpster fire that was all of BfA and a good chunk of SL so far.

[Feanoro]

Is "hire writers worth a damn" an option?

[cocomen2]

Create a third faction. Horde, Alliance, *neither*
Third faction ironically would be viewed as two differing factions; night elf and tauren for one; ethereal and goblin the other.
Later, well...toying with the idea of adding pandaren to the former, and mantid to the latter.

How i feel it should be

1. Alliance - for good boys and hippy.

2. Horde -for bad guys that love to think they are "good guys".

3. Union -for bad guys that are capable to cope with fact that they are Evil.


Union of Evil,races that didn't make into playable roster and have more than two legs. (Centaur leadership)

As you can see its Pure Evil, you can unlock them in store for 49.99$, you can allow other players to use you as mount but only these players who already bought centaur race pack.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Union of Evil,races that didn't make into playable roster and have more than two legs. (Centaur leadership)

As you can see its Pure Evil, you can unlock them in store for 49.99$, you can allow other players to use you as mount but only these players who already bought centaur race pack.

Really sad that Centaur never became a playable race. Yes the lore made them out to be ridiculously evil but they were aesthetically so cool. Crowfall is like the only other game that ever did them.

[Sondrelk]

Is "hire writers worth a damn" an option?

The problem isn't necessarily the writers. The problem is that the very concept of an MMO doesn't allow for complicated stories to be told easily.
An MMO is more suited to telling small stories with a small amount of big payoffs.

Secondly the problem is that WoW has such a quick turnaround for stories (comparatively), and for that matter such a steady stream that ideas are not really allowed to sink in and get considered in the bigger picture.
Writers cannot course correct effectively because by the time the faults are obvious the work has already begun on the plot that will come after.
Work has already begun on the final patch of Shadowlands, and whatever is written for that patch needs to consider not just what has been written already, but what assets are made and likely even what needs to happen for the leadup to the next expansion.

[Soon-TM]

The story doesn't need more complexity, it needs much more coherence and even less cosmic mumbo jumbo.

[Combatbutler]

To do that the very world would needed to be overhauled, the idea that there are just a handful of big cities on the entire planet is utterly ridiculous the world feels incredible small and constrained, each race would effectively need at least 20 cities under their name all with somewhat distinct cultural quirks, many in ruins with survivors trying to rebuild them, each city would have internal rivalries and conflicts over influence of wealth, between merchants, nobles, priesthoods etc. diverse cities would have different districts for the races, though they coexist tension would be high with crime syndicates fanning the flames in order to profit from it etc.

I could go on and on about it, but I don't feel like investing that much time.

[Soon-TM]

I could go on and on about it, but I don't feel like investing that much time.

I share the sentiment. I really think that a good starting point would be making (remarkably) bigger zones, it looks like one of the key development points since WoD has been "how can we make the world as obnoxious to get across as possible", which is especially evident in the tiny, cramped af zones of SL.

Oh, and every racial capital should be at least the size of Suramar, roughly speaking.

[sighy]

The story doesn't need more complexity, it needs much more coherence and even less cosmic mumbo jumbo.

I think this stuff fundamentally ties to a storytelling concept known as Czechov's gun. A short abbridged description would be that everything you introduce should be relevant to the story. And while i do enjoy neat trivia about cosmic mumbo jumbo... it makes for poor storytelling, when there isn'T a real story to tie it together.

[Shadowferal]

My ideas would definitely demand that the game be taken offline for at least a year because a lot would change. Much of it would be very involved with the third factions.