[TV] Neil Gaiman's The Sandman

[Egomaniac]

hm and what do you think that opinion says about me???

Unfortunately, the rules of this forum mean that I can't actually tell you what I think your opinion says about you....let's leave it at that.

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I'm talking about cultural impact, she will have none, whether or not she can mechanically play a part is the lesser concern.

It's hilarious that acting ability is the "lesser concern" to you

[Ihavewaffles]

It's hilarious that acting ability is the "lesser concern" to you

Ofc it's not the main concern. If a better actor that was blonde n had blue eyes, should he have the part of black panther n everyone around behaving blindly to it? It would have been weird n not had the impact it had for black people/audience. If you don't respect the viewers, why should they respect you?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm talking about cultural impact, she will have none, whether or not she can mechanically play a part is the lesser concern.

since all these..DC trailers dropped today, the Batman, who cares what race catwoman is? She is a thief, likes cats, interested in batman and...that's it. She hasn't an iconic cultural look. So there it doesn't matter, in the sandman it does matter what Death looks like for the fans because it's iconic, it resonates culturally with goth, metal people, anyone who thinks this new cast choice will resonate with anyone is either severly delusional, outright lying or just don't care.

The idea that catwoman doesn't have an iconic look or doesn't resonate with any cultural looks is incredibly silly, there's a reason every almost every version past the 90's has gone into the black leather look and not the original.

[s_bushido]

If you don't respect the viewers, why should they respect you?

trollolololol

https://twitter.com/neilhimself/stat...57666081808384

But I'm sure the laughable idea of being offended on behalf of the artist who supports these decisions has been covered to death in this thread already.

[Ihavewaffles]

trollolololol

https://twitter.com/neilhimself/stat...57666081808384

But I'm sure the laughable idea of being offended on behalf of the artist who supports these decisions has been covered to death in this thread already.

make sure you check who you were going to reply to, it was DemonHunter18 who complained about lucifer's look.

[s_bushido]

make sure you check who you were going to reply to, it was DemonHunter18 who complained about lucifer's look.

And it was you who brought up the "but wut if Black Panther wuz white, tho?!" line in the context of Christie playing the character. If you don't care, don't make stupid arguments. Simple as.

[Ihavewaffles]

And it was you who brought up the "but wut if Black Panther wuz white, tho?!" line in the context of Christie playing the character. If you don't care, don't make stupid arguments. Simple as.

in the context of? for the 2nd time, i did not complain about gwendolyn but defended it. You are just confused af, we were talking about death, not lucifer.

[Egomaniac]

And it was you who brought up the "but wut if Black Panther wuz white, tho?!" line in the context of Christie playing the character. If you don't care, don't make stupid arguments. Simple as.

Not to defend him... but he was talking about Death being played by a black actress and not Lucifer being portrayed by a female.

I mean, it's a totally different kind of bigotry :P

The other guy was the one complaining about Lucifer

This guy is just the guy that called Neil Gaiman a liar.

[eschatological]

I don't see how you can argue the "cultural significance" of being goth as important seeing as even goths themselves don't express themselves like that their whole lives...cause, hint: it's not an immutable part of their identity.

Source: me. I was a goth. Now I'm a 40 year old lawyer who still listens to the music but puts on suits and no makeup. None of my goth friends still look goth, even if they still listen to the music. It's something you do for awhile, maybe even a long while....but I can honestly say I don't know any goths in their 40s who aren't being paid to look like that (AKA Marilyn Manson).

[Endus]

I don't see how you can argue the "cultural significance" of being goth as important seeing as even goths themselves don't express themselves like that their whole lives...cause, hint: it's not an immutable part of their identity.

Source: me. I was a goth. Now I'm a 40 year old lawyer who still listens to the music but puts on suits and no makeup. None of my goth friends still look goth, even if they still listen to the music. It's something you do for awhile, maybe even a long while....but I can honestly say I don't know any goths in their 40s who aren't being paid to look like that (AKA Marilyn Manson).

Plus, there's no "cultural significance" in goth culture tied to race.

The argument is just an excuse to attack a black actress for being black. That's it. It doesn't go any deeper than that.

[s_bushido]

I don't see how you can argue the "cultural significance" of being goth as important

It's probably what happens when you run out of literally every other reason to be mad argument.

[Ealyssa]

Hey we back to waffles showing that "cultural" racist shit again ? Took a long time

[Egomaniac]

Might as well show the other images:

[Ihavewaffles]

I don't see how you can argue the "cultural significance" of being goth as important seeing as even goths themselves don't express themselves like that their whole lives...cause, hint: it's not an immutable part of their identity.

Source: me. I was a goth. Now I'm a 40 year old lawyer who still listens to the music but puts on suits and no makeup. None of my goth friends still look goth, even if they still listen to the music. It's something you do for awhile, maybe even a long while....but I can honestly say I don't know any goths in their 40s who aren't being paid to look like that (AKA Marilyn Manson).

Are you telling me if this show came out in the 90s and you would honestly not be surprised at the casting choice, it's not what you expected nor does it seem to speak to you?? You would say, "yeah, that looks what I expected!"
I'd find it hard to believe, it's about an iconic look and for all the others on this page that argue about race, so, you might as well argue I'd be happy if Death turned out to look like Pippi Longstockings cuz she's white, as if that is all that matters, Death just happens to have that tone but there is more than just skin to her iconic look, anyone arguing different is being totally dishonest..



You might as well give Dream pink hair, manga hair/look n say, "I totally expected this from reading the comic, nothing wrong with this picture!"
If they had done that, n gaiman had said "I want to appeal to todays youth rather than yesterdays" that would be honest, but no, instead he doubles down n pretends this is what we should have been expecting n starts attacking the fans... that is the reaction of someone flustered caught in a lie..

[Endus]

Are you telling me if this show came out in the 90s and you would honestly not be surprised at the casting choice, it's not what you expected nor does it seem to speak to you?? You would say, "yeah, that looks what I expected!"
I'd find it hard to believe, it's about an iconic look and for all the others on this page that argue about race, so, you might as well argue I'd be happy if Death turned out to look like Pippi Longstockings cuz she's white, as if that is all that matters, Death just happens to have that tone but there is more than just skin to her iconic look, anyone arguing different is being totally dishonest..



You might as well give Dream pink hair, manga hair/look n say, "I totally expected this from reading the comic, nothing wrong with this picture!"
If they had done that, n gaiman had said "I want to appeal to todays youth rather than yesterdays" that would be honest, but no, instead he doubles down n pretends this is what we should have been expecting n starts attacking the fans... that is the reaction of someone flustered caught in a lie..

Except her appearance is the same except for the one point that she's black.

That's your entire issue. That a black actress was cast. You don't care how well she captures the character. You don't care about costuming. You just care that she's black. When the character herself is an ageless, raceless incarnation of a fundamental aspect of the universe. When we know that the Endless' appearance is mutable and often entirely dependent on the viewer. And that, specifically, canonically, dark skin is specifically an option they can present, appearance-wise.

Your position has nothing to do with the canon of the character, it's just that a black actress was cast and that's not white enough for you.

Edit: Again, here's her brother, Dream, on the left; the formatting of the speech bubble should make that clear even out of context:



That's not a different Dream, like what happened when Daniel became the new Dream; we canonically know that the old Morpheus had been Morpheus since the beginning of time, and Daniel was the first death-and-rebirth he went through. So that right there is the exact same incarnation as the one we're more-familiar with, from the same comic, from the same artists. The Endless aren't Caucasian humans. Insisting that they can only be cast as white actors is ignorant of Sandman canon and just pushing racist nonsense.

[Ihavewaffles]

Nobody is saying they can only appear one way, endus, we are talking about their most iconic looks, and it says a lot when death even though comic is about sandman, is the most recognizable n popular character, if you ask anyone, people will say sandman when you show picture of death didi, but dream...people might as well assume he's from the crow, or any number of other comics. Death stands out, that's like showing a picture of spiderman, not many would think he's wolverine.

You just keep repeating yourself, I assume you have the death absolute ed. book as well? want to argue what Death looks like the most in there? No? You can't base your whole arguments on "well! i found this one picture out of a gazillion where she hasn't that iconic look, so i got a point!" like, what??

[Endus]

Nobody is saying they can only appear one way, endus, we are talking about their most iconic looks, and it says a lot when death even though comic is about sandman, is the most recognizable n popular character, if you ask anyone, people will say sandman when you show picture of death didi, but dream...people might as well assume he's from the crow, or any number of other comics. Death stands out, that's like showing a picture of spiderman, not many would think he's wolverine.

You just keep repeating yourself, I assume you have the death absolute ed. book as well? want to argue what Death looks like the most in there? No? You can't base your whole arguments on "well! i found this one picture out of a gazillion where she hasn't that iconic look, so i got a point!" like, what??

And your position on her "iconic look" starts and ends, for you, with the question "is she white enough?"

You don't care about her costuming.
You don't care about the actress' capability to express the character.
You don't care about the writing.

You care whether she's "white enough" for you.

[cyberglum]

Nobody is saying they can only appear one way, endus, we are talking about their most iconic looks, and it says a lot when death even though comic is about sandman, is the most recognizable n popular character, if you ask anyone, people will say sandman when you show picture of death didi, but dream...people might as well assume he's from the crow, or any number of other comics. Death stands out, that's like showing a picture of spiderman, not many would think he's wolverine.

You just keep repeating yourself, I assume you have the death absolute ed. book as well? want to argue what Death looks like the most in there? No? You can't base your whole arguments on "well! i found this one picture out of a gazillion where she hasn't that iconic look, so i got a point!" like, what??

Give up mate, they'll just continue to call you racist and a bigot to make themselves feel better.

[Ihavewaffles]

Give up mate, they'll just continue to call you racist and a bigot to make themselves feel better.

True...it's pointless, I mean these are the same guys who defended last star wars trilogy, it's an ideological battle for them, if something is done good or bad, they'll always claim it's good..

[Endus]

True...it's pointless, I mean these are the same guys who defended last star wars trilogy, it's an ideological battle for them, if something is done good or bad, they'll always claim it's good..

Yeah, we're the ones fighting the "ideological battle", not the ones pushing a race-based agenda. Sure, Jan.