1. #73921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Hutchinson is term-limited, so he is just riding it out anyway.
    Hmm. Interesting.

    Normally I would say "well he's a lame duck, why not stand for his pricinples?" but we all know the anwer: Trump supporters might literally kill him.

  2. #73922
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    A recent Harvard study explained what dangerous political territory the GOP has gone to. Studying the rise of authoritarian fascist leaders, what typically stops them is the entrenched wise leadership in the party that stops it before it goes too far. Trump isn't the first authoritarian trying to use the GOP. David Duke, McGovern, even Nixon were not far from Trump. But the difference is in the past the GOP didn't give the authoritarian leader a blank check. Nixon was forced to resign, the GOP didn't take his side and attack the (true) Watergate story as 'fake news'. However, that changed when the GOP opted not prosecute Trump on impeachment, and then embraced Trumpism to the extreme.

    So I do fear for the future of democracy in our country in a way I have never in the past. Trump may or may not be allowed to run because of his 1/6 insurrection planning and support, but I don't think the GOP will stop him. He also may or may not survive until 2024, he'll be 78 years old then and has been obese for decades. In a normal election, democrats would easily win in 2024. The sitting President gets about 5 points off the start as the incumbent, and Trump couldn't win as the sitting President. The wrinkle in that is the GOP's radical gerrymandering that they've done and are doing wherever they can to change future election results. Minorities are being gerrymandered out of their votes mattering left and right in the south. So that could cause some surprises but that's also something that still might be addressed hopefully. The electoral college simply needs to be abolished to make gerrrymandering and which state you reside in irrelevant when voting for President, as it should be. One vote should have the value of one vote, no matter which state you live in or what district you've been gerrymandered into, and today it doesn't.

  3. #73923
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    Some basketball player I don't know explains his decision to not get vaccinated, which I believe is now the most common excuse used:

    I just don't want to
    "Har har. What did he really say?"

    I’m standing with all those that believe what is right. Everybody is entitled to do what they feel is what’s best for themselves. Seeing the way this is dividing our world up, it’s sad to see. People are losing jobs to mandates,
    Let's kick those easy parts right between the crossbars.
    1) People are not losing their jobs to mandates. People are losing their jobs for refusing to follow mandates.
    2) And before we get into any attempt to dance around semantics on that one, do you know what else is mandated at most jobs? Pants. If I show up to teach without wearing pants, or any equivalent, my bare ass gets fired, probably on the spot. And it's not the fault of the left's unfair pants mandate. It's the fault of me showing up to work with my dick hanging out.
    3) This also applies to the "division". Another way to look at it, is the world is divided by those who choose to murder and steal, and those who don't. That's a division, and it's a pretty big one. When people choose to do things that are illegal and dangerous, you don't get to hide behind "well it's a shame to see the world divided, I'm standing with the murderers and thieves" without, well, self-identifying as a murderer or thief. When the division is being caused by one side looking at health and common sense and then just not doing it because they don't want to, "oh no the world is divided" isn't the correct response. "I choose not to stand with health and common sense" is.

    And of course, the big one.

    4) "Everybody is entitled to do what they feel is what’s best for themselves" has another name: Neutral Evil.

    "Whoa whoa whoa! It sounds way more True Neutral than that!"

    It does not.

    First, while True Neutral characters are looking out for themselves, they are also looking out for any organization they are part of. This basketball player is not. His choice benched him indefinitely.

    Second, while True Neutral characters are looking for balance, they are not looking for balance in the form of "nobody has been murdered recently, so I will murder people". And even if they did, this basketball player is not saying he's trying to bring balance to the universe anyhow.

    Third, while True Neutral characters accept that bad/evil things happen to other people, they don't go out of their way to be the cause of it. They will respond to a threat, but a basketball player does not have his health threatened by vaccinated players or the vaccine itself.

    Fourth, a True Neutral character keeps their word -- such as a signed contract -- until doing so puts them at even greater risk. Getting a vaccine is not a greater risk, nor was this the basketball player's excuse. A True Neutral character will follow the law and social norms while advantageous to do so. Losing your job, because you did not follow the contract, does not fit this.

    And fifth, True Neutral characters are offended by those who take extreme views, which this basketball player is espousing. True Neutral characters do not force others to take a stance on a moral or ethical issue, which this basketball player did. A True Neutral character will take risks if the reward is great enough. This guy got fired, which he knew ahead of time he would be, so this doesn't fit.

    By contrast, Neutral Evil characters do whatever they can get away with, even if it harms others. This basketball player was intentionally taking steps to make himself a threat. It wasn't that he accepted that COVID would happen to other people, he was insisting he be part of that chain. You could argue that his intentionally breaking a contract/social norms would make him Chaotic Evil, but he at least claimed he wasn't doing it just to be disruptive. He said he was looking out for himself...by being a risk to his fellow man and by being fired.

    There is, of course, the possibility that the basketball player is simply lying. I'm not sure that makes him less evil.

    Just to be clear, disobeying an order or contract is not inherently evil. But this one was for the health and safety of the organization, the people in it, the fans, and basically just people in general while we're at it. If the country/state/city/county has a law "please don't discharge firearms randomly, you might hit someone" and your response is "fuck you, I'll do what I want! *BLAM BLAM BLAM*" you are not being a brave conscientious objector. You're not trying to bring balance to the universe. And no, you're not doing "what's right for you". You're being an asshole, and if you hit someone, a violent criminal as well.

  4. #73924
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Some basketball player I don't know explains his decision to not get vaccinated, which I believe is now the most common excuse used:



    "Har har. What did he really say?"



    Let's kick those easy parts right between the crossbars.
    1) People are not losing their jobs to mandates. People are losing their jobs for refusing to follow mandates.
    2) And before we get into any attempt to dance around semantics on that one, do you know what else is mandated at most jobs? Pants. If I show up to teach without wearing pants, or any equivalent, my bare ass gets fired, probably on the spot. And it's not the fault of the left's unfair pants mandate. It's the fault of me showing up to work with my dick hanging out.
    3) This also applies to the "division". Another way to look at it, is the world is divided by those who choose to murder and steal, and those who don't. That's a division, and it's a pretty big one. When people choose to do things that are illegal and dangerous, you don't get to hide behind "well it's a shame to see the world divided, I'm standing with the murderers and thieves" without, well, self-identifying as a murderer or thief. When the division is being caused by one side looking at health and common sense and then just not doing it because they don't want to, "oh no the world is divided" isn't the correct response. "I choose not to stand with health and common sense" is.

    And of course, the big one.

    4) "Everybody is entitled to do what they feel is what’s best for themselves" has another name: Neutral Evil.

    "Whoa whoa whoa! It sounds way more True Neutral than that!"

    It does not.

    First, while True Neutral characters are looking out for themselves, they are also looking out for any organization they are part of. This basketball player is not. His choice benched him indefinitely.

    Second, while True Neutral characters are looking for balance, they are not looking for balance in the form of "nobody has been murdered recently, so I will murder people". And even if they did, this basketball player is not saying he's trying to bring balance to the universe anyhow.

    Third, while True Neutral characters accept that bad/evil things happen to other people, they don't go out of their way to be the cause of it. They will respond to a threat, but a basketball player does not have his health threatened by vaccinated players or the vaccine itself.

    Fourth, a True Neutral character keeps their word -- such as a signed contract -- until doing so puts them at even greater risk. Getting a vaccine is not a greater risk, nor was this the basketball player's excuse. A True Neutral character will follow the law and social norms while advantageous to do so. Losing your job, because you did not follow the contract, does not fit this.

    And fifth, True Neutral characters are offended by those who take extreme views, which this basketball player is espousing. True Neutral characters do not force others to take a stance on a moral or ethical issue, which this basketball player did. A True Neutral character will take risks if the reward is great enough. This guy got fired, which he knew ahead of time he would be, so this doesn't fit.

    By contrast, Neutral Evil characters do whatever they can get away with, even if it harms others. This basketball player was intentionally taking steps to make himself a threat. It wasn't that he accepted that COVID would happen to other people, he was insisting he be part of that chain. You could argue that his intentionally breaking a contract/social norms would make him Chaotic Evil, but he at least claimed he wasn't doing it just to be disruptive. He said he was looking out for himself...by being a risk to his fellow man and by being fired.

    There is, of course, the possibility that the basketball player is simply lying. I'm not sure that makes him less evil.

    Just to be clear, disobeying an order or contract is not inherently evil. But this one was for the health and safety of the organization, the people in it, the fans, and basically just people in general while we're at it. If the country/state/city/county has a law "please don't discharge firearms randomly, you might hit someone" and your response is "fuck you, I'll do what I want! *BLAM BLAM BLAM*" you are not being a brave conscientious objector. You're not trying to bring balance to the universe. And no, you're not doing "what's right for you". You're being an asshole, and if you hit someone, a violent criminal as well.
    You're saying some random guy in Brooklyn is using their media platform to spew some nonsense?

    First time here?

    /joke

  5. #73925
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    Quote Originally Posted by KuerbisgeschmackShake View Post
    You're saying some random guy in Brooklyn is using their media platform to spew some nonsense?
    You joke, but it's not nonsense. He's basically saying "I just want to be allowed to hurt and kill people, without consequences". He's announcing that he's evil, and doesn't expect there to be any fallout. And it's not just him.

  6. #73926
    Oh ...people don't know Kirye Irving? From his statement:

    "You think I really want to give up my dream to go after a championship?" Irving asked.

    I answer: YES

    "Do you think I really just want to give up my job?"

    YES, again.

    " You think I really just want to sit at home and not go after the things with my teammates that I've been able to grow with, to learn with?"

    Yes, for the third time.

    You want all those 3 because you are an ignorant flatearther who didn't take the opportunity your basketball talent gave you to get actually educated.

    I guess people who don't follow NBA does not know him but Mr.Irving is the perfect example of conspiranoic. It didn't start with coronavirus no, way before that whatever the fuck the crazy thing you could think of.. he believed it. Flat Earth, Fake moon landing, secret World government, Aliens...you name it: Irving was there.

    I mean...you are Australian dude!!! You were born in Melbourne...you have travelled many times there. How the friggin fuck a multimillionaire American-Australian can be a flatearther?


    But let's not forget this jewel:

    Irving, who serves as a vice president on the executive committee of the players’ union, recently started following and liking Instagram posts from a conspiracy theorist who claims that “secret societies” are implanting vaccines in a plot to connect Black people to a master computer for “a plan of Satan.”
    Mate you could have opened a book at least once in college.

  7. #73927
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    So has Trump secretly been a Democrat plant the whole time?

    Actually encouraging Republicans not to vote? That's...insane.
    It's what he did in 2020 when the polls didn't show him in the lead... It's one of the factors that drove Georgia blue, he actively campaigned to boycott voting because they were "rigged" anyways.

  8. #73928
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    The wrinkle in that is the GOP's radical gerrymandering that they've done and are doing wherever they can to change future election results. Minorities are being gerrymandered out of their votes mattering left and right in the south. So that could cause some surprises but that's also something that still might be addressed hopefully. The electoral college simply needs to be abolished to make gerrrymandering and which state you reside in irrelevant when voting for President, as it should be. One vote should have the value of one vote, no matter which state you live in or what district you've been gerrymandered into, and today it doesn't.
    <sigh>

    Again, gerrymandering does not directly affect the Electoral College (with the exception of Maine and Nebraska). It does not affect the US Senate, state governors, or state senates. The only things that gerrymandering directly affects are the US House of Representatives and state representatives.

    Its effects on state legislatures might be viewed as having an effect on state voting laws, but the impact is relatively slight, considering that changing those voting laws would also typically require the state governor and senate to be firmly GoP as well, which means that the state representative branch would likely be controlled by the GoP even without gerrymandering.

    There are plenty of reasons to fight against gerrymandering, but it realistically has nothing to do with presidential elections.


    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Some basketball player I don't know explains his decision to not get vaccinated...
    As an aside, anybody who follows the NBA at all knows who Kyrie Irving is, so he's not just some no-name baller. He currently makes 35 million a year, which is the 16th highest salary in the NBA. He's also an idiot flat-earther, of course, so even people who don't normally follow the NBA might know of him.


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  9. #73929
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    <sigh>

    Again, gerrymandering does not directly affect the Electoral College (with the exception of Maine and Nebraska). It does not affect the US Senate, state governors, or state senates. The only things that gerrymandering directly affects are the US House of Representatives and state representatives.

    Its effects on state legislatures might be viewed as having an effect on state voting laws, but the impact is relatively slight, considering that changing those voting laws would also typically require the state governor and senate to be firmly GoP as well, which means that the state representative branch would likely be controlled by the GoP even without gerrymandering.

    There are plenty of reasons to fight against gerrymandering, but it realistically has nothing to do with presidential elections.



    As an aside, anybody who follows the NBA at all knows who Kyrie Irving is, so he's not just some no-name baller. He currently makes 35 million a year, which is the 16th highest salary in the NBA. He's also an idiot flat-earther, of course, so even people who don't normally follow the NBA might know of him.
    I have to disagree some on this. As a resident of North Carolina, we are red on paper only due to gerrymandering.

    That gerrymandering not only impacts EVERY seat voting on by district but also every other position nominated or voted on by those voted on by district. You see how far they have been going to get power against the will of the people.

    This is a state were a 50/50 vote gets a 3/10 split in our seats alone, even the Democrats getting 55% of the vote only gets them 4 seats while the losers got the other 9.

    And what have they tried to do with that? They have tried repeatedly to make it HARDER to vote in ways that impacts the local level on up to the national level. Remember, the Supreme Court had to overrule their voter IDs because it was so brazen that they had done studies to find out which forms of ID minorities were most likely to lack to require them with surgical precision to remove them from the rolls.

    Cooper is the main reason why haven't been as screwed up as we could have been and they have been trying to screw around then. They tried to override one of his veto's and to do so, they waited till the 9/11 memorial to hold an unscheduled a vote when most of them were out at the lower house which made news.

    So when it came to the other house, they had it scheduled multiple times to come up for the vote and each time they canceled it because the Democrats showed up with enough to make sure they couldn't override it and were called out for it on camera with one of them responding that they will hold the vote "In Time" and they hope he isn't there when it does. And from then the budget was stuck in continuing resolutions for a while because the Republicans refused to hold votes on it.

    You underestimate just how much impact they have on the national makeup.

    Gerrymandering directly impacts the Congress along with all local offices voted on by district or voted on by those voted on by district.
    The voter suppression it allows further impacts the Senate and President by them trying to make it harder for people to vote strategically.

    Just in Texas, I remember about them trying to mandate voter ID and then started strategically closing places they could get IDs making it where a minority might be stuck driving 3 counties over for an ID at a place with reduced hours. Or just look at the stuff they just recently passed where Jimbob Hodunk in his deer stand can use his gun permit as a valid ID to vote even if he can't spell his own name without help while the college student won't be allowed to use his college ID even though he is demonstrating a desire to learn and think critically about this stuff. Mainly because his ability to learn and think critically makes him more likely to reject the modern republican party and any incarnation of it of the past 150 years.
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  10. #73930
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Its effects on state legislatures might be viewed as having an effect on state voting laws, but the impact is relatively slight, considering that changing those voting laws would also typically require the state governor and senate to be firmly GoP as well, which means that the state representative branch would likely be controlled by the GoP even without gerrymandering.
    https://ballotpedia.org/Veto_overrid...e_legislatures

    Vetoes can happen and way too many GOP states can over-ride their governors even if a Dem gets a elected.

    I am pleasantly pleased to see that Wisconsin has fallen off this list. Its one of the most aggressively GOP gerrymandered states.

  11. #73931
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluespiderman57 View Post
    https://www.businessinsider.com/gop-...n-2022-2021-10



    I mean, if nothing else it's an interesting take. But to anyone who has been paying attention the last 5 years, it's kinda ridiculous. Serious, who do they think they are talking to? How many years have we heard of the evils of the 'demoncrats'? And now they want their constituents to vote for them? Not only that, but why do they think their voters even want "Rational Republicans"? I think it's been made pretty clear what they want is bread and circuses.



    Nooooo, Trump got even more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. Biden won in 2020 because progressives got over themselves, held their noses, and voted for him.
    Outside of the minor progressive faction, the Dems and pre Trump republicans aren't all that different anyway. They are basically the same for all practical purposes.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  12. #73932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I have to disagree some on this. As a resident of North Carolina, we are red on paper only due to gerrymandering.
    Just no. Full stop. North Carolina has had their popular vote go to the GoP in every election since 1980 with the sole exception of 2008 by a razor-thin margin of 0.32% or 14k votes.

    Also, the NC state senate has been GoP controlled since 2011. You're not "red on paper due to gerrymandering".


    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Just in Texas...
    Texas has also had their popular vote go to the GoP since 1980. They didn't even have an exception for 2008. They've had a trifecta of state governance for the last 18 years. Their state house of representatives would almost certainly be GoP-led even without gerrymandering.

    Nobody is arguing that there aren't problems with the Electoral College.

    Nobody is arguing that voter suppression laws are acceptable.

    Nobody is arguing that gerrymandering isn't a huge issue.

    But gerrymandering is not the problem with presidential elections.


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  13. #73933
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Just no. Full stop. North Carolina has had their popular vote go to the GoP in every election since 1980 with the sole exception of 2008 by a razor-thin margin of 0.32% or 14k votes.

    Also, the NC state senate has been GoP controlled since 2011. You're not "red on paper due to gerrymandering".



    Texas has also had their popular vote go to the GoP since 1980. They didn't even have an exception for 2008. They've had a trifecta of state governance for the last 18 years. Their state house of representatives would almost certainly be GoP-led even without gerrymandering.

    Nobody is arguing that there aren't problems with the Electoral College.

    Nobody is arguing that voter suppression laws are acceptable.

    Nobody is arguing that gerrymandering isn't a huge issue.

    But gerrymandering is not the problem with presidential elections.
    Actually, you might want to look into the details more. I am a resident of North Carolina.

    And using 2018 as an example, while the Republicans like to mention how the overall was roughly a 50/50 split in popular vote with a slight red edge. But they neglect that in one of the districts, the the Republican candidate ran completely unopposed.

    Out of the 12 CONTESTED districts, the Republicans LOST by over 164,000 votes and got 9 of those contested seats themselves. You have to look at the local level stuff as that also directly impacts the national level stuff with how they do stuff.

    I remember another year where the local level results had the Democrats win the majority while still getting minority of the seats.


    Also, notice how you said it was GOP controlled since 2011, when was the last redistricting done again? And how were our 13 seats spread BEFORE that redistricting.

    Gerrymandering's impacts ARE a problem with the presidential elections unfortunately as they allow them to do stuff at the local level that impacts the votes at the national level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here:

    https://www.270towin.com/states/North_Carolina

    As I said, you look at our history and the impact of the last redistricting, North Carolina is red on paper only. By will of the people it is firmly purple with a slight blue edge.
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  14. #73934
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Also, the NC state senate has been GoP controlled since 2011. You're not "red on paper due to gerrymandering".
    Correct. He should have said “due to gerrymandering and voter suppression”.

    In NC, the GOP have had narrow margins of victory the past 10 years and even lost most races in 2018. This hasn’t translated into meaningful seat gains for the Dems however. Gerrymandering has preserved GOP power in NC.

  15. #73935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    As I said, you look at our history and the impact of the last redistricting, North Carolina is red on paper only. By will of the people it is firmly purple with a slight blue edge.
    Uh... by the will of the people, your state has voted GoP in 10 of the last 11 presidential elections.

    It's like you're trying to tell me that the sky is green right now. Just no. There's no "slight blue edge".

    What the actual fuck.


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  16. #73936
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Uh... by the will of the people, your state has voted GoP in 10 of the last 11 presidential elections.

    It's like you're trying to tell me that the sky is green right now. Just no. There's no "slight blue edge".

    What the actual fuck.
    And by will of the people, how did they vote at the local levels? Versus who we actually got, I gave you a link to help.
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  17. #73937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Correct. He should have said “due to gerrymandering and voter suppression”.

    In NC, the GOP have had narrow margins of victory the past 10 years and even lost most races in 2018. This hasn’t translated into meaningful seat gains for the Dems however. Gerrymandering has preserved GOP power in NC.
    This may be true, but it has no bearing on the fact that NC has voted for the GoP in presidential elections for the past 40 years with the narrow exception of Obama's first term.

    While the current trend is for state legislatures to attempt voter suppression laws to attempt to maintain the relevance of the GoP going forward, you'll have to source the laws that you're claiming are responsible for the GoP's success of the past 40 years. Because otherwise, the state popular vote is the state popular vote, and it assuredly leans red.


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  18. #73938
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    This may be true, but it has no bearing on the fact that NC has voted for the GoP in presidential elections for the past 40 years with the narrow exception of Obama's first term.

    While the current trend is for state legislatures to attempt voter suppression laws to attempt to maintain the relevance of the GoP going forward, you'll have to source the laws that you're claiming are responsible for the GoP's success of the past 40 years. Because otherwise, the state popular vote is the state popular vote, and it assuredly leans red.
    The states popular vote on the local offices doesn't suddenly cease to be relevant either. Their representation in congress matters. And their suppression for the larger offices impact them as well.
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  19. #73939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    And by will of the people, how did they vote at the local levels? Versus who we actually got, I gave you a link to help.
    Let me repeat this, because you seem to be mightily befuddled right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Nobody is arguing that there aren't problems with the Electoral College.

    Nobody is arguing that voter suppression laws are acceptable.

    Nobody is arguing that gerrymandering isn't a huge issue.

    But gerrymandering is not the problem with presidential elections.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    The states popular vote on the local offices doesn't suddenly cease to be relevant either. Their representation in congress matters. And their suppression for the larger offices impact them as well.
    Read my last post, you're still confused.


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  20. #73940
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Let me repeat this, because you seem to be mightily befuddled right now.
    Gerrymandering is a problem at the national elections due to how they can be used to suppress the votes and is becoming an even BIGGER problem as things are progressing.

    I am not saying they were the make or break issue of the past few decades, but is was AN issue and is becoming an increasingly bigger issue as the years are going along, being put on steroids after the ~2011 redistricting where they used computers to gerrymander with laser precision.
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