To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Iliena]

Those questions are soooo poorly worded-- at the very least. Let's go one by one:

Not really, the question's were directed to the guy I quoted not the forum in general, you might have missed the part where I said "questions for you" directly under my reply to him, seeing he was giving the same stock reply people have been giving since 2004 when people have the nerve to post something negative about the state of WoW,

I'm sorry you wasted you time replying and I wont critique your answers, you failed to notice the nuance in my line of questions so it would be moot.

[Soon-TM]

Fellas, i got to say the amount of mental gymnastics to justify the state of WoW that are being pulled by some is so stunning that it almost warrants its own olympic discipline.

You all can enjoy the game. There is nothing wrong with it... But you can not honestly deny WoW is in a sorry state if there ever was one... And putting fingers into your ears, making loud noises to ignore the complaints is exactly why they got away with this shit ever since they started slacking, because thats definitely what they did.

Also dont just disregard everyone who is mad at all the problems, just because you still enjoy it. Im pretty sure most people are mad because they want WoW to get its shit together, not because they want to see it fail so hard.

White knights getting defensive as all !@#$ and circling the wagons tells you everything you need to know about the state of the game. Especially when some long time Blizzard defenders, even in these very boards, have already jumped ship.

[khazmodan]

Fellas, i got to say the amount of mental gymnastics to justify the state of WoW that are being pulled by some is so stunning that it almost warrants its own olympic discipline.

You all can enjoy the game. There is nothing wrong with it... But you can not honestly deny WoW is in a sorry state if there ever was one... And putting fingers into your ears, making loud noises to ignore the complaints is exactly why they got away with this shit ever since they started slacking, because thats definitely what they did.

Also dont just disregard everyone who is mad at all the problems, just because you still enjoy it. Im pretty sure most people are mad because they want WoW to get its shit together, not because they want to see it fail so hard.

Well said, a few people hanging on because of time invested and hoping for WoW to come back and be big again is understandable but WoW in its current state is a copy paste time sink scam that is about as phoned in as a corporate pizza party for the cleaning crew. I have come back for every expansion pack hoping for new content with the same joy of exploration that I felt in the early expansions and don't tell me its because of my age because I was 36 years old when I started playing and it was freaking amazing. Each expansion though has kept me interested for less time and it's because of a trend towards less focus on what is fun and depth of experience and more focus on short term cash grabs and shallow rng grinds. I would love for WoW to be the best in mmo's again but they have lost too much talent and Bobby "nodick" Kotick is still at the helm, acting like a serial killer running the Red Cross. R.I.P. WoW, it was a hell of a ride but the coaster has been slowing down for years and there are too many other rides at this amusement park.

[Indigenously Abled]

White knights getting defensive as all !@#$ and circling the wagons tells you everything you need to know about the state of the game. Especially when some long time Blizzard defenders, even in these very boards, have already jumped ship.

And there are those whose motives are purely to elicit engagement, under false pretenses, with ulterior motives, but are never infracted/moderated in any meaningful way. Imagine.

[Echo of Soul]

the tears of people on the forums i sware lolo

If you left the game for FF then why tf are you even here? I say this because people that are long gone/banned/suck at the game - it's like why do you feel like you need to come back to defend youtube/twitch people that DO NOT want your help defending them in the first place.

Just go, leave the people that still play the game in peace lol

You do realize that you can play more than one game right? It's okay neither Ion or Yoshi-P will come over to your house and murder you if you play both games. You can play 15 MMOs if you want, nobody cares.

- - - Updated - - -

Yoshida mentioned in a digital preview event that FF14 recently hit 24 million players. That's more than double where the game sat in 2017, reaching 10 million subscribers with the game's second major expansion, Stormblood.

And 6 months ago that number was 22 million. So they've gained 2 million new players since then and I do believe that they don't count people who are on the free trial, it's only those that have bought and subbed to the game that gets counted towards those 24 million.

Considering that the servers can't handle the amount of refugees from WoW it's not really surprising that the growth have been that big. Good for them, let's just hope that WoW can turn the ship around and get at least some of those players to consider playing both games.

[Kaleredar]

Fellas, i got to say the amount of mental gymnastics to justify the state of WoW that are being pulled by some is so stunning that it almost warrants its own olympic discipline.

You all can enjoy the game. There is nothing wrong with it... But you can not honestly deny WoW is in a sorry state if there ever was one... And putting fingers into your ears, making loud noises to ignore the complaints is exactly why they got away with this shit ever since they started slacking, because thats definitely what they did.

Also dont just disregard everyone who is mad at all the problems, just because you still enjoy it. Im pretty sure most people are mad because they want WoW to get its shit together, not because they want to see it fail so hard.

And on that same token, people can not enjoy WoW.

But that doesn't mean that their opinions on how the game should be made are particularly informed or relevant. Hell, we still have to deal with the player-driven "remove flying" nonsense every expansion, and the removal of flight is one of the most fatiguing things that turns WoW into a chore. You burn people out early on in the expansion cycle because it takes so damn long to do anything. But hey, that was a design choice driven by player whining circa end-of-MoP.


I don't follow the WoW youtubers... they all seem like generally insufferable people who have found there are more clicks to be had from the people that played WoW for a long time and treat it like some bitter ex, and tailor their content as such. As such, the fact that they're some schmuck with a youtube channel doesn't make their opinions particularly informed or valid.

[Dracullus]

And 6 months ago that number was 22 million. So they've gained 2 million new players since then and I do believe that they don't count people who are on the free trial, it's only those that have bought and subbed to the game that gets counted towards those 24 million.

Considering that the servers can't handle the amount of refugees from WoW it's not really surprising that the growth have been that big. Good for them, let's just hope that WoW can turn the ship around and get at least some of those players to consider playing both games.

All we know 2 million people registered FF14 trial account in 6 months. How many bounced off after 5 minutes? How many played only free part? These we don't know, both Blizzard and SE don't show sub numbers. Still some people pretend FF14 is #1 in popularity, person who you quoted even seem to think it had 10M subs in some older expac, probably not realizing that WoW had 100M accounts back in 2013.

Next month will be true test for FF14 if it's on par with WoW (from popularity POV of course, I don't speak about quality here). If they show us any sales numbers of course.

[Echo of Soul]

All we know 2 million people registered FF14 trial account in 6 months. How many bounced off after 5 minutes? How many played only free part? These we don't know, both Blizzard and SE don't show sub numbers. Still some people pretend FF14 is #1 in popularity, person who you quoted even seem to think it had 10M subs in some older expac, probably not realizing that WoW had 100M accounts back in 2013.

Next month will be true test for FF14 if it's on par with WoW (from popularity POV of course, I don't speak about quality here). If they show us any sales numbers of course.

They don't count trial accounts when they give out these updates since it doesn't count as a sell. For FFXIV to become the best selling FF title the number of players that they count must have actually bought the game.

You are kinda right though. It's impossible to know how many of those 2 million that bought the game stuck with the game. Although they could have as low as a 50% retention rate and it would still be amazing.

[Stickiler]

They don't count trial accounts when they give out these updates since it doesn't count as a sell. For FFXIV to become the best selling FF title the number of players that they count must have actually bought the game.

That's not true, when they gave the 22 Million users announcement, they specifically said that it is accounts registered, including free trials. source -> https://dengekionline.com/articles/74748/

[exochaft]

And on that same token, people can not enjoy WoW.

But that doesn't mean that their opinions on how the game should be made are particularly informed or relevant. Hell, we still have to deal with the player-driven "remove flying" nonsense every expansion, and the removal of flight is one of the most fatiguing things that turns WoW into a chore. You burn people out early on in the expansion cycle because it takes so damn long to do anything. But hey, that was a design choice driven by player whining circa end-of-MoP.

There are complaints/issues that resonate with some of the players, and then there's complaints/issues that resonate with most of the players. Sometimes the issues stem from previous changes or are embedded into the game to where their fixes may come at a cost that people might not like... it's a more accurate "you think you do, but you don't" as it relates to the state of the game. This is especially the case when it comes to players wanting a convenience that has more costs than they likely realize.

As an example, the devs even admitted that adding flying back in the day was probably not a good idea, and there's reasons for that. One issue is flying heavily complicates zone design and implementation, trickling down into questing, perceived sizes of zones, immersion, and so forth. Even with just this one issue (and there's more issues that come up due to the existence of flying), the amount of development time to account for all of these is not small. The catch-22 that would solve these issues is that the development cycle would likely increase by a tangible amount (not even factoring in all the other aspects of the game that need a fix), but many players probably don't want to wait longer... and I'm not sure anymore if the overlords at ActiBlizz would allow a longer development cycle. Regardless, I love flying, but I can also understand if Blizz wanted to remove flying as well as their insistence on disabling flying for a while into an xpac. Any solution at this point is going to upset some set of players, which is why flying is one of those issues where players are on either side.

A general example of where the players are probably united, for the most part, is that the game is way too RNG-based and could use a little more deterministic systems for bad luck protection. Obviously this subject is broad, and the case-by-case application would likely be wildly different depending upon which aspect of the game we're talking about, but this issue is something likely every player has experienced. Players may not agree on the solutions, but they probably agree upon the problem.

That being said, this stems into the relationship between the YouTubers and testers who you see on the internet and the testing phases of the game itself. I've personally been involved with the alpha/beta/PTR testing for years, and 9.1 was the first PTR I did not test. However, one thing that you will have universally heard leading up to 9.1 was that a lot of the problems with the current game were brought up in the testing phase, and Blizz has been either ignoring or retroactively gaslighting the players when they attempt to address the problems later.

As an example, people may recall that there was a large ban wave at the start of 8.3 in relation to the N'zoth invasions... but then it suddenly got completely reverted half a day later with not much fanfare. So what was that ban wave about? Well, it's in relation to a bug report I had submitted several times on the PTR leading up to 8.3's release, which gave Blizz roughly a month to fix this issue... which I had described on the PTR as "potentially an exploit, the mechanic isn't clear enough to implicate it as such"... because (another one of my issues) is that their testing goals and intentions are increasingly vague. Basically, as some may recall, you could infinitely farm the key to open the big N'zoth chest in the invasion area for a bit of currency; nothing too earth shattering, and you didn't need to do anything exploitative to make this happen, you just farmed key parts and just visited the big chest and opened it every time. However, the Blizz reaction to the whole scenario was "sorry about that, we didn't know such a bug existed, we thought people were exploited, sure wish we noticed this on the PTR!". I highly doubt I was the only player to report this issue on the PTR, but this sort of feigning ignorance has become rampant in the Blizz testing cycles.

Love 'em or hate 'em, a good amount of the streamers have access to the testing phases of the game and do provide feedback. However, the issue isn't necessarily the feedback they provide, it's just that Blizz seems to be only listening to the feedback they want to hear. Doesn't help Blizz rarely gives any direction as to what specifically to test and how the systems are intended to work, so if an issue is framed in a way that doesn't line up with their preconceived notions, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets ignored. The Shadowlands beta was probably filled with this sort of behavior by Blizz, because all the positive changes you're seeing slated for 9.1.5 were all suggestions or in response to issues that were brought up at the latest in the Shadowlands beta. Heck, some old content issues were brought up when their xpacs were current and are now only getting fixed years later. If you want to show ire towards someone, aim it where it deserves to be: Blizz.

[Geckoo]

Yoshida added that leaving a game like World of Warcraft and revisiting it sometime later might allow players to "re-recognize some of the items they had taken for granted." For Yoshida, this even includes Final Fantasy 14 players taking a break from his game to play New World.

"That's wonderful," Yoshida said. "I think it is important that we come in contact with new games. It's a new kind of stimulation, so it keeps us fresh."

That kind of mentality is part of why the game is successful. It's all about respecting people's time and the game is designed to reflect that mentality. I have no doubt that WoW devs would share the same opinion on a personal level, but their game tells a very different story.

[Askyl]

Might come as a shock but this forum is MMO-champion, not WoW-champion and does cater to other games, also people not currently subbed can still want the game to be good again and many would come back if they do get it back on track, saying nothing it will carry on declining and if the numbers get to low might end up in maintenance mode.

So a few questions for you:

Are you are 100% happy with the retail game?
Is the game currently the best it has ever been?
Do you like the systems for borrowed power they choose to use this expansion?
Do you like the pace of updates in Shadowlands?
Do you like the long wait for new raid content?
Do you enjoy the open world content this expansion?
Do you enjoy the fact there is nothing really new been added?

Might come as a shock to you but it IS WoW-champion
Its name is MMO-champ because wow is the champion, the biggest and the best.

Being critical does not equal being a douche with hivemind spewing out shit.

You are just acting Toxic. Step it up a bit and people might respond to you with respect.

[crusadernero]

Imagine being upset or happy that people play X/Y MMORPG. imagine giving one flying F. Content creators never made wow better or worse for me when playing wow, I couldnt care less that they are gone. I either dont care that others play FF. I find FF a shit MMORPG, but its fine others like it. Each to theyre own.

[potis]

That kind of mentality is part of why the game is successful. It's all about respecting people's time and the game is designed to reflect that mentality. I have no doubt that WoW devs would share the same opinion on a personal level, but their game tells a very different story.

Problem with WoW for the majority of you is that you have been playing for too long and their design which is their correct for 2021, is something you guys dont like, you want 400 hours of questing on a game you have maxed out.

And Yoshida is not an idiot, he knows, therefor he is telling you politely "Fuck off, play something else that gives you that feeling, aka a new game, come back for the next content cause its not possible to create content faster than you consume it".

[Polybius]

Thankfully we don't need to worry about this anymore. Blizzard has lost around 2 million players to FFXIV in the last 6 months and among them are all the content creators.
It's probably for the best. Only the hardcore Blizzard fans should be allowed to play their games.

They've lost much more than that over the years. We've seen what catering to a hardcore (players with more time in their hands, really) audience does to a game (hello, Wildstar), so I'm hoping this is sarcasm or not serious.

[glowpipe]

This thread will not go very far.

So this was a lie

[Polybius]

Those who dont like WoW should just leave, so those who like WoW can enjoy it without cry babies around. I wish WoW developers stop trying catering to everyone, because in the end they'll not please anyone.

Agreed. They can start by not catering to the lowest common denominator, starting with the investors who don't play the game.

[Manniis]

Problem with WoW for the majority of you is that you have been playing for too long and their design which is their correct for 2021, is something you guys dont like, you want 400 hours of questing on a game you have maxed out.

And Yoshida is not an idiot, he knows, therefor he is telling you politely "Fuck off, play something else that gives you that feeling, aka a new game, come back for the next content cause its not possible to create content faster than you consume it".

I think this is excactly it. From the influencer side, Asmongold has personal beef with the dev team to a point where no changes will ever be positive enough for him, you had a few other guys like Flame and richy(?) who had their "epic gamer moments, and were literally screaming at the screen on stream about the state of the game like people with mental health issues.

I was looking at that and thinking damn yall play this game 24/7 for the last 10-15 years so no wonder they are bitter towards every aspect of it. I took a brake during BFA (playing since 2006, in a HC/Mythic top 1000 in the world guild, best in my country) and now i raid and pvp and dont get the fuss, my gf who is a new player is completelly baffled because she is obsessed with the game now. But if you look at any comment section on any WoW video or influencer, you will have these FFX fans in droves who are crying for the game to end.

I asked one guy in the comments on Asmongold video like wtf just enjoy the game and let people enjoy WoW, he responded with "naaah its fun to shit on wow. The point is that even the WoW players that changed to FFX, are being obnoxious af

[KaPe]

That's not true, when they gave the 22 Million users announcement, they specifically said that it is accounts registered, including free trials. source -> https://dengekionline.com/articles/74748/

So, it's the same as it was several years ago, where FF14 reached (5? 10?) million accounts, which was "misread" (accidentally or not) as subscribers. 'Course, I'm pretty sure Blizz mentioned WoW had 100 million accounts created back in (several expansions ago) - and funny how no one "misunderstands" that one.

Fact is, only the companies themselves know the real numbers of subs and neither of them has released this information in years. Maybe FF14 has double the WoW subscribers, maybe it's half. All we have is guesswork - and plenty of people jumping on the bandwagon to "prove" that the game they dislike is dead and their new darling is number one.

[Dracullus]

That kind of mentality is part of why the game is successful. It's all about respecting people's time and the game is designed to reflect that mentality. I have no doubt that WoW devs would share the same opinion on a personal level, but their game tells a very different story.

I remember early BfA people screamed "omg reputations and emissary are so pointless cause I'm exalted already". Ion gave exactly same response - it's fine that you completed some part of game and it no longer gives you upgrades.

Guess how people reacted to it and how long it took for Blizz to reintroduce paragon reps with rng mounts.