Revamping m+ rio system

[kamuimac]

The IO system is such a pain in the ass on alts. It actually drives me nuts trying to pug keys, you can see my main's score, you can see I'm a CE raider, you can see my ilvl yet still can't get an invite. It's not like I'm trying to bring a 220 character into a 15, I have some 245+ alts that cannot get into a 15 for the life of me. I'm sorry my 4th alt is missing times on a few dungeons, get over it.

i will be brutal here - so what if you have even 2800 on class/spec X - you can play really really bad in class Y.

why should someone who doesnt know you risk his precious key ?

want to get into kesy easy ? bring your main not your alt.

also +15 is literaly hardest key to get into besides +20 - why ? because thats where all 2400-2800 people go to fill their GV slots . so you are competing with 1275631256361253 people who have 250+ itlv and much higher score.

play 16-17 - its so much easier to get into those then into 15.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a gross exaggeration. I have KSM by pugging on four healer characters but never bothered to do more than +15s because I don't have the incentive to do so and I'm only doing a weekly key. How can you gauge whether the guy got boosted or that he's competent but did the bare minimum to get KSM and upgrade his items to 246 ilvl? Especially when the guy plays healer or tank, the roles you can't really boost.
.

usualy by checking how many +15 runs he has. if he has like 100 + timed dungeons in that bracket by now on that char he is usually qualified for weekly +15 spam even if he just did 15s not a single 16.

and since i seen people who are now closing on 150+ timed +20s i dont think that it exageration to demand at least 100 + if you want to hard spam +15 for vault.

+50 timed +15s is like bare minimum at this point. someone who has like 10 timed dungeons ? hard pass for weekly in groups filled by 230o-2500 players.

and no its not harsh or elitest - if you want to speed run or progress/push you gotta uphld standards. one of cardinal rule for pushing is to check every single person in team not just if lead is 2300. because a lot of 2400 people are boosting their buddies atm

i kinda wish though that there woudl be additional data aviable - like total score on all chars, then data divided by number of chars then number of timed +15s and +20 on whole account. this would be very very handy when putting good groups.

[Twdft]

And would it then be a bad thing if we were able to freely reset the key and replace the underperforming player? I don’t see why it would be bad.

You know full well that players wouldn't be replaced for underperforming, they would be replaced for wasting even half a second like walking a yard left of the perceived optimal path to the second trash pack.

[Sialina]

That's a gross exaggeration. I have KSM by pugging on four healer characters but never bothered to do more than +15s because I don't have the incentive to do so and I'm only doing a weekly key. How can you gauge whether the guy got boosted or that he's competent but did the bare minimum to get KSM and upgrade his items to 246 ilvl? Especially when the guy plays healer or tank, the roles you can't really boost.

lets examine what you just said here

You have 4 healers with KSM, you do 1 weekly key.
S2 has been out for 14 weeks, if you did KSM on them all, you've done every dungeon, on every affix once, on every character and you still wouldn't have it, you would be just a little bit short, that also means you are EXTREMELY specific on which dungeons you try to get into, that will make it take longer.

2. If you have 1 dungeon of each, risk of being boosted is too high, so I wouldn't invite you, that's just me, others might take that risk, but I don't really see a big difference between someone who ran a dungeon once and someone who got boosted when it comes to general knowledge.

3. Healers and tanks are very easy to boost, healers can play like they usually do on 15s, and 3 dps + tank will carry that easily, tanks just play second tank, don't taunt anything, and 2 dps +1 healer +1 tank boosts you like you were a dps. You having score as a healer or tank won't make me more likely to invite you.

If it's just a +15, I don't really care beyond having more than 1 key done in the dungeon we are running, on at least 14 in time or close to in time, but by the time we post our key we usually get 30+ DPS applying within a minute. Generally we go with someone that is looking to upgrade their key to a 15 because I feel they enjoy the runs more.

If it's a high key, there will be a lot further diving into the runs done.

Editing this in, because I just thought about it, but if you have 4 healers with KSM, you can always poke the leader and tell them, if you have them connected on R.io we can go check them out and with 4x14 runs it starts looking a lot better.

[Barzotti]

lets examine what you just said here

You have 4 healers with KSM, you do 1 weekly key.
S2 has been out for 14 weeks, if you did KSM on them all, you've done every dungeon, on every affix once, on every character and you still wouldn't have it, you would be just a little bit short, that also means you are EXTREMELY specific on which dungeons you try to get into, that will make it take longer.

2. If you have 1 dungeon of each, risk of being boosted is too high, so I wouldn't invite you, that's just me, others might take that risk, but I don't really see a big difference between someone who ran a dungeon once and someone who got boosted when it comes to general knowledge.

3. Healers and tanks are very easy to boost, healers can play like they usually do on 15s, and 3 dps + tank will carry that easily, tanks just play second tank, don't taunt anything, and 2 dps +1 healer +1 tank boosts you like you were a dps. You having score as a healer or tank won't make me more likely to invite you.

If it's just a +15, I don't really care beyond having more than 1 key done in the dungeon we are running, on at least 14 in time or close to in time, but by the time we post our key we usually get 30+ DPS applying within a minute. Generally we go with someone that is looking to upgrade their key to a 15 because I feel they enjoy the runs more.

If it's a high key, there will be a lot further diving into the runs done.

I agree with your points and it's logical to take the most suited applicants. I was disagreeing with the assumption "did the dungeon once on tyrannical and once on fortified=boosted". Especially when I have done these dungeons at least 4 times twice at +15.

[chiddie]

Problem is, you are pugging a system designed for groups, that's why there isn't a LFM+ function. Stop pugging something designed for groups and all your problems go away.

Basically this.

But the solution should be having to do something else than pugging content not designed for pugging. And this comes to Blizzard, not to players.

[kamuimac]

I agree with your points and it's logical to take the most suited applicants. I was disagreeing with the assumption "did the dungeon once on tyrannical and once on fortified=boosted". Especially when I have done these dungeons at least 4 times twice at +15.

thats still extremly small number of dungeons timed this late in tier.

its a very big warning sight for people who just want smothly clear their 15s as fast as possible.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

i never had any problems getting groups with alts...

Then clearly his problem does not apply to you.

[Tziva]

nah people are still terrible at dungeons even on like 17-20.

it has been proven again and again that people dont get better with time - all what happens is that eventually they overgear stuff to certain degree and are able to brute force through stuff.

its 100 % about dungeons being much easier this tier. and because they are easier and peopel have VP/252 from GV they overpower so much stuff in there so much faster.

The dungeon tuning is certainly easier this season but I very much disagree with people not improving over time or higher keys not being better, and there certainly isn't "proof" of that. I don't know what your sample size is in that key range -- I'm going to guess pretty small since you have countless posts saying you don't enjoy m+ -- but players generally are better, because they have to be. A lot of mechanics will one shot you (or close) that can be brute forced in lower keys and if you don't know how fights work, or how to avoid whatever frontal, or when to interrupt you aren't going to be able to finish the key. A lot of getting good at m+ is just about iteration to remember every last mob mechanic and priority target, etc, and by definition that is going to improve over time as you run keys. Finally, it's also much harder to carry someone who is awful or dead once you climb closer to 20 within a typical group. I've done plenty of 15s people people who were abysmal and clearly only made it as far as they did because someone invited them because they were a meta spec and then they got carried dead through the whole run; you see very few of those in 20s. There's also a cap on how much you can overgear things anyway since the vault rewards stop scaling at 15 (and are luck dependent besides that) and drop rewards even before that.

Bad players certainly exist in higher keys and even good players can have bad days (I can think of a few runs where I was certainly "the bad player" just because I fumbled everything possible), but the amount of them you see decreases pretty significantly every step the key level raises.

The IO system is such a pain in the ass on alts. It actually drives me nuts trying to pug keys, you can see my main's score, you can see I'm a CE raider, you can see my ilvl yet still can't get an invite. It's not like I'm trying to bring a 220 character into a 15, I have some 245+ alts that cannot get into a 15 for the life of me. I'm sorry my 4th alt is missing times on a few dungeons, get over it.

I feel like a lot of that has to be bad luck. Sometimes I get invites pretty quickly on alts that generally would never look appealing for certain keys because of my main score. I know I also definitely take main score into account when building groups; I'd rather have someone who was super experienced on an alt than marginally experienced on the current character. But I've also had days when it takes ages. I think it just comes down to how much competition there is at a given time. Once you have 35 DPS signing up for a key, people are going to start being picky about every little thing because they can be. Why take an alt when you have a handful of signups who have the score your main does on the character they're actually on.

FWIW, 15s are probably the hardest keys to get into in general just because so many people either pushing for KSM or running solely for the vault. I frequently get declined for them on my ~2400 main when I'm just cranking out vault keys, I assume just due to the volume of competition. I honestly think it might be easier to get into 16s -- even if you don't have KSM -- just because the amount of signups you get is usually much less so group leaders aren't as picky.

That's a gross exaggeration. I have KSM by pugging on four healer characters but never bothered to do more than +15s because I don't have the incentive to do so and I'm only doing a weekly key. How can you gauge whether the guy got boosted or that he's competent but did the bare minimum to get KSM and upgrade his items to 246 ilvl? Especially when the guy plays healer or tank, the roles you can't really boost.

I mean, if you finished KSM and are now doing one key a week since, you still are going to have a decent amount of 15s done at this point. You also presumably, as a nonboost, have a lot of keys that document your climb (failed 15s, lower keys for the climb, season 1 experience, etc). I don't think it's that hard to tell the difference between a boost and someone who just does one key a week for vault.

On the other hand, if I have two dozen signups to choose from for my key listing, I'm probably still going to pick the most experienced person. You may not be a boost and may be perfectly viable for inviting to dungeons, but if lead can pick between someone with twenty 15s done and someone with a hundred, they'll probably go with the hundred.

Like I mentioned in a prior quoted person, yall have to remember that a lot of this isn't about our own personal score, or ilvl, or whatever. It's about what it is relative to all the other people signing up. You can have a good score and a great ilvl and have a ton of experience, but if there's another guy who has that and is a slightly more useful class to the group's comp, that guy is going to get picked. It's not personal, and it's not a failure of the system or an unfair bias against you, it is simply a reflection of the huge volume of people you're competing against for every dungeon slot. PuGing keys each week is really just about signing up for as many keys as you can until you get an invite, and it's like that for just about everyone that isn't a super in-demand spec.

[Barzotti]

I mean, if you finished KSM and are now doing one key a week since, you still are going to have a decent amount of 15s done at this point. You also presumably, as a nonboost, have a lot of keys that document your climb (failed 15s, lower keys for the climb, season 1 experience, etc). I don't think it's that hard to tell the difference between a boost and someone who just does one key a week for vault.

On the other hand, if I have two dozen signups to choose from for my key listing, I'm probably still going to pick the most experienced person. You may not be a boost and may be perfectly viable for inviting to dungeons, but if lead can pick between someone with twenty 15s done and someone with a hundred, they'll probably go with the hundred.

Like I mentioned in a prior quoted person, yall have to remember that a lot of this isn't about our own personal score, or ilvl, or whatever. It's about what it is relative to all the other people signing up. You can have a good score and a great ilvl and have a ton of experience, but if there's another guy who has that and is a slightly more useful class to the group's comp, that guy is going to get picked. It's not personal, and it's not a failure of the system or an unfair bias against you, it is simply a reflection of the huge volume of people you're competing against for every dungeon slot. PuGing keys each week is really just about signing up for as many keys as you can until you get an invite, and it's like that for just about everyone that isn't a super in-demand spec.

I agree with your points. Of course you'll pick the best applicant (score/ilvl/utility...), especially when there are dozens of overqualified applicants within seconds. I do the same when I'm making my own groups and I don't take a decline as a personal insult. If I'm not taken, whatever, there are other groups. I have zero issues with M+ or the M+ system, which are a godsend. I was just disagreeing with the "two +15s timed=boosted".

I checked the R.io on some of my chars and it was literally one +12 for score/one +15/one +15 on the other week and I was done for some dungeons, with a laughable s1 score. That's hardly a climb. As a proof: https://raider.io/characters/eu/khaz-modan/Barzotti My point is that even though profiles like mine can seem suspect, you can be competent and get KSM by pugging even with a low M+ dungeons count. Even if people have only two +15 timed for some dungeons, it doesn't automatically mean they got carried or boosted.

[Kaver]

You know full well that players wouldn't be replaced for underperforming, they would be replaced for wasting even half a second like walking a yard left of the perceived optimal path to the second trash pack.

Of course not, you’re just being overdramatic. It would still take a lot of time to reset the key and find a new player. So the idea that most players would do it based on your claim is just ridiculous. Sure there would be a few bad examples, but most groups would only replace players if they are severely underperforming. Otherwise they would be wasting their own time especially if they are tying to get 10 keys done for the week.

[Relapses]

Of course not, you’re just being overdramatic. It would still take a lot of time to reset the key and find a new player. So the idea that most players would do it based on your claim is just ridiculous. Sure there would be a few bad examples, but most groups would only replace players if they are severely underperforming. Otherwise they would be wasting their own time especially if they are tying to get 10 keys done for the week.

lol you haven't PuG'd much this season if you think he's exaggerating.

[Kaver]

lol you haven't PuG'd much this season if you think he's exaggerating.

Of course I have. And the vast majority of groups have been perfectly fine. People just don’t tell about the good experiences in here. They only post about the bad ones which is natural since bad news are always more popular than good news. If you have 9 good runs and 1 bad then you’re probably going to remember and tell about the 1 bad run. That’s kinda how all media works. Good news sucks and bad news rocks.

But the truth is that most M+ runs go perfectly fine.

[Barzotti]

Of course I have. And the vast majority of groups have been perfectly fine. People just don’t tell about the good experiences in here. They only post about the bad ones which is natural since bad news are always more popular than good news. If you have 9 good runs and 1 bad then you’re probably going to remember and tell about the 1 bad run. That’s kinda how all media works. Good news sucks and bad news rocks.

But the truth is that most M+ runs go perfectly fine.

I'd say almost every one of my +15 keys go perfectly fine. The +2/+10 went usually well. The +11/+14 range is way more problematic.

[Relapses]

Of course I have. And the vast majority of groups have been perfectly fine. People just don’t tell about the good experiences in here. They only post about the bad ones which is natural since bad news are always more popular than good news. If you have 9 good runs and 1 bad then you’re probably going to remember and tell about the 1 bad run. That’s kinda how all media works. Good news sucks and bad news rocks.

But the truth is that most M+ runs go perfectly fine.

The point remains -- you give people the ability to remove one another mid-key and you're introducing a whole new level of toxicity to the game. You'll end up with Surrender @ 20 moments with people int'ing keys so they can "get out," because they don't like {insert whatever the fuck here}. Like I've said before: The system doesn't need a revamp and a lot of these suggestions for "improvement" would make for a game that's far worse than it is currently.

[Kaver]

The point remains -- you give people the ability to remove one another mid-key and you're introducing a whole new level of toxicity to the game. You'll end up with Surrender @ 20 moments with people int'ing keys so they can "get out," because they don't like {insert whatever the fuck here}. Like I've said before: The system doesn't need a revamp and a lot of these suggestions for "improvement" would make for a game that's far worse than it is currently.

Okay we are talking about two completely different things here. Pointless debate.

[kamuimac]

I agree with your points. Of course you'll pick the best applicant (score/ilvl/utility...), especially when there are dozens of overqualified applicants within seconds. I do the same when I'm making my own groups and I don't take a decline as a personal insult. If I'm not taken, whatever, there are other groups. I have zero issues with M+ or the M+ system, which are a godsend. I was just disagreeing with the "two +15s timed=boosted".

I checked the R.io on some of my chars and it was literally one +12 for score/one +15/one +15 on the other week and I was done for some dungeons, with a laughable s1 score. That's hardly a climb. As a proof: https://raider.io/characters/eu/khaz-modan/Barzotti My point is that even though profiles like mine can seem suspect, you can be competent and get KSM by pugging even with a low M+ dungeons count. Even if people have only two +15 timed for some dungeons, it doesn't automatically mean they got carried or boosted.

but this is concerning somethign completly different.

getting to KSM and gettign into "fast weekly zergs made by 2300 + people farming GV " is completly different thing.

[Alroxas]

But in the end - I think m+(dungeons in general) need changes. It used to be something everyone did alot.

I mean when you tie Artifact Power or Azerite Power to dungeons... Yeah people will tend to run dungeons more often. However, I think in the case of SL, that's a good thing that AP isn't tied to dungeons anymore. Renown is if you're behind but not for those who are caught up.

Yeah I dont get why the key gotta degrade on failure.

Because if the key didn't degrade on failure then you would get a lot of players who would min/max the shit out of keys. We know players min/max the crap out of WoW already so if keys didn't degrade on failure then you would get the full spectrum from:

Legitimate - Oops, we're not likely to time the key because we have 2 minutes left and we haven't gotten to the last dungeon boss yet.
Asinine - Oops, we didn't perfectly pull XYZ pack at the ABC point in the dungeon. Let's restart.

I think that has more to do with people just getting better at the dungeons over the course of an expansion than it does the seasonal affix.

The power gain of Torment is higher/better than Prideful. First, the affects are persistent and not limited to 60s. Second, there's less route restrictions with Tormented versus Prideful.

Sure knowledge of the dungeons may have increased, but I wouldn't discount how much the seasonal affix is contributing.

it has been proven again and again that people dont get better with time

Source?

[hulkgor]

The IO system is such a pain in the ass on alts. It actually drives me nuts trying to pug keys, you can see my main's score, you can see I'm a CE raider, you can see my ilvl yet still can't get an invite.

You playing well on class A is no guarantee whatsoever that you also play well on class B (or a different role entirely), so why would they blindly invite you when there are huge amounts of other players that are better suited?

It's almost as if people get their ego bruised for being declined.

[Relapses]

probably by doing keys and seeing how bad people are at the game lol... so many who still almost a year into shadowlands... who don't understand things learnt the first time doing the dungeons on normal or mythic mode...

I think this is why Tyrannical feels like shit to PuG. People straight-up int keys to boss mechanics and the key gets toasted 2/3rds of the way through.

[Relapses]

had a group in mists when trying to do last key for an alt with a friend... we wiped to mistcaller because the tank got killed by patty cake... then we did another try and tank died to patty cake again...

"wtf someone needs to help me interrupt"

i just left the group... lol...

Fun fact: If the tank outranged the Patty Cake it'll one shot the next highest on the threat table in range.

But yeah, I see a lot of that. Getting hooked on Gorechop, getting one shot by the combo for Xav, vacuuming balls on the first/second boss of Spires like a Hoover, breaking a CC'd mob on Amarth right before the cast, failing hooks, 6+ minute Nalthors because people can't kill their adds downstairs... it's just brutal how many opportunities these bosses have for players to prove to the world how much they hate timing keys.