Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Aggressive]

Hence a boost is P2W.

I know RMT goes against the EULA, but what's behind that is that they were getting(or giving) a small advantage through gold transactions, which (once again) can be bought with real money.

Is the game P2W? Yes, not in a big (mobile game) kinda way but it is.

Is it that terrible? that's debatable, it has generated some issues, but also some "benefits".

To be honest. Alot of people think WoW isn't pay to win. But they game is definitely pay to win. I remember in Shadowlands when I was playing it and I wanted to gear my rogue as fast as possible and people were like buy 2 or 3 tokens, sell them on the AH, and then use the gold to buy gear to get to said iLvL.So I highly doubt I was the one one who did this shit. That in my eyes makes the game pay to win.

I was able to get into mythics and do some +15's. So the game is definitely pay to win.

[Captain Proton]

To be honest. Alot of people think WoW isn't pay to win. But they game is definitely pay to win. I remember in Shadowlands when I was playing it and I wanted to gear my rogue as fast as possible and people were like buy 2 or 3 tokens, sell them on the AH, and then use the gold to buy gear to get to said iLvL.So I highly doubt I was the one one who did this shit. That in my eyes makes the game pay to win.

I was able to get into mythics and do some +15's. So the game is definitely pay to win.

Gold is easy to make ingame and can purchase boosts/gear as well. Try again.

[TheRevenantHero]

Ah you still don't understand, that's alright. There's nothing you can't gain by playing. It's not Pay to win. Instead of obsessing over the definition of advantage, you should actually see wtf pay to win actually is.

It literally doesn't matter if you can or can't gain it by playing the game. The point is you are actively purchasing power for your character and that's why it's p2w. I really don't understand why you are doing mental gymnastics to avoid admitting it's p2w.

[Aggressive]

Gold is easy to make ingame and can purchase boosts/gear as well. Try again.

Nope. I'm not going to try again. I stick with what I said above. Like it or not. I'm sticking with it. Sorry. If that offends you.

[Captain Proton]

It literally doesn't matter if you can or can't gain it by playing the game. The point is you are actively purchasing power for your character and that's why it's p2w. I really don't understand why you are doing mental gymnastics to avoid admitting it's p2w.

It literally does. I don't understand why you are doing mental gymnastics to stretch the definition of p2w to fit wow.

Nope. I'm not going to try again. I stick with what I said above. Like it or not. I'm sticking with it. Sorry. If that offends you.

I accept your choice to be wrong.

[Vorkreist]

And in a p2w game the "free" paths make it nigh impossible to get to the same level as a paying player. For example if it did take 3 years for a non-paying player to be able to clear a Mythic raid then WoW would be p2w as it would be impossible to clear them within the life cycle of the patch or even the expansion.

With WoW we know that can't be the case as players have to be capable of clearing the content before they can sell the boosts.

Wait what ? Now you are telling me bob de average wow whale has magical raiding skills to do mythic progression in a few months if he wants ?
You make no sense and again these mental gymnastics to try and defend this p2w cancer feature are weird.

[TheRevenantHero]

It literally does. I don't understand why you are doing mental gymnastics to stretch the definition of p2w to fit wow.



I accept your choice to be wrong.

It really really doesn't. Numerous people have explained why it's p2w. You're the one doing mental gymnastics. You can call it pay-for-convenience or whatever but you're completely wrong in saying it's not p2w at all.

[Cthulhu 2020]

If they were paying $$ for the runs, then yes. Paying money for gold and then using gold for stuff is not pay to win.

It's mindblowing that people can have this mindset unironically.

"If you pay IRL $$ for something, it's P2W, but if you pay IRL $$ for gold and use that gold to buy something, it's not pay 2 win."

Like, seriously, how can you possibly think like this? I realize you've rationalized it in your head, but it's mind boggling that people can be THIS stubborn to hold onto their viewpoint that they completely defy logic.

You pay IRL money, you get carries and gear out of it. The end. Having that one extra step doesn't make it any different.

[Neotart]

I don't understand why people try to make this seem complicated, bottom line, WoW has always been pay to win, even before the WoW token, The WoW token make it a bit simpler.

Even though Blizzard doesn't allow it. you can buy carries and gear of all sorts from 3rd party sites, with that, its P2W.

[Aggressive]

It literally does. I don't understand why you are doing mental gymnastics to stretch the definition of p2w to fit wow.



I accept your choice to be wrong.

Fine. Moving on to the next person.

[Vorkreist]

It literally does. I don't understand why you are doing mental gymnastics to stretch the definition of p2w to fit wow.

We get it, you like to buy stuff in-game with cash.

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I don't understand why people try to make this seem complicated

Just weirdos who like the token and use it, that's why they come here with the cringe defences for this p2w feature.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Gold is easy to make ingame and can purchase boosts/gear as well. Try again.

In Aion, I could either play the game and earn powerful rewards, or I could swipe my credit card and get those rewards instantly. Just because you CAN earn the rewards through gameplay does not make being able to buy them any less pay to win. If you're paying IRL cash and you gain a hard achievement or loot reward without putting in the skill-based time to earn it, then it's damaged the integrity of the game. You can argue all day and night over the exact specific definition of what "winning" but the only reason the defenders of this are even trying to play the semantic game over what "winning" is, is because they all know and realize that the integrity of WoW has been permanently damaged by this.

When you beat Ragnaros and had peridition's blade back in 2005, people KNEW you earned that shit. Now you can run around town and know that a huge number of people wearing fancy gear just swiped their credit card for it.

And what's most important is, the staunch defenders of this don't seem to care about the health or the future of the game, because WoW is in rapid decline. People are leaving for numerous reasons, and many bemoan that their achievements don't feel special any more because anyone can buy them now.

If you want a dead game, keep pretending this is all fine and dandy. Keep arguing about the exact definition of "winning" is because at the end of the day, you know we're right, and it's the only thing you can do to defend your position.

[crusadernero]

Gold is easy to make ingame and can purchase boosts/gear as well. Try again.

Thats like saying clearing mythic raids is easy. You know, cause some people do it. I respect those that play the AH(or, I used to, now gold literally has no meaning in wow), cause that in itself is(was) a skill. It took time, knowledge and commitment.

Joe the average wow player dont farm gold in a maximized way. He plays the game and get the gold to cover the basics(proff stuff++). Just like most people dont care or aint good enough for mythic raids, most people dont care or are good enough to bother with farming huge amount of gold. Being rich with gold in game used to mean something, now it means jack shit. I actually feel sorry for the good gold farmers cause gold has no value(well except for the prize of token I guess). It was a respected way to play wow, not anymore.

The token is not there to help people buy flasks or other proffesion materials. Its not there to cover your repair bill or any other miniscule thing that cost gold. If that were the case, every token buying player would buy 1 each xpac and be covered througout the whole xpac.

The token is there so people can go and get the mounts, titles, achivs & gear in raids, m+ or arena. Since there literally aint no other venues to obtain these stuff, people go to the token.

Imagine if Blizzard made an alternative for these rewards, a different approach to get these mounts. The only ones who would cry about it are those that do the boosting. No one else.

[Raelbo]

[B]can you or can you not log in, buy token, get gold and obtain gear, mounts, titles & achivs right now and in the forseable future? You can.

As I have said repeatedly, that is not an adequate qualifier for testing whether a system is p2w. The real question you need to ask is:

can a token get you an advantage that is not reasonably easy to obtain by playing the game?. No. No it can't.

PS: you should know that all your talk about gear, mounts, titles and achievements is actually just a red herring. You cannot buy those things with tokens. You can buy gold. And yes, of course gold can be used to help in the acquisition of these things, but it remains an important distinction because anything that you can achieve with a token can be equally achieved by simply acquiring gold by any other method.

Therefore, the definitive test of whether tokens are a p2w mechanic boils down to the simple question of whether or not it is feasible to acquire that amount of gold in-game, or whether you are forced to resort to tokens. And given the fact that all gold acquired via token is obtained from other players, this condition can never be met. Ergo tokens cannot be p2w.

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I don't understand why people try to make this seem complicated, bottom line, WoW has always been pay to win, even before the WoW token, The WoW token make it a bit simpler.

Even though Blizzard doesn't allow it. you can buy carries and gear of all sorts from 3rd party sites, with that, its P2W.

It's not complicated at all. But as you've just shown us, a lot of people don't understand what p2w means. And trying to explain simple things to ignorant people is evidently very complicated.

[crusadernero]

In Aion, I could either play the game and earn powerful rewards, or I could swipe my credit card and get those rewards instantly. Just because you CAN earn the rewards through gameplay does not make being able to buy them any less pay to win. If you're paying IRL cash and you gain a hard achievement or loot reward without putting in the skill-based time to earn it, then it's damaged the integrity of the game. You can argue all day and night over the exact specific definition of what "winning" but the only reason the defenders of this are even trying to play the semantic game over what "winning" is, is because they all know and realize that the integrity of WoW has been permanently damaged by this.

When you beat Ragnaros and had peridition's blade back in 2005, people KNEW you earned that shit. Now you can run around town and know that a huge number of people wearing fancy gear just swiped their credit card for it.

And what's most important is, the staunch defenders of this don't seem to care about the health or the future of the game, because WoW is in rapid decline. People are leaving for numerous reasons, and many bemoan that their achievements don't feel special any more because anyone can buy them now.

If you want a dead game, keep pretending this is all fine and dandy. Keep arguing about the exact definition of "winning" is because at the end of the day, you know we're right, and it's the only thing you can do to defend your position.

This 100%. In the broad picture this hurts the games integrity so, so much. Nothing holds value really, cause everything can be bought legally within Blizzards rules. This is supposed to be a MMORPG and what makes you stand out are your gear, titles, mounts & achivs. When all of this is readily available via the token, nothing has value.

Even gold has lost value and meaning. It means nothing whatsoever. Gold in itself is a wasted and drained currency at this point and it is absurd.


My endgame in this discussion is that im worried about the state of the game. its been going in the wrong direction and it seems more and more have realised it. It f****** sucks, cause I really love the universe, but it is what it is. The token plays a pivotal role in the fall and demise of wow, wether people like it or not.

[Raelbo]

Just weirdos who like the token and use it, that's why they come here with the cringe defences for this p2w feature.

It's not a "defense" of anything. It's correcting people who are misguided.

The real cringe is the people who want to insist that a feature is p2w when clearly they have zero clue of what that term means.

[crusadernero]

As I have said repeatedly, that is not an adequate qualifier for testing whether a system is p2w. The real question you need to ask is:

can a token get you an advantage that is not reasonably easy to obtain by playing the game?. No. No it can't.

PS: you should know that all your talk about gear, mounts, titles and achievements is actually just a red herring. You cannot buy those things with tokens. You can buy gold. And yes, of course gold can be used to help in the acquisition of these things, but it remains an important distinction because anything that you can achieve with a token can be equally achieved by simply acquiring gold by any other method.

Therefore, the definitive test of whether tokens are a p2w mechanic boils down to the simple question of whether or not it is feasible to acquire that amount of gold in-game, or whether you are forced to resort to tokens. And given the fact that all gold acquired via token is obtained from other players, this condition can never be met. Ergo tokens cannot be p2w.

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It's not complicated at all. But as you've just shown us, a lot of people don't understand what p2w means. And trying to explain simple things to ignorant people is evidently very complicated.

Why do you keep om repeating yourself? We all know the token doesnt directly give you the stuff, but its the item you buy to do so. Blizzard just have that barrier there so you can defend them, and make it all a bit more blurry. Clearly working.

"can a token get you an advantage that is not reasonably easy to obtain by playing the game?"
Thats simply not true. Maybe you are a good wow player that consider most content "easy" and/or you have a big guild+friends that makes the process of clearing m+, arena & raids a rather easy experience, but thats not your average wow player.

In order to obtain all of this stuff a player gotta commit lots of hours into gearing up, learn his class, other peoples class, boss mechanics and so so much more. There should be some merit to the players that do so, but thats long gone. It holds literally no value anymore in a living MMORPG world. Why? Cause boost & token is there to let you skip not only most of the leveling process, but also the endgame features.

And once again - you didnt answer my question, you just countered with another question. So I try again:
can you or can you not log in, buy token, get gold and obtain gear, mounts, titles & achivs right now and in the forseable future?

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It's not a "defense" of anything. It's correcting people who are misguided.

The real cringe is the people who want to insist that a feature is p2w when clearly they have zero clue of what that term means.

It is a defense from you. Why you cant see the issues tied to token is absurd to me and I cant fathom why you would bother defending it, at all.

[epigramx]

If anyone wants to have a serious discussion about this: make a new thread about "is wow more pay to win now than it was in the past?".

It is clear that the thread is massively derailed by people being pedantic about the phrase's meaning; the meaning itself is irrelevant compared to the extend that pay to win is happening; the meaning is just a language convention with no substance other than that.

You can stretch it and say that PacMan is pay to win because you could pay someone to play for you etc. so the only important discussion here is if they made it worse.

[shadowmatrix]

This is like a Tootsie Pop advert or something. I wonder just how many people it will take to point out what P2W actually is before some of these folks finally accept it?

Currently the number doesn't exist. That is the problem with allowing terms to have changeable definitions, everyone will push for their own personal definition to be the only one accepted.

[Kaykay]

3000+ posts and people are still arguing tokens aren't pay to win. Get real bois.

Say we both have a fresh account, which one of us will get to endgame fastest assuming all else is equal?
Me who can buy both the shopped level boost, and gold to get boosted all the way up to progression-ready mythic gear by people who have bis gear already.
it'll take me ~3-4 days to be decked out and ready to parse on the newest raid.

you will spend a month, assuming you can only use boost services which require gold you'd have to farm. Or actually gear up and level up the old way.

You can be fine with that, and not care, but it's pay to win.

And it's okay to like pay to win, just realize that the game wasnt always like this, and it has changed the game towards a boosting centered economy.