Some Flirts and Jokes Removed on the PTR, Fathom Dweller Available in NA, DLC #791

[Menog]

It's pretty fucking stupid to be so extremely dense not to be able to grasp the fact that people don't like these changes because blizzard devs would rather waste time with nonsense changes immediately rather than actually create content for a game that desperately needs it.

But heeeyyyyyy, als long as only the devs are happy and the simps keep on simpin, right?

touche! 100% agree on this

[DarkAmbient]

They aren't fixing as much as they are creating a game which reflects the current development team's values. You know, kind of like exactly what the official statement Blizzard released says.

And that's the problem. The development team's values are irrelevant, or at least they should be. They're making a computer game, not setting out a political manifesto. Or perhaps that is what they're doing, in way. Perhaps they believe that games should somehow be a reflection of the personal values of the people who made them, a sort of interactive mission statement, in which case I would vehemently disagree.

[Relapses]

Hold up, you think doing this doesn’t take them away from somewhere else? Unless they hired new people specifically for this (they didn’t), it’s the same people doing it. You can’t magically “make time”. Time is finite, and it’s taken from somewhere else to do this.

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that without insider knowledge with how Blizzard develops the game it's hard (read: impossible) to say that this is taking anything away from the current development. The same number of people who were developing content for the game could still be developing content for the game, they could be redistributing people from different ongoing projects to work on these specific changes. (We also really don't know the total workload these changes amount to when compared to other work Blizzard would normally have done to the game.) It seems unfair to simply assume that this is "taking away" from anything when we have no idea how the company operates.

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And that's the problem. The development team's values are irrelevant, or at least they should be. They're making a computer game, not setting out a political manifesto. Or perhaps that is what they're doing, in way. Perhaps they believe that games should somehow be a reflection of the personal values of the people who made them, a sort of interactive mission statement, in which case I would vehemently disagree.

How dare artistic works reflect the artistic values of the artists themselves!

Jesus man.

[Menog]

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that without insider knowledge with how Blizzard develops the game it's hard to say that this is taking anything away from the current development. The same number of people who were developing content for the game could still be developing content for the game, they could be redistributing people from different ongoing projects to work on these specific changes. (We also really don't know the total workload these changes amount to when compared to other work Blizzard would normally have done the game.) It seems unfair to simply assume that this is "taking away" from anything when we have no idea how the company operates.

It's funny that you keep going with "whatism" when you can't counter someone argument while vehemently try to destroy arguments you disagree with.

I was right like 10 pages ago, you are white knighting... wait... are you a blizzard dev in disguise?

if not you are a true contrarian indeed. kudos

[Orby]

Sexually Disparaging Dialogue
A handful of lines which made disparaging remarks toward women and effeminate men have been changed, including dialogue in which the Blood Elf Johnny Awesome is repeatedly referred to as a girl by Master Apothecary Lydon in the Horde Hillsbrad Foothills questline.

• You want to know why women are no-good? Because you think that all they're doing is calling upon the spirits of the dead. But then, you catch them doing a little more than talking! I mean, how does that even work with a ghost?
• They told me that after I died I'd pay my dues for all the wrong I did in life. Doesn't sound like a fun time. Why don't you bring me back so I won't have to go through that ugliness?
• Somebody shut this little girl up!
• Somebody shut him up!
• Do you want a dolly, little girl? Would that make it better?
• Do you want a tissue, boy? Would that make it better?
• KILL ME OR KILL THE GIRL!
• KILL ME OR KILL HIM!

Okay here is the thing with this one. I agree. Yes this should be something hat should be looked at. BUT. In changing this, the joke is gone.. The idea is the blood elf was a wimp, and the orc was teasing him about in in a bullying way. Now the holw questline just seems awkward. Would have been better to remove it (Personally I never liked the cata revamped quests anyway)

[Kralljin]

We're still on the outside looking into a lot of these changes. There could be context behind some of the changes that we're missing which is why I don't think it's fair to use story elements from the game as a measuring stick against changes made to the game itself. Apples and oranges.

If you think we're going to learn a backstory to any of those changes, you're just being naive.

After all, that's something Blizzard hasn't alluded to in their original post and that's only implied because "Some Youtuber said so" and we all know we shouldn't believe Content creators whenever it suits an argument, especially when they allude that some Blizzard contact has told them X.

And i will only reiterate what @Sialina has said

Imagine reading a childrens book, which is the level we are at now with adult themes.
Then in the middle you get sudden brutal violence, I have to ask you, who can handle
brutally murdering someone, but not a joke about a schlong? And what is wrong with them?

You just_cannot_ go so neckdeep on the brutality to the point where the PC is involved into a genocide (after all, Horde players helped Teldrassil to happen), can choose to side with the prepetrator of that genocide (even handing out rewards for it!) but then on the other go so completely nuts on sexuality that even villains cannot even display something we deem as bad because it involves sexuality.

[Relapses]

It's funny that you keep going with "whatism" when you can't counter someone argument while vehemently try to destroy arguments you disagree with.

I was right like 10 pages ago, you are white knighting... wait... are you a blizzard dev in disguise?

if not you are a true contrarian indeed. kudos

I'm not even sure if I know what a "whatism" is, but that's not what I'm doing here. I'm not even being an intentional contrarian. There just happens to be a lot of people I disagree with in this thread. /shrug

[bloodkin]

Again, unless you have insider knowledge with how Blizzard develops the game (you don't) there's no way to say that this is effectively taking anything away from the current development of the game. Moreover, this is the same argument people use when Blizzard adds anything to the game they don't like. (see: "Why does Blizzard add Blizzard store mounts to the game when they should be making the game gooder HUH?")

I don't give a damn about features that blizz implements in the game that I don't like, as long as someone else does, as they're also paying customers. What I and a lot of the posters in this thread do not like is the fact that the devs think it's ok to waste time on changes nobody asked for or were warented. You can qq as as much as you like about other people's qq'ing, but your salt is as good as mine: it's worth jack shit to the devs. This isn't about any improvements for the game, this is all just to please the devs without a thought for the players.

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I'm not even sure if I know what a "whatism" is, but that's not what I'm doing here. I'm not even being an intentional contrarian. There just happens to be a lot of people I disagree with in this thread. /shrug

So, why even bother posting here? Being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse isn't much more than trolling.

[Relapses]

I don't give a damn about features that blizz implements in the game that I don't like, as long as someone else does, as they're also paying customers. What I and a lot of the posters in this thread do not like is the fact that the devs think it's ok to waste time on changes nobody asked for or were warented. You can qq as as much as you like about other people's qq'ing, but your salt is as good as mine: it's worth jack shit to the devs. This isn't about any improvements for the game, this is all just to please the devs without a thought for the players.

Considering these changes are being made to help the game feel more inclusive to all players I'd argue that you're simply dead wrong on that account. What you mean to say is that since you don't deem the changes a worthwhile endeavor, Blizzard should have never sought them out in the first place. And while you're allowed to feel that way, I'm equally allowed to point out the hypocrisy in being upset for the sake of being upset.

So, why even bother posting here? Being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse isn't much more than trolling.

Last I checked I'm allowed to express my opinions just as you're free to ignore them if they bother you so much.

[Sialina]

Considering these changes are being made to help the game feel more inclusive to all players I'd argue that you're simply dead wrong on that account. What you mean to say is that since you don't deem the changes a worthwhile endeavor, Blizzard should have never sought them out in the first place. And while you're allowed to feel that way, I'm equally allowed to point out the hypocrisy in being upset for the sake of being upset.



Last I checked I'm allowed to express my opinions just as you're free to ignore them if they bother you so much.

What about players that feel less welcome because the story is now all over the place? Some of it you can tell to your kid, some of it would make Hitler shit himself.

If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing noone.

[Relapses]

What about players that feel less welcome because the story is now all over the place? Some of it you can tell to your kid, some of it would make Hitler shit himself.

If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing noone.

I'd say the potential for a new player to have a universally more positive, inclusive experience is much more valuable than that of a player whose breaking point was apparently removing a reference to Ace Ventura from the game. I know where you're going with that line of thinking but personally I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as the terminally dissatisfied cynics which populate this forum would lead you to believe.

edit: I'm bereft to say that the current changes make the story seem "all over the place."

[Menog]

Considering these changes are being made to help the game feel more inclusive to all players I'd argue that you're simply dead wrong on that account. What you mean to say is that since you don't deem the changes a worthwhile endeavor, Blizzard should have never sought them out in the first place. And while you're allowed to feel that way, I'm equally allowed to point out the hypocrisy in being upset for the sake of being upset.

The funniest part is that its achieving the exact opposite feeling. I see these changes as being cringe af and moving forward they will lead to shittier more limited content atleast in my opinion. Maybe they are targetting another audience that isn't the one they had?

I just find it tone def because wow's barrier of entry is huge. The game is old and not appealing to new players and the (edited this word in) CURRENT content is in the vast majority of opinions (mine included and I didn't even played 9.1) terrible.

I mean I am overjoyed blizzard is shooting itself in the foot because I have no love for this development team and this shell of a company but at the same time its hard to see these sad pathetic idiots ruining the game I used to love without even caring about the people that paid their lunch for years.

Oh well, gotta keep this fire burning.

[Sialina]

I'd say the potential for a new player to have a universally more positive, inclusive experience is much more valuable than that of a player whose breaking point was apparently removing a reference to Ace Ventura from the game. I know where you're going with that line of thinking but personally I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as the terminally dissatisfied cynics which populate this forum would lead you to believe.

edit: I'm bereft to say that the current changes make the story seem "all over the place."

I have a V E R Y hard time believing someone can pick up a game about mass murder and genocide, but what makes them quit is a schlong joke or someone getting insulted. I don't think you believe that either, I think you are using that to defend yourself because your arguments are getting absolutely demolished by everyone in the thread.

Do you also think people watch American History X, but what makes them turn it off and give a 1 star review is when someone says fuck?

[bloodkin]

Considering these changes are being made to help the game feel more inclusive to all players I'd argue that you're simply dead wrong on that account. What you mean to say is that since you don't deem the changes a worthwhile endeavor, Blizzard should have never sought them out in the first place. And while you're allowed to feel that way, I'm equally allowed to point out the hypocrisy in being upset for the sake of being upset.



Last I checked I'm allowed to express my opinions just as you're free to ignore them if they bother you so much.

Your first words that actually hold up, kudo's, and right back at you. I'll also point out the hypocrisy at being upset about people being upset, while adding literally nothing to a discussion except for 'b-but the devs told us the truth, they wouldn't lie!' And trying to piss people off by being intentionally dense and obtuse. You haven't added anything new to the thread and you're not worth the time to reply to anymore.

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I have a V E R Y hard time believing someone can pick up a game about mass murder and genocide, but what makes them quit is a schlong joke or someone getting insulted. I don't think you believe that either, I think you are using that to defend yourself because your arguments are getting absolutely demolished by everyone in the thread.

Do you also think people watch American History X, but what makes them turn it off and give a 1 star review is when someone says fuck?

Some people like to get offended by anything sexual or controversial in nature, but are completely fine with anything involving violence, mass murder and genocide, and that sex, war and violence have nothing to do with each other.

[Dhrizzle]

I have a V E R Y hard time believing someone can pick up a game about mass murder and genocide, but what makes them quit is a schlong joke or someone getting insulted. I don't think you believe that either, I think you are using that to defend yourself because your arguments are getting absolutely demolished by everyone in the thread.

Do you also think people watch American History X, but what makes them turn it off and give a 1 star review is when someone says fuck?

Maybe some people play games for escapism so while the murder, brutality and genocide is part of a fantasy world and divorced from everyday reality the schlong jokes are clearly things put in because a real-life person thought other real-life people would find it funny.

[Relapses]

I have a V E R Y hard time believing someone can pick up a game about mass murder and genocide, but what makes them quit is a schlong joke or someone getting insulted. I don't think you believe that either, I think you are using that to defend yourself because your arguments are getting absolutely demolished by everyone in the thread.

It's not about what makes somebody quit. It's about the entire holistic experience of playing the game. If you're a new player, you won't know that anything was changed. (And, if I'm honest, I'd say 95% of people playing the game won't either, even after the changes go through.) You're not going to know that a Ace Ventura reference got removed or that a few lines of quest dialogue had bad words removed from them. You're just going to play the game and (hopefully, maybe partially due to some of the changes we're seeing) have an experience which keeps you coming back for more.

A lot of the arguments I see here seem to posit that because something changed, the game is somehow worse off. My position is that a lot of people are making mountains out of mole hills to push everything into a narrative which fits whatever negative opinion they already had about Blizzard and that in the grand scope of things most of these changes are neutral-at-worst. (And certainly not worth getting as worked up as a few people in this thread have.)

[Kumorii]

I'll just have to disagree here, either your values permeate the entire product, or you leave them out all together.

It feels very strange when you can have a story about orcs committing genocide on the Draenei, using their souls
to fuel a portal and using their skeletons to build a road, brutality and humiliation beyond even what we've seen
in real life.
At the same time you can't have someone call an orc a greenskin because that's offensive. I don't think I have to
remind you that if greenskin hits too close to home, so should genocide.
It's also too mature to have a lewd joke in the game, against the "values" of the dev team, but completely fine to
murder and brainwash people in Bastion.

All this pulls me out of the story, I haven't liked it for a long time but it keeps getting worse.
Imagine reading a childrens book, which is the level we are at now with adult themes.
Then in the middle you get sudden brutal violence, I have to ask you, who can handle
brutally murdering someone, but not a joke about a schlong? And what is wrong with them?

Imagine reading this in a childrens book
"And then bunny went home from the tea party, bringing the 2 flowers she got from her
friend with her, as she crossed the meadow she murdered 4 birds in brutal fashion, put their
head on spikes, and threw their entrails on the ground, now she had dinner for tonight as well!"

Was about to write the same.
The statement blizzard made about "changing the game to be in line with our values" is about one of the most stupid statements I've heard in a long time.

If they create another kill quest, that means it's in line with their values. If they write something bad happening overall, that's in line with their values.

[Sialina]

Maybe some people play games for escapism so while the murder, brutality and genocide is part of a fantasy world and divorced from everyday reality the schlong jokes are clearly things put in because a real-life person thought other real-life people would find it funny.

So with your logic obviously someone thought other IRL people would find genocide, mass murder and torture funny/enjoyable? or it doesn't work that way, only with dick jokes?

Editing for a reply to Relapses
Don't care at all about the things they remove, they are all cringe to me, I do care about the tone of the game though and what is possible in the future. I don't think going all out "safe for small children" in one department, while going full on hardcore adult in another makes for a congruent setting.

[Menog]

It's not about what makes somebody quit. It's about the entire holistic experience of playing the game. If you're a new player, you won't know that anything was changed. (And, if I'm honest, I'd say 95% of people playing the game won't either, even after the changes go through.) You're not going to know that a Ace Ventura reference got removed or that a few lines of quest dialogue had bad words removed from them. You're just going to play the game and (hopefully, maybe partially due to some of the changes we're seeing) have an experience which keeps you coming back for more.

A lot of the arguments I see here seem to posit that because something changed, the game is somehow worse off. My position is that a lot of people are making mountains out of mole hills to push everything into a narrative which fits whatever negative opinion they already had about Blizzard and that in the grand scope of things most of these changes are neutral-at-worst. (And certainly not worth getting as worked up as a few people in this thread have.)

The only people making mountains out of mole hills are the game's devs and their shit contrived world view that will eventually kill off even more of the dwindling playerbase they already had. Tbh I should be encouraging them on twitter hahaha

[Orby]

Maybe some people play games for escapism so while the murder, brutality and genocide is part of a fantasy world and divorced from everyday reality the schlong jokes are clearly things put in because a real-life person thought other real-life people would find it funny.

Humour is subjective, and some people will find low brow humour like dicks and fart jokes pretty funny, I know people who do. Most of them are women lol.

If we were all told what is funny and what we should laugh about then we'd all be robots. The best thing about humour despite if we like it or not is that its different for everyone. The only time humour isn't funny is when its used to incite hatred and violence. Becuase by that point it isnt humour its inciting hatred and violence with an added laugh track. I don't feel alot of the humour in WoW is there to incite hate or cause people to go harass people.