Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[kaminaris]

You can insert your fingers in your ears all you want, demand is irrelevant if supply is illegal.
Not everyone wants to commit tax fraud pre-token in order to satisfy your argument.

Yeah no, that is how tcg worked. It was 100% legal.

[nvaelz]

Great, then we agree on that levels = power. Then obtaining gear, achivs, titles & mounts via token(gold) = power. Better gear = player power. Obtain certain achivs = Gains access to do more content. Therefore buying token = Skip content to reach the stage of being relevant.

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Indeed. Thats why token+boosting/carries are so popular. The leveling is considered dogshit content, so Blizzard offers paid boost. The gearing and obtaining player power at 60 is not a quickly done task. It takes long time, especially if you dont have lots of friends and a strong guild.

All of the content is there to do yes, but its a tedious and long ass task to complete just to reach a somewhat relevant stage.

So its easier to flesh out a few token runs, get the stuff you need and drop doing kortia, bgs/arena or pug dungeons/raids.

For me personally I wouldn't mind having to grind alot of content even if it's tedious, it's just that the time gates are so impossible to breach. I'd have to clear 4 weeks of content for max ilvl legendary, and I'd never be able to get sockets(10% movement speed and like 90 secondary stat??) nor would I get any decent ilvl on conduits. So in the back of my mind I feel like I'm missing out and I don't want to gear an alt that way.

[Raelbo]

And the top guilds did.

No they did not. Stopping lying.

For one, you didnt rebut anything... comparing Airbnb to WoW gold selling is pretty fallacious, if only for the fact that you can choose not to use Airbnb and get the service elsewhere without the middle man.

How exactly is that even relevant? It doesn't change the facts regarding the service that Blizzard is selling and that this service is not selling gold.

You dont have that luxury with WoW without breaking the ToS. Thats not even mentioning the fact that blizzard is selling their own products, while Airbnb is a host site for other people selling their products.. Should I go on?

Not unless you can bring up something that's actually pertinent to the discussion.

Secondly, what service is Blizzard facilitating that requires them to profit off of gold selling?

The service is the AH - listing the token on a platform that it makes it available for other players to buy. Nothing requires them to profit from it, but why shouldn't they?

Theyre not a "middle man" when I buy a month of game time from the store, but suddenly they become one when I buy a token from the store?

Yes. They're offering 2 different services. Service 1 is supplying a product (game time). Service 2 is facilitating a transaction of gold for cash between 2 players.

How exactly can you lack the ability to understand such a simple concept?

[crusadernero]

Can boosts not be advantageous on more than one front? It does save time, but isnt also buying power?

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I dislike the store option of boosting characters just as much as the token. Its a general sickness within the game when its easier, quicker(and sometimes better) to just buy boosts in order to skip content. Instead of making an engaging world to interact with, Blizzard tells us "yeah the world is shit, here buy a boost so you dont need to experience it".

Same goes for the token. Its not easy & quick to gear up, obtain achivs/titles/mounts at max level. A fresh 60 has ALOT of grinding to do on various fronts to get at a relevant gear level. You also gotta rely on others to obtain these things, and that doesnt always go well. Blizzard hids these cool rewards behind certain achivs/raids, but to get them is easier said then done. We might be looking at weeks(if not months) of gearing up, find a guild you like & have a raid schedule you can commit to and these players gotta be good enough.

Just as with leveling, gearing up to a relevant stage is bad and tedious. Instead of enhancing and enticing us to play at max lvl with fun and engaging content, its riddled with a slooow and frustrating process. The stuff you actually want(BIS/mounts) can be months down the line.

So thats where players are. A lvl 1 player might think "why should I invest X amount of hours into leveling when I can just buy a boost and skip it?"

A fresh lvl 60 might think "why should I invest X amount of hours(weeks/months) into the painfully slow process of gearing up to being relevant when I can just buy token+boosts?"

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For me personally I wouldn't mind having to grind alot of content even if it's tedious, it's just that the time gates are so impossible to breach. I'd have to clear 4 weeks of content for max ilvl legendary, and I'd never be able to get sockets(10% movement speed and like 90 secondary stat??) nor would I get any decent ilvl on conduits. So in the back of my mind I feel like I'm missing out and I don't want to gear an alt that way.

yes, its a big issue that Blizzard has put in these time gated systems in the game. It sucks and is one of the reasons I dont bother with retail wow alot anymore. I dont even understand why they choose to do it like this. No one asked for it, no one wants it. Noe one needs it.

[Daymanmb]

No they did not. Stopping lying.



How exactly is that even relevant? It doesn't change the facts regarding the service that Blizzard is selling and that this service is not selling gold.



Not unless you can bring up something that's actually pertinent to the discussion.



The service is the AH - listing the token on a platform that it makes it available for other players to buy. Nothing requires them to profit from it, but why shouldn't they?



Yes. They're offering 2 different services. Service 1 is supplying a product (game time). Service 2 is facilitating a transaction of gold for cash between 2 players.

How exactly can you lack the ability to understand such a simple concept?

Yes they did. The post I responded to didnt say guilds bought gold with tokens, so chill the fuck out and l2read.

Theyre selling gold

AH isnt a paid service

Both are products, theyre virtually the same, Blizzard just makes more money selling gold than game time. Justify it how ever you want, it doesnt really matter.

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I dislike the store option of boosting characters just as much as the token. Its a general sickness within the game when its easier, quicker(and sometimes better) to just buy boosts in order to skip content. Instead of making an engaging world to interact with, Blizzard tells us "yeah the world is shit, here buy a boost so you dont need to experience it".

Same goes for the token. Its not easy & quick to gear up, obtain achivs/titles/mounts at max level. A fresh 60 has ALOT of grinding to do on various fronts to get at a relevant gear level. You also gotta rely on others to obtain these things, and that doesnt always go well. Blizzard hids these cool rewards behind certain achivs/raids, but to get them is easier said then done. We might be looking at weeks(if not months) of gearing up, find a guild you like & have a raid schedule you can commit to and these players gotta be good enough.

Just as with leveling, gearing up to a relevant stage is bad and tedious. Instead of enhancing and enticing us to play at max lvl with fun and engaging content, its riddled with a slooow and frustrating process. The stuff you actually want(BIS/mounts) can be months down the line.

So thats where players are. A lvl 1 player might think "why should I invest X amount of hours into leveling when I can just buy a boost and skip it?"

A fresh lvl 60 might think "why should I invest X amount of hours(weeks/months) into the painfully slow process of gearing up to being relevant when I can just buy token+boosts?"

Im with you on all of that.

[Raelbo]

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w.

That is not the definition of p2w at all though.

p2w specifically means that you acquire an advantage that cannot be acquired (realistically) without spending money. For this reason, in practice, a p2w game will never have just one player using it.

[crusadernero]

It would be quite interesting if Blizzard suddenly decided to remove mythic raids and/or m+, or at the very least the cool rewards hidden behind them.

Imagine if they made all of the content more accessible for everyone(and by that I dont mean LFR). imagine if the cool rewards from each content patch(like mounts) were obtainable for most people.

I would vager that if AOTC(and mounts tied to it) was a reward most people could obtain fairly easily by playing the game on the regular while getting good gear at a reasonable pace, boosting would go down. Or they just removed those rewards tied to raids and moved them to other sections of the game as a reward.

The only ones who would cry are the ones doing m+20 or higher keys and mythic raiders.

[nvaelz]

I dislike the store option of boosting characters just as much as the token. Its a general sickness within the game when its easier, quicker(and sometimes better) to just buy boosts in order to skip content. Instead of making an engaging world to interact with, Blizzard tells us "yeah the world is shit, here buy a boost so you dont need to experience it".

Same goes for the token. Its not easy & quick to gear up, obtain achivs/titles/mounts at max level. A fresh 60 has ALOT of grinding to do on various fronts to get at a relevant gear level. You also gotta rely on others to obtain these things, and that doesnt always go well. Blizzard hids these cool rewards behind certain achivs/raids, but to get them is easier said then done. We might be looking at weeks(if not months) of gearing up, find a guild you like & have a raid schedule you can commit to and these players gotta be good enough.

Just as with leveling, gearing up to a relevant stage is bad and tedious. Instead of enhancing and enticing us to play at max lvl with fun and engaging content, its riddled with a slooow and frustrating process. The stuff you actually want(BIS/mounts) can be months down the line.

So thats where players are. A lvl 1 player might think "why should I invest X amount of hours into leveling when I can just buy a boost and skip it?"

A fresh lvl 60 might think "why should I invest X amount of hours(weeks/months) into the painfully slow process of gearing up to being relevant when I can just buy token+boosts?"

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yes, its a big issue that Blizzard has put in these time gated systems in the game. It sucks and is one of the reasons I dont bother with retail wow alot anymore. I dont even understand why they choose to do it like this. No one asked for it, no one wants it. Noe one needs it.

I'd assume it's because they want to give active players some form of elitist prestige that they think make people feel good about themselves(being unreachably superior to others) which is really stupid.

[Krawu]

Just to hammer my stance home for you....

Your stance isn't wrong, but is is too fundamentalist to be useful.

Technically nobody even has to buy the advantage. As long as you can pay real money for any kind of gameplay advantage it's pay to win.

The real question is whether the game deserves to be scorned for it because by this definition, every online game out there is p2w. If nothing else, you can always buy an account through unlicensed 3rd party channels.´

So all online games are p2w in a literal sense, but some through no fault of their own. There's a difference between how we perceive games where the publisher is selling those advantages or is unwilling to stop third parties from doing so, and games where the publisher makes a good-faith effort to stop those activities but is unable to do so.

[crusadernero]

That is not the definition of p2w at all though.

p2w specifically means that you acquire an advantage that cannot be acquired (realistically) without spending money. For this reason, in practice, a p2w game will never have just one player using it.

But thats the brilliance of it. The big brain companies have understood that openly and obvious p2w schemes are very frowned upon, so they make the whole ordeal more convoluded and blurry. This thread alone proves that there are people out there thinking its not p2w at max lvl in wow. When in fact the token facilitates this behaviour.

The only change here is that you gotta exchange your real money for virtual goal to buy boosts & carries. Thats the only difference. Its just an extra hurdle for players to do. Its that extra hurdle that makes sure that the game aint obvious p2w. Thats the brilliance of it!

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I'd assume it's because they want to give active players some form of elitist prestige that they think make people feel good about themselves(being unreachably superior to others) which is really stupid.

Yes, and these people are the ones carrying out the boosts that the regular player really wants(because of gear, mounts, titles, achivs).

[nvaelz]

Your stance isn't wrong, but is is too fundamentalist to be useful.

Technically nobody even has to buy the advantage. As long as you can pay real money for any kind of gameplay advantage it's pay to win.

The real question is whether the game deserves to be scorned for it because by this definition, every online game out there is p2w. If nothing else, you can always buy an account through unlicensed 3rd party channels.´

So all online games are p2w in a literal sense, but some through no fault of their own. There's a difference between how we perceive games where the publisher is selling those advantages or is unwilling to stop third parties from doing so, and games where the publisher makes a good-faith effort to stop those activities but is unable to do so.

Some people steal apples, some people grow apples, some people own apples, some people sell apples, some people buy apples, etc. This whole topic is nonsense if there's no objective grasp on human interactions.

And obviously I mean there isn't... that's prolly why this thread has like a million posts.

Yes, and these people are the ones carrying out the boosts that the regular player really wants(because of gear, mounts, titles, achivs).

It's how it is.

[Dhrizzle]

But thats the brilliance of it. The big brain companies have understood that openly and obvious p2w schemes are very frowned upon, so they make the whole ordeal more convoluded and blurry. This thread alone proves that there are people out there thinking its not p2w at max lvl in wow. When in fact the token facilitates this behaviour.

It's not exactly big-brained. Companies introduced pay-2-win microtransactions, players largely rejected the games. Companies introduce microtransactions that save time or offer convenience, players largely shrug and carry on playing. Companies avoid the pay-2-win mechanics and stick with the convenience stuff.

[crusadernero]

It's not exactly big-brained. Companies introduced pay-2-win microtransactions, players largely rejected the games. Companies introduce microtransactions that save time or offer convenience, players largely shrug and carry on playing. Companies avoid the pay-2-win mechanics and stick with the convenience stuff.

wait - what? "save time", "offer convenience" ? Its literally "buy this token, buy boosts so you can skip playing the game and obtain things that enhances your character". Its not "saving time" or "convenience". Its literally buying into content that propells your character into more power.

Yes it saves you time, LOTS of time. Lots and lots of time. Yes you can get the stuff via just playing, but Blizzard has made sure its a shite experience to obtain it by playing, so better off buying the token for boosts.

BTW - In obvious blantant pw2 games - what does buying stuff there means? If you buy good gear = pw2. But we can just flip this around. Its not p2w at all. In fact, its a time saver and its a convenience. You know, instead of playing the game and obtain stuff, you pay for it so you save time. and its convinient and great too, cause you can watch netflix while doing so.

[Usernameforforums]

Theyre buying advantages.

Not really. This game is more skill than gear. If you play like a potato then you’re just wasting money.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's not exactly big-brained. Companies introduced pay-2-win microtransactions, players largely rejected the games. Companies introduce microtransactions that save time or offer convenience, players largely shrug and carry on playing. Companies avoid the pay-2-win mechanics and stick with the convenience stuff.

....That's literally p2w. If you can spend money to skip large portions of the game and/or gain character power, that's p2w.

[Dhrizzle]

wait - what? "save time", "offer convenience" ? Its literally "buy this token, buy boosts so you can skip playing the game and obtain things that enhances your character". Its not "saving time" or "convenience". Its literally buying into content that propells your character into more power.

Yes it saves you time, LOTS of time. Lots and lots of time. Yes you can get the stuff via just playing, but Blizzard has made sure its a shite experience to obtain it by playing, so better off buying the token for boosts.

Leveling and grinding gold are not nearly as arduous or difficult as you seem to think, especially if you follow a guide or download auction add-ons.

BTW - In obvious blantant pw2 games - what does buying stuff there means? If you buy good gear = pw2. But we can just flip this around. Its not p2w at all. In fact, its a time saver and its a convenience. You know, instead of playing the game and obtain stuff, you pay for it so you save time. and its convinient and great too, cause you can watch netflix while doing so.

In actual pay-2-win games you buy enhancements to play that can not be gained any other way. In WoW terms think of it as getting loot with and extra 10 ilvls or just a 20% permanent health/damage buff.

BTW if your biggest concern is watching Netflix while you play it is very easy to do so while leveling and grinding gold through normal gameplay.

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....That's literally p2w. If you can spend money to skip large portions of the game and/or gain character power, that's p2w.

P2w is when you can spend cash on an advantage other players can't match unless they also pay cash. For example imagine the boost gave you a top level character with gear more powerful than Mythic raids and a 20% damage buff. Then it would be pay-2-win as someone who isn't paying would never be able to get their character to the same level no matter how much they play.

[TheRevenantHero]

Leveling and grinding gold are not nearly as arduous or difficult as you seem to think, especially if you follow a guide or download auction add-ons.



In actual pay-2-win games you buy enhancements to play that can not be gained any other way. In WoW terms think of it as getting loot with and extra 10 ilvls or just a 20% permanent health/damage buff.

BTW if your biggest concern is watching Netflix while you play it is very easy to do so while leveling and grinding gold through normal gameplay.

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P2w is when you can spend cash on an advantage other players can't match unless they also pay cash. For example imagine the boost gave you a top level character with gear more powerful than Mythic raids and a 20% damage buff. Then it would be pay-2-win as someone who isn't paying would never be able to get their character to the same level no matter how much they play.

No. That is NOT strictly what p2w is. That's what WoW players claim is p2w to avoid saying WoW is p2w. Paying $60 and skipping a large swath of content is 100% p2w.

[Vorkreist]

P2w is when you can spend cash on an advantage other players can't match unless they also pay cash. For example imagine the boost gave you a top level character with gear more powerful than Mythic raids and a 20% damage buff. Then it would be pay-2-win as someone who isn't paying would never be able to get their character to the same level no matter how much they play.

But you are sadly wrong. If you look at any obviously acknowledged p2w or even the mobile p2w stuff its always stuff that you can theoretically grind if you spend extra 1000 hours and 1000 days to get what you can buy with 100 bucks in 2 min. The vast majority of power and character advancement in most pay2win games are not theoretically locked from non-paying players.
So yes WoW Token is as pay2win as anything can be.

[Dhrizzle]

No. That is NOT strictly what p2w is. That's what WoW players claim is p2w to avoid saying WoW is p2w. Paying $60 and skipping a large swath of content is 100% p2w.

That's what gamers decided p2w is when these sorts of microtransactions became an issue. It's why World of Tanks players were fine with the devs selling tanks that you could save up in-game currency to buy but hated the cash-only golden ammo that ignores armour, and RIFT players didn't care about XP boost potions on the store but took issue with extra item slots being opened up by cash.

I get why you might not like people being able to buy these sorts of convenience services but why dumb down the conversation by stretching the term "pay-2-win" to cover all sorts of MTX and not just p2w situations?

[Drusin]

Johnny come lately, you wrong, bud. Paying real money for advantages is p2w

sounds more like p2a to me