Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[TheFirstOnes]

Its the law of inverse quality to marketing.
The bigger a marketing push something has, that being movies, games or new restaurant, the bigger the odds that someone up top knows the product is godawful and won't be able to stand on its own merits, therefore banking on early sales to prop up the absence of sales later on.

WoD was probably given a big marketing push because the developers thought that this was their best chance to get back into the market. MoP might have been good, but definitely wasn't a hype machine, whereas hundreds of orcs building giant machines was probably more up everyone's alley.

WoD is quintessentially Warcraft. Legion is good and all, but demons and sword and magic is very basic fantasy. Giant Mongolian or s wielding axes is something you don't really see much of outside World of Warcraft.

I really don't think battling a world soul that threatened to destroy all Creation at the Seat of the Pantheon of Order itself within the crucible of all our reality, mind you, is something you really see everyday in WoW, either.

[Varodoc]

Its the law of inverse quality to marketing.
The bigger a marketing push something has, that being movies, games or new restaurant, the bigger the odds that someone up top knows the product is godawful and won't be able to stand on its own merits, therefore banking on early sales to prop up the absence of sales later on.

WoD was probably given a big marketing push because the developers thought that this was their best chance to get back into the market. MoP might have been good, but definitely wasn't a hype machine, whereas hundreds of orcs building giant machines was probably more up everyone's alley.

WoD is quintessentially Warcraft. Legion is good and all, but demons and sword and magic is very basic fantasy. Giant Mongolian or s wielding axes is something you don't really see much of outside World of Warcraft.

Maybe, maybe not.

They also said WoD would have a LOT MORE FEATURES than what actually came at Launch. They said Ashran would be a massive BG, they said you would be able to place your Garrison in any zone (that already would have improved the feature significantly from a RP and Immersion standpoint -> Example, an Orc warrior dropping their garrison in Gorgrond), they said Karabor and the Ogre citadel would be the new capitals, they also put Faralhon on the map as a zone, without talking about Shattrath, and these are the first things that come to mind.

Why promise all of this in the first place if you set your mind that this expansion would be filler (which it ended up being, but it clearly wasn't presented as such at Blizzcon)?

Likely because we know that Blizzard had a lot of trash and shit going on behind the scenes and are a very dysfunctional company. Maybe they genuinely wanted to make WoD the best expansion ever, but something happened, maybe team shifts, etc. and they changed their mind.

But if they always planned for WoD to be filler, promising all those features at BlizzCon was stupid and suicidal, since you already knew you wouldn't be able to deliver. WoD would have gotten way less backlash if many of those scrapped features were never promised.

If they kept their promises, there could have easily been a content patch about Shattrath as a zone and a raid like Nazjatar and Faralhon as a side zone like Mechagon. There could have easily been a smaller .5 patch about the "Temple of the Sky" of the Arrakoa, the "dark master" of the Necromancer traitor, or the Ogre continent.

[TheFirstOnes]

No WoW Expac is filler...

As for WoD and why it sucks, I'm just 99% certain Chris Metzen was going through a lot of shit during that time.

[Black Rider]

The richest, most experienced chef in the world is still gonna take a while to slow roast a piece of meat; there's only so much that throwing money and knowledge at a problem can do anything. There are a couple of issues involved:

First, there is never going to be a situation in which a developer is able to put out more content than a player is able to play, that's just simple math, it's always going to take longer to design, code, create art assets for, compile and test content than it is for a player to just launch the game and play it. You can pad out that difference a little with outright timegating (or with soft timegating, like the RNG and reset locks on raid gear); or rely on the player keeping themselves entertained with the same content over and over for extended periods of time (see: PvP). But that's about it, not enough content is a fundamental and inescapable feature of video game design.

Second, the slowdowns in production are often things that money and resources cannot really deal with. For instance, often in beta one of the slowdowns for content release is the backend implementation of systems. That is, the actual programming of something like torghast (as an example) takes a great deal of time, and is not something that can be sped up much with money, because you can only have so many people actively writing and modifying the code. If you tried to do so you'd end up with confusion and mix ups (imagine trying to have 30 people simultaneously write one email).

These aren't Blizzard issues, but issues you'll find with any developer at all, regardless of how much money they have or how good their team is.

Partially Agree.
But what about lack of communication?
There is not even datamined info

[Dracullus]

Partially Agree.
But what about lack of communication?
There is not even datamined info

There isn't any lack of communication now. They won't reveal patch 3 while there is ongoing PTR for patch 2, even if it's smaller one. Only exceptions are Blizzcons.

Blizzard is doing great job since September. Problem was dead July-September period (of course there was reason for it, but that's irrelevant from customer POV) that will cause season 2 to last 2 more months, during Legion next PTR started ~2 weeks after patch went live.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That's why WoD is better than Shadowlands in my opinion. It released in November 2014 and received its last content patch, 6.2, 8 months later in june 2015. And in august 2015 2 months after 6.2 released, they announced Legion at gamescom. The expansion wasnt great but there was always something new and exciting to look forward to. Now with Shadowlands we had 1 content patch in 11 months and there are no signs of a .2 patch and let alone the next expansion. Rough times man

Better then wod? Like dude the content draught right now is NOTHING compared to WoD to Legion.

[Dracullus]

Better then wod? Like dude the content draught right now is NOTHING compared to WoD to Legion.

Content drought after all patches are done and expac finished are different beast than even smaller droughts every single patch. WoD had just 1 patch to begin it, but MoP is remembered fondly even despite 14 months drought... even better Timeless Isle is put on pedestal for some reason.

That's why delaying whole SL 6 months would be better in long run, even if initial sales would be worse. But there is also scandal that would blow up in July anyway xD. Tought times for Blizz.

[Sondrelk]

Content drought after all patches are done and expac finished are different beast than even smaller droughts every single patch. WoD had just 1 patch to begin it, but MoP is remembered fondly even despite 14 months drought... even better Timeless Isle is put on pedestal for some reason.

That's why delaying whole SL 6 months would be better in long run, even if initial sales would be worse. But there is also scandal that would blow up in July anyway xD. Tought times for Blizz.

It's remembered fondly because it's over 5 years old, and for that matter no longer needs to be experienced.
It's easy to sit and talk about all the cool zones and fun raids when you no longer have to actually sit around in your garrison all day doing absolutely nothing except consider whether to swap the stables and mage tower from one side of the garrison to the other.

All expansions feels like the absolute worst when it's current, because that is when you are forced to interract with the annoyances. Once its over you are free to only remember the good parts, which then inevitably gets compared to whatever is a problem currently.

[Varodoc]

It's remembered fondly because it's over 5 years old, and for that matter no longer needs to be experienced.
It's easy to sit and talk about all the cool zones and fun raids when you no longer have to actually sit around in your garrison all day doing absolutely nothing except consider whether to swap the stables and mage tower from one side of the garrison to the other.

All expansions feels like the absolute worst when it's current, because that is when you are forced to interract with the annoyances. Once its over you are free to only remember the good parts, which then inevitably gets compared to whatever is a problem currently.

Agreed, I'm sure that's the issue with Shadowlands. That it's the current expansion.

Obviously

[Sondrelk]

Agreed, I'm sure that's the issue with Shadowlands. That it's the current expansion.

Obviously

There are clearly problems, but none that are as potent a force as nostalgia can be.
MoP was great and all. but players talk about it like it didnt have a literal 14 month drought after the final raid. When players talk about Legion they never seem to want to talk about how 7.2 had possibly among the most boring and pitiful attempts at a raid "questline".

Bad stuff will almost always be forgotten or downplayed because people don't remember stuff like that, what they remember is the good stuff. Doubly so for WoD where the bad stuff was being bored, who afterall is going to dedicate mental storage to 5 months of running circles around Karabor when you could stick to remembering the first time you defeated Kargath, or when you finally defeat Blackhand on Heroic.

I absolutely remember WoD fondly, and the reason is because I no longer even consider the boring stuff. I just think back to pet battling with my buddy while waiting for the pug raids to fill, or the time I levelled through Shadowmoon valley for the first time, and when I first upgraded my garrison and felt an absolute rush as I heard that music sting for the first time.

Once Shadowlands is over I feel fairly confident I will start remembering mostly the good stuff as well. The first time I got into the Maw, or when I first saw the Spires of Ascension dungeon, upgrading my Necrolord sanctum or looking back at all my cool transmogs.
I certainly won't be spending all day thinking about the stuff I don't enjoy. Farming archivist rep in Korthia, or being starved for Anima when I want it the most. Just like when I think back to BfA I don't even really consider 8.3, or how I barely even consider Legiondaries as something that was even part of the experience of playing in Legion.

[Dracullus]

It's remembered fondly because it's over 5 years old, and for that matter no longer needs to be experienced.
It's easy to sit and talk about all the cool zones and fun raids when you no longer have to actually sit around in your garrison all day doing absolutely nothing except consider whether to swap the stables and mage tower from one side of the garrison to the other.

All expansions feels like the absolute worst when it's current, because that is when you are forced to interract with the annoyances. Once its over you are free to only remember the good parts, which then inevitably gets compared to whatever is a problem currently.

Nostalgia is massive factor too, but still some expacs are geting into Nostalgialands faster than others. MoP & Legion got pass soon after they ended, WoD had to wait few more years. First impressions are very important, patches need to be more frequent first few months after release.

Funny how Classic is crushing nostalgia from other side, so soon MoP will replace WoTLK on this throne xD.

[Sondrelk]

What is special about WoD is really just that it's biggest failing was how empty it was, and how boring it was to play. Once you remove that boring bit from the gameplay experience you can easily end up remembering WoD as a string of good raids and cool zones without even considering the boredom factor.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Nostalgia is massive factor too, but still some expacs are geting into Nostalgialands faster than others. MoP & Legion got pass soon after they ended, WoD had to wait few more years. First impressions are very important, patches need to be more frequent first few months after release.

Funny how Classic is crushing nostalgia from other side, so soon MoP will replace WoTLK on this throne xD.

I imagine other expansions would have different timelines if it to deal with something that hasn't happened before even MMOs were an idea in someone's head.

[Nyel]

I really don't think battling a world soul that threatened to destroy all Creation at the Seat of the Pantheon of Order itself within the crucible of all our reality, mind you, is something you really see everyday in WoW, either.

Just by reading this my brain exploded and that's exactly the reason why plots and storylines like this serve no purpose in WoW. Too convoluted, too complex.

[Varodoc]

I've never seen anyone try to pretend WoD didn't have huge content droughts. To this day it's made fun of for the Garrisons and lack of content as well as for the travesty that was 6.1. Though really 6.1 should have just been called 6.0.5, I guess Blizzard was too egotistical to call it like it was. 6.1 was effectively just a Patch 6.0.5. Imagine if the patch 7.3.5 from Legion which added allied races and one questline in Silithus was a separate patch entirely, it wouldn't be regarded well would it?

Regardless as I was saying people still shit talk WoD all the time, the "nostalgia" argument falls entirely. I've yet to see anyone claim that WoD was a good expansion with a lot of content. The people who defend the Garrisons have defended them since the start because they genuinely like the content (to each their own). And there are contents of WoD that are objectively good, like the questing and levelling experience and the raid designs. These things have been praised since Day 1, so nostalgia has nothing to do with it.

WoD still ranks consistently as the worst expansion WoW ever had, and the current expansion is often compared to WoD to see how shit it is. Popular youtubers literally make "WoD was the best expansion ever" as April's Fools joke ffs and you get reported for trolling if you make a thread called "Give us WoD legacy servers".

So it's false that nostalgia makes people forget, people haven't forgotten how shit WoD was. But it also had a lot of great content and that's just a fact.

But it is absolutely insane to try and argue that most people now see WoD as a great expansion, when it's consistently brought up as the worst expansion imaginable and both BfA and Shadowlands are compared to WoD to prove how shit they are

Even lorewise stuff like "Draenor is free!" has become a major meme and a massive stigma on the expansion's legacy. Anyone who claims the story of WoD was good was most likely a shill back when WoD was ongoing, in which case it's not nostalgia, just copium overdose.

[Vasoka]

Release date announcement tonight? Yay, nay?

[Sondrelk]

Release date announcement tonight? Yay, nay?

Nay

We still need to see Mage Tower Timewalking be at least somewhat tested.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Release date announcement tonight? Yay, nay?

I'd say a good indicator would be to see every feature available on the PTR.

Very likely next week or the week after we get feature complete 9.1.5 and then 2 more weeks for release.

https://twitter.com/Shadesogrey/stat...02391637868545
Associate Narrative Designer has a secret in the 9.1.5 PTR that no one has discovered yet. What could it be?

[Sondrelk]

I'd say a good indicator would be to see every feature available on the PTR.

Very likely next week or the week after we get feature complete 9.1.5 and then 2 more weeks for release.

https://twitter.com/Shadesogrey/stat...02391637868545
Associate Narrative Designer has a secret in the 9.1.5 PTR that no one has discovered yet. What could it be?

There are still supposedly secrets from 9.0 that hasnt been discovered yet. There is a specific item you can make with path of ascension crafting that seemingly has no real use, seemingly begging players to find some secret with.

[Black Rider]

I'd say a good indicator would be to see every feature available on the PTR.

Very likely next week or the week after we get feature complete 9.1.5 and then 2 more weeks for release.

https://twitter.com/Shadesogrey/stat...02391637868545
Associate Narrative Designer has a secret in the 9.1.5 PTR that no one has discovered yet. What could it be?

Some Cinematic?
What could Narrative Designer point to @Marlamin