I think WoW would benefit from having less difficulty modes and less ilv.

[Relapses]

Well, yes, obviously you fail to understand. I'm glad you recognize that.

It's really very simple. The purpose of a commercial game is to make money. Full stop. Waffling about this doesn't change this brute fact. The game is not a work of art, it is not a statement of some kind. It is a machine for getting money from our pockets to Activision-Blizzards pockets. To the extent that considerations of art or other airy pretensions exist, they are in service to this goal.

This is incorrect, solipsist and cynical to a degree which is hard to put into words. There's no point in having a discussion with somebody who sees an entertainment property as little more than a tool for a multinational company to lines its pockets.

[Mr Crix]

I think this is the sort of mindset that has caused the devs to fly WoW right into the ground. "It's not what you don't know that gets you, it's what you 'know' that's wrong."

Maybe? Devil's advocate though. Let's say blizzard kept with the focus on progression via content rather then power systems. Would wow be in such a sorry state now?

Each patch is increasingly hostile to new players or alts as power systems constantly spiral out of control to give the 80 hour a week " casual" something to grind.

If wow was to choose its downfall I wish we didn't go with this one.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, yes, obviously you fail to understand. I'm glad you recognize that.

It's really very simple. The purpose of a commercial game is to make money. Full stop. Waffling about this doesn't change this brute fact. The game is not a work of art, it is not a statement of some kind. It is a machine for getting money from our pockets to Activision-Blizzards pockets. To the extent that considerations of art or other airy pretensions exist, they are in service to this goal.

The issue is you cant make a video game for people who don't enjoy video games.

It is alright for a player to not 100% every game they play they simply go up to the point they want to then leave and comeback later. This leaves a far more positive experience then some Korean grindfest. Mythic for better or worse is what the player base places the most value on. It isnt coincidence that every healthy server left was one that established itself as a " raid" realm during the great migration to horde.

A tbc or even a wrath model makes for a far healthier game then anything post.

[Osmeric]

The issue is you cant make a video game for people who don't enjoy video games.

I'm not talking about people who don't enjoy video games, I'm talking about people who don't enjoy the kind of video game you might enjoy. And you might not enjoy the kind of game they enjoy... am I to conclude because of that that you don't like video games?

[Relapses]

A tbc or even a wrath model makes for a far healthier game then anything post.

How do you know that? People often point to subscriber levels from TBC thru WotLK and say, "look, subscriber number go up; game design GOOD," then look at the decreasing sub numbers from Cata and beyond and say "look, subscriber number go down; game design BAD." In reality, it's a far more complicated equation because there are two important factors the subscriber charts fail to account for -- new player generation and attrition. Broadly speaking, this is referred to as a subscriber churn. The attrition for the game in its early expansions could have been way, way higher than they are presently; the difference then is that each time a subscriber left there were more dozens of new players signing up. People are quitting at high rates but new player generation is high enough that it still results in subscriber increases. Meanwhile, in latter expansions the players are quitting at much slower rates. The main difference is that there aren't nearly as many new players coming in. Subscriber levels decrease but attrition rates are lower. This nuance is completely lost when comparing data points on a subscriber chart which is why I find it endlessly infuriating when I hear "evidence based" proclamations of how the game should be designed that amount to "just make WotLK again."

[Mr Crix]

I'm not talking about people who don't enjoy video games, I'm talking about people who don't enjoy the kind of video game you might enjoy. And you might not enjoy the kind of game they enjoy... am I to conclude because of that that you don't like video games?

Then they should fund a game they enjoy rather then trying to get an existing one to cater to them... has renowned captured their interest? If not renowned then ap? Surely the artifact research grind was to their liking?

If you don't like mmos, you don't like mmos you can't butcher a game enough to change that.

- - - Updated - - -

How do you know that? People often point to subscriber levels from TBC thru WotLK and say, "look, subscriber number go up; game design GOOD," then look at the decreasing sub numbers from Cata and beyond and say "look, subscriber number go down; game design BAD." In reality, it's a far more complicated equation because there are two important factors the subscriber charts fail to account for -- new player generation and attrition. Broadly speaking, this is referred to as a subscriber churn. The attrition for the game in its early expansions could have been way, way higher than they are presently; the difference then is that each time a subscriber left there were more dozens of new players signing up. People are quitting at high rates but new player generation is high enough that it still results in subscriber increases. Meanwhile, in latter expansions the players are quitting at much slower rates. The main difference is that there aren't nearly as many new players coming in. Subscriber levels decrease but attrition rates are lower. This nuance is completely lost when comparing data points on a subscriber chart which is why I find it endlessly infuriating when I hear "evidence based" proclamations of how the game should be designed that amount to "just make WotLK again."

You just asked me how do you know successful models that succeeded, succeed ... I'm not really sure how to answer that.

Players appear based of the limited armory data we have that admittedly is flawed to be quoting at accelerated rates.

[Relapses]

You just asked me how do you know successful models that succeeded, succeed ... I'm not really sure how to answer that.

I don't think you can. None of us really can. I can make the observation that in 2010 when WoW was at its peak the MMO genre and the gaming landscape in general was far more appealing for the game to succeed. I don't think the design of the game itself was the specific reason it was popular and it's this narrow viewpoint I see a lot of WotLK fans go back to time and time again. (Not saying you're doing that here, just a general observation.) Popularity breeds popularity, so on and so forth. Personally, with the current gaming landscape I think it's unlikely for WoW to ever achieve the reigning success it did back in WotLK again. That doesn't mean the game's out to pasture or "dead," as many forum goers here will posit. It's more to say that those days are an unrealistic measuring stick by which to compare the modern game's relative success (or, as is often the case on forums... its failure).

Players appear based of the limited armory data we have that admittedly is flawed to be quoting at accelerated rates.

There's a litany of issues with third party data scraped from the Armory API. There's a lot of great tools that Blizzard's Armory APIs allow its players to accomplish. Realm population statistics, however, aren't one of them. (And this is by design. Blizzard doesn't want this information to be widely available. And again, not because they're "embarrassed;" but rather because this information is patently useless for players to know.) I think a lot of the effort people spend trying to decipher and provide "accurate" data would be better served focusing that effort in areas where a meaningful impact can be felt.

[Patientzero]

I have always thought there should be NPC tanks for dungeons. It is hard to find tanks. Not just now but as long as I can remember. There would be of course some give and take like if you were to wipe with an NPC tank you will be punished more with time being reduced greater than it currently is.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

How about the same number of difficulties (you know, so players of very different skill levels can actually see the content and have fun) - but just not make Ilvl differences between difficulties & tiers so big?

Try this:

Tier 1 LFR: 180
Tier 1 Normal: 185
Tier 1 Heroic: 190
Tier 1 Mythic: 195

Tier 2 LFR: 190
Tier 2 Normal: 195
Tier 2 Heroic: 200
Tier 2 Mythic: 205

Tier 3 LFR: 200
Tier 3 Normal: 205
Tier 3 Heroic: 210
Tier 3 Mythic: 215

10 Ilvl increase between tiers, 5 Ilvl increase between difficulties. LFR of the current tier gives gear of equal value to heroic gear from the previous tier. That seems appropriate to me. Thoughts?

[Drusin]

It's interesting how often I come into threads I disagree with based on the title and the OP is banned

[Relapses]

How about the same number of difficulties (you know, so players of very different skill levels can actually see the content and have fun) - but just not make Ilvl differences between difficulties & tiers so big?

If I were to wager a guess, that might have more to do with the scaling rewards from M+ than it does raiding. If the ilvls between the three raid difficulties is too narrow, it makes the scaling rewards from M+ either disproportionately good or bad.

[Osmeric]

Then they should fund a game they enjoy rather then trying to get an existing one to cater to them... has renowned captured their interest? If not renowned then ap? Surely the artifact research grind was to their liking?

If you don't like mmos, you don't like mmos you can't butcher a game enough to change that.

Suppose someone only likes easy MMOs, without difficult content. Are you claiming that person doesn't count because they don't really like MMOs?

[Rinnegan2]

good idea. I like that.

[Mr Crix]

Suppose someone only likes easy MMOs, without difficult content. Are you claiming that person doesn't count because they don't really like MMOs?

Then they do the easy content that already existed... even during classic era wow that was the vaste majority of wow. I'm tired of pretending at best arguably 3 tiers of raids and a dungeon difficulty mode somehow makes up 98% of the game rather then 2%.

That is with me giving you normal raids as well in wrath that were easy enough that icc was cleared in blue dungeon gear. I don't mean to pick on you but when the hell did it become acceptable to demand an entire video game be made easy for people who don't like video games?

[Osmeric]

Then they do the easy content that already existed... even during classic era wow that was the vaste majority of wow. I'm tired of pretending at best arguably 3 tiers of raids and a dungeon difficulty mode somehow makes up 98% of the game rather then 2%.

That is with me giving you normal raids as well in wrath that were easy enough that icc was cleared in blue dungeon gear. I don't mean to pick on you but when the hell did it become acceptable to demand an entire video game be made easy for people who don't like video games?

I didn't say they liked MMOs that had easy content, I said they liked easy MMOs -- MMOs that only have easy content. The hard content, if it is there, sends them the message that they suck, let's say, and they can't stand that.

Would that person not count?

[Mr Crix]

I didn't say they liked MMOs that had easy content, I said they liked easy MMOs -- MMOs that only have easy content. The hard content, if it is there, sends them the message that they suck, let's say, and they can't stand that.

Would that person not count?

Well yes? Why would they?

I want you to try and explain to me how you could possibly appeal much less satisfy a person like that in an mmo? A dungeon release a week? We know from post legion they don't do grinds. Appealing to people who hate your product won't help you...

[RoKPaNda]

It isn't a chicken or the egg question... we got to see the servers die in real time during tbc through cata. Once the raiders left everyone else did. Even now if you where to recommend wow to a friend would you honestly tell me you wouldn't have them rolling on a raid server?

The high end in almost all games carries the low end. It's to the point you have to search out outliners to argue otherwise.

Thanks for demonstrating that you clearly don't understand the issues with Cata. It was definitely not the raids. Casual engagement tanked in Cata and casuals left. Not raiders. That's why they added LFR and why they bundled D3 with a WoW sub deal. You really need to check your sense of self importance. Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you've killed even one Mythic boss in one tier, we're really not that important in the grand scheme of things. Every single mythic raider could quit WoW tomorrow and nobody would miss us. Blizzard does us a favor with Mythic raiding.

[Mr Crix]

Thanks for demonstrating that you clearly don't understand the issues with Cata. It was definitely not the raids. Casual engagement tanked in Cata and casuals left. Not raiders. That's why they added LFR and why they bundled D3 with a WoW sub deal. You really need to check your sense of self importance. Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you've killed even one Mythic boss in one tier, we're really not that important in the grand scheme of things. Every single mythic raider could quit WoW tomorrow and nobody would miss us. Blizzard does us a favor with Mythic raiding.

And subs plummeted faster then ever right after cata... it's the largest single loss on record. Cata had issues it lacked enough dungeons for weaker players and they wasted a lotta time revamping the world. Screaming at me an apple isn't an orange doesn't really factor into the point I made.

[shise]

WoW would be perfect by simply taking the best of classic, BC and WotLK.

It is that simple.

[Blackmist]

Less difficulty modes? No.

Less ilvl? Probably.

People run M+ past 15 for fun. Why wouldn't they run Mythic raids for no further ilvl increases. Just a different colour outfit with more sparkles, flames, etc, would probably be enough. I know I would.

[StillMcfuu]

Raids:
Normal - How the raid was meant to be played by raid designers. (+5 Ilvl over Heroic dungeon ilvl, all difficulties can drop global orange items that are +5 ilvl above Normal)
Heroic - It's still the normal raid, but with new mechanics due to "triggers" or ignoring certain mechanics, it's not it's own difficulty level. (Same ilvl as Normal, new gear drops and cosmetic differences)
Mythic - Now it's own difficulty level, it's not meant to be farmable, combines the triggers of HC with an increase in boss hp and heal requirements. (Same ilvl as Normal, new gear drops and further cosmetic changes)

Dungeons
Normal - This is the base leveling version of the dungeon.
Heroic - All dungeons up leveled to max level, appropriate challenge for leveling green players, drops blues and rare purples that are equal to Normal raid drop ilvl.
Mythic+ - Challenge mode, starts at 1 (no Mythic 0). No new gear, not meant to be farmable, not meant to give you your +15 for the week. Gives rewards from HC level, same purple drop rate, some new items and cosmetics.

This is an RPG, the concept of an RPG is growing stronger, which you will under this system, but there is always a bigger dog in RPG worlds. Allowing players to sample into early Mythic and HC to artificially boost their gear so they can finally get past Normal modes has been a problem for way too long. The fact is if it's still the current raid tier/patch you haven't effectively "left that area" and therefor you should not be able to outgear and stomp through the dungeons/raids.

T1: Leveling/Max level zone gear brings you to -10ilvl from HC Dungeon.
T2: Increase ilvl of Normal Raid to +10 over T1. T2 Maxlevel zones give gear = to old T1 HC Dungeon.
T3: The same as above, if leveling in T3, your max level zone rewards will be equal to T1 raid gear, still making the raids viable for better optimized and sets/ cosmetic rewards.)