Could the current Sylvanas defeat Knaak's Malfurion?

[Nerovar]

Depowered meaning no longer receiving additional power from the Jailer. In her empowered state, I would imagine a headshot likely wouldn't bother her overmuch - during her encounter at Torghast and Oribos she would've been assailed with ordinance of all types, soaking it all until the Jailer withdraws his support and she drops to the ground.

I mean, she was clearly powered by the Jailer when she fought Saurfang (as evidenced by her using his magic to instantly kill him) and she was still able to be wounded (and permanently scarred) by an elven blade. I don't see why a bullet wouldn't to the same thing.

[darkoms]

Indestructible in the sense that the fall would not kill her, not that it wouldn't harm her - she meant to extinguish herself, so simply getting her body broken to pieces on the ramparts below wouldn't really be aiding in that goal, hence the use of the saronite spikes to ensure she dies (and she does die, she's just resurrected by the Val'kyr). As for her increased durability, take a look at the Mak'gora between her and Saurfang again. The strike she received from Shala'mayne should've done a *lot* more than give her a simple scratch - he was close enough, and the blow severe enough, to ordinarily sunder flesh and bone, leaving her with her brains leaking out of the rent to her face. But she's merely scratched by it, and her reaction to even that indicates that any injury to her person was completely unexpected. Add in during her duel with Bolvar she's struck with a flung portion of Icecrown Citadel and simply recoalesces unharmed by it completely.



The Fel lasers from the Legion dreadnoughts weren't immediately lethal, either - as a PC you can soak them for a time, even more so if you're using protective abilities. Given the relative power of Thrall, him briefly tanking three of them isn't beyond the pale. I agree that an unprotected blow to the head with the ax would probably take him out - I agreed with that several times already. Although empowered Sylvanas and Thrall, just like empowered Sylvanas vs. Saurfang or Bolvar, really isn't a contest given that only one of the people in those duels (Sylvanas) is being fed power by a veritable deity. It's also telling that in her duel with an equally empowered being, namely Tyrande, Sylvanas tries to flee rather than fight until she sees Tyrande losing said divine power.

I know that she died, I say that her soul was not destroyed as she thought. Again, how did you determine that the sword strike was supposed to do so much more? No, really, how? Because it seems to me that if anyone else were in Sylvanas's place, the result would be the same. How many times have we argued with you? Hundred? And always you constantly say some things, and only after I ask you 10 times what you mean and where did you get the information, you tell me that this is just your opinion. Can you please do it right away and save us time?

And again the game mechanics. As a player character you can jump into a lake of fel or rot or lava and in some places you won't even take damage (if I remember correctly, swimming in the Undercity is safe). Although you will take damage, you will not die right away. Of course, this is normal for a mage using a mana shield or a paladin with a divine shield, but not normal for a rogue or hunter without some magical protection. And please don't tell me that if Malfurion jumps into the lava, he can swim there. I'm not sure if the argument about receiving power from a deity means anything. I mean, in that case, anyone who received the power from Sargeras / Elune / Titans could wipe the floor with anyone who did not receive such power. For example, according to your logic, Sylvanas is stronger than Azshara because Sylvanas's dad is stronger than Azshara's dad.
And does Malfurion in the books of Knaak not draw power directly from the planet (that is, in a sense from the Titan)?

[Mehrunes]

Damn, and here I thought the Horde was about more than just "doing damage to the Alliance"

Damn, and here I thought I provided another achievement of hers in the very post you quoted. I guess you (and @Feanoro) can't do more than one sentence at a time. But hey, gotta deflect from the fact that your claim how she's literally the worst Warchief of all time is a pile of baseless BS and that you can't substantiate it for squat with literally anything even when pressed somehow.

[Aucald]

I mean, she was clearly powered by the Jailer when she fought Saurfang (as evidenced by her using his magic to instantly kill him) and she was still able to be wounded (and permanently scarred) by an elven blade. I don't see why a bullet wouldn't to the same thing.

She received a minor scar from a blow that should've split her face open and likely would've removed part of her head and skull under normal circumstances. Unless the bullet that strikes her is fired from some powerful enchanted armament and/or is itself some exotic implement I would say it would probably do minimal to no damage.

[darkoms]

Damn, and here I thought I provided another achievement of hers in the very post you quoted. I guess you (and @Feanoro) can't do more than one sentence at a time. But hey, gotta deflect from the fact that your claim how she's literally the worst Warchief of all time is a pile of baseless BS and that you can't substantiate it for squat with literally anything even when pressed somehow.

I don’t want this to boil down to how good Sylvanas is, but what exactly has she done for the Horde? How did this war benefit the Horde? The only ones to benefit from this are the Jailer and his servants, not the Horde. What benefit would it do to the Horde if Sylvanas captured Eyir in Legion? Perhaps this would greatly strengthen the Forsaken, but it would be Sylvanas's personal army, which could decide that she did not need the Horde (even in the classics, the Forsaken believed that the Horde was just a shield). And I don't understand how the Horde players can be delighted with the leader, who literally said the HORDE NOTHING, and later said that he would not save those who were faithful to her from what was coming (and from what she herself was going to arrange).

[Aucald]

I know that she died, I say that her soul was not destroyed as she thought. Again, how did you determine that the sword strike was supposed to do so much more? No, really, how? Because it seems to me that if anyone else were in Sylvanas's place, the result would be the same. How many times have we argued with you? Hundred? And always you constantly say some things, and only after I ask you 10 times what you mean and where did you get the information, you tell me that this is just your opinion. Can you please do it right away and save us time?

It's pretty much self-evident from the cinematic, really. The very question you're asking is steeped in speculation and opinion regardless, so I'm not so sure why you're now so up in arms about people offering opinions. I guess this is further goalpost shifting? Speaking of saving time, I think I've pretty much wasted all I care to on the subject, you can't really come to a conclusion to an ever-shifting and poorly-defined topic.

And again the game mechanics. As a player character you can jump into a lake of fel or rot or lava and in some places you won't even take damage (if I remember correctly, swimming in the Undercity is safe). Although you will take damage, you will not die right away. Of course, this is normal for a mage using a mana shield or a paladin with a divine shield, but not normal for a rogue or hunter without some magical protection. And please don't tell me that if Malfurion jumps into the lava, he can swim there. I'm not sure if the argument about receiving power from a deity means anything. I mean, in that case, anyone who received the power from Sargeras / Elune / Titans could wipe the floor with anyone who did not receive such power. For example, according to your logic, Sylvanas is stronger than Azshara because Sylvanas's dad is stronger than Azshara's dad. And does Malfurion in the books of Knaak not draw power directly from the planet (that is, in a sense from the Titan)?

There aren't any other sources for the lore-based "power" of the Fel lasers, so feel free to lay down the law if you have any sources to provide. We're so far into the weeds now it's a wonder the conversation even makes sense. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here, and I'm honestly growing more and more sure that you also don't what you're trying to achieve. Your parallels and counterarguments are nonsense when they're not inapplicable.

So yeah, I think we've reached an impasse.

[sighy]

I would agree, save that Sylvanas' MO since BfA has basically been chewing the scenery and low-key demonstrating how untouchable she currently seems to any and all. Sylvanas hangs around playing the PC and the Night Fae forces for some time Anduin had acquired the Sigil - it's not until Tyrande arrives that she finally decides she needs to leave. Either way, it's definitely a marked deviation from her previous behavior.

I don't think there is a high enough sample size for that to be her modus operandi and even then she didn't stick around longer than she needed to. (Saurfang fight is a contrived attrocity that makes no sense) Bolvar fight she just goes in, restrains him with dom magic, wrecks the helmet and leaves. Other than that i don't recall her doing anything save talking in cutscenes to a restrained Anduin up to that point. (There is a distinct moment in the Tyrande cinematic where we hear the horn and people shouting at the 1:40 mark, where we see Sylvanas just try to Batman out of it like "My job is done here", while Tyrande is distracted.)

[darkoms]

It's pretty much self-evident from the cinematic, really. The very question you're asking is steeped in speculation and opinion regardless, so I'm not so sure why you're now so up in arms about people offering opinions. I guess this is further goalpost shifting? Speaking of saving time, I think I've pretty much wasted all I care to on the subject, you can't really come to a conclusion to an ever-shifting and poorly-defined topic.



There aren't any other sources for the lore-based "power" of the Fel lasers, so feel free to lay down the law if you have any sources to provide. We're so far into the weeds now it's a wonder the conversation even makes sense. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here, and I'm honestly growing more and more sure that you also don't what you're trying to achieve. Your parallels and counterarguments are nonsense when they're not inapplicable.

So yeah, I think we've reached an impasse.

I'm not a professional swordsman, of course, but as I said, it seems to me that Saurfang's strike did what it had to do, and if anyone else was there, the result was the same. Because you never separate your personal opinion and assumptions from what you pass off as concrete facts, and I constantly have to ask you for proof.

I mean, we also don't have any other sources for lava jumping, but we're not going to argue that lava jumping is not fatal? And as I told you before, Thrall showed no protection from the fel rays. There is no shield of spirit magic or stone armor, just Thrall.

[Mehrunes]

I don’t want this to boil down to how good Sylvanas is, but what exactly has she done for the Horde? How did this war benefit the Horde? The only ones to benefit from this are the Jailer and his servants, not the Horde. What benefit would it do to the Horde if Sylvanas captured Eyir? Perhaps this would greatly strengthen the Forsaken, but it would be Sylvanas's personal army, which could decide that she did not need the Horde (even in the classics, the Forsaken believed that the Horde was just a shield). And I don't understand how the Horde players can be delighted with the leader, who literally said the HORDE NOTHING, and later said that he would not save those who were faithful to her from what was coming (and from what she herself was going to arrange).

The war straight up ended with the Alliance leaders themselves talking about how the Horde is the only faction that was strong enough to face N'Zoth's armies (and the whole bit with Lich King-less Scourge being an even greater threat that followed her breaking the sky ended up doing less damage to anyone than a fart in the wind). And I already pointed out how no other Warchief gained as many new members as her. So, you know, that's how. She also saved the Horde at Broken Shore, which was acknowledged by the previous Warchief. Those are actual results. And I don't know about you, but I'd say actual results outweigh empty emotional nonsense of "grey lady said mean thing" on the scale of utility to the Horde. Unless you consider the Horde to be so emotionally fragile that Sylvanas uttering those words made it collapse.

Also, given how Sylvanas' plans flip-flopped even between BfA and A Good War and then again between A Good War and BfA, chances are they were also drastically different back in Legion. Given how she'd become outright immortal with Eyir pumping out new Val'kyr for her there'd have been little reason for her to concern herself with some bullshit about the afterlife being unfair, because the very concept of the afterlife would no longer apply to her. So with no practical reason for her to follow the blue man, immortal Forsaken would have been a pretty nice boon for the Horde in pretty much all of its conflicts.

Though I'll give you that even before all this Jailer retcon bonanza immortal Forsaken would have been first and foremost Sylvanas' personal army before being a Horde one. So had she wanted to hole up in Lordaeron like she did for most of Garrosh's war she would have. Then again with Forsaken being immortal she could have taken greater risks.

[Aucald]

I don't think there is a high enough sample size for that to be her modus operandi and even then she didn't stick around longer than she needed to. (Saurfang fight is a contrived attrocity that makes no sense) Bolvar fight she just goes in, restrains him with dom magic, wrecks the helmet and leaves. Other than that i don't recall her doing anything save talking in cutscenes to a restrained Anduin up to that point. (There is a distinct moment in the Tyrande cinematic where we hear the horn and people shouting at the 1:40 mark, where we see Sylvanas just try to Batman out of it like "My job is done here", while Tyrande is distracted.)

The Saurfang fight still counts, it being the first demonstration of her enhanced might thanks to the Jailer's power. Going toe to toe with an Orc several times her original strength, and a peerless warrior to boot, in melee combat demonstrates she's much more than she was. Ditto for Bolvar, with whom she squares off for some time before she ensnares him with dominating chains, even taking a largish chunk of Icecrown to the face and being seemingly unharmed by it. The summoned Maw creature was supposed to be the distraction during her fight with Tyrande, but Tyrande kills it as soon as it steps out of its portal and Tyrande is left to contend with her. They duel it out for quite a while (Sylvanas arrogantly starting with melee before falling back on her specialty) before Tyrande becomes aware that the entire thing was feint for Anduin's part in the heist, but even still Tyrande prevents Sylvanas from ghosting away before fizzling out. The arrival of Ysera seems to seal the deal, though; you can tell Sylvanas feels outmatched and despite her bluster.

[darkoms]

The Saurfang fight still counts, it being the first demonstration of her enhanced might thanks to the Jailer's power. Going toe to toe with an Orc several times her original strength, and a peerless warrior to boot, in melee combat demonstrates she's much more than she was. Ditto for Bolvar, with whom she squares off for some time before she ensnares him with dominating chains, even taking a largish chunk of Icecrown to the face and being seemingly unharmed by it. The summoned Maw creature was supposed to be the distraction during her fight with Tyrande, but Tyrande kills it as soon as it steps out of its portal and Tyrande is left to contend with her. They duel it out for quite a while (Sylvanas arrogantly starting with melee before falling back on her specialty) before Tyrande becomes aware that the entire thing was feint for Anduin's part in the heist, but even still Tyrande prevents Sylvanas from ghosting away before fizzling out. The arrival of Ysera seems to seal the deal, though; you can tell Sylvanas feels outmatched and despite her bluster.

The old orc and the common people are also able to fight on equal terms (and even defeat) the orcs, despite the difference in strength. Excuse me, at what point did she get a lump in the face? As far as I remember, she shot at this block and broke it, and throughout the fight she dodged Bolvar and won largely thanks to speed, dexterity and more powerful magic, and not because she could tank blows with a block or Bolvar's hammer. Um, Tyrande's specialty is also archery, according to your logic, Tyrande also arrogantly entered the melee? Sylvanas was really outclassed until Tyrande's powers began to fade (as I understand it, we still haven't been told why).

[sighy]

The Saurfang fight still counts, it being the first demonstration of her enhanced might thanks to the Jailer's power. Going toe to toe with an Orc several times her original strength, and a peerless warrior to boot, in melee combat demonstrates she's much more than she was. Ditto for Bolvar, with whom she squares off for some time before she ensnares him with dominating chains, even taking a largish chunk of Icecrown to the face and being seemingly unharmed by it. The summoned Maw creature was supposed to be the distraction during her fight with Tyrande, but Tyrande kills it as soon as it steps out of its portal and Tyrande is left to contend with her. They duel it out for quite a while (Sylvanas arrogantly starting with melee before falling back on her specialty) before Tyrande becomes aware that the entire thing was feint for Anduin's part in the heist, but even still Tyrande prevents Sylvanas from ghosting away before fizzling out. The arrival of Ysera seems to seal the deal, though; you can tell Sylvanas feels outmatched and despite her bluster.

I have a lot of problems with the Saurfang fight, because it just doesn't work in context of her previously established powerset, which forces her to hold back to an unreasonable degree, in order to make the fight even a fight.
-Even her weakest undead incarnation could kill him pretty much right away with voice alone, because he is just an old orc
-She was always described as being his intellectual better, when compared
-She is way older and more experienced(thousands of years of warfare against amani, even if we say she is lacking a thousand on Aleria, who fought int he Troll wars)
-She is way faster(as portrayed in war of thorns scaling off Malfurion)
-She is way more nimble, because elf
-Her banshee form was literally shown ripping a man in half during the three sisters comic
-Bow

Spoiler: 

We're supposed to buy into the idea that she doesn't care and has outgrown the Horde... then why was she holding back or gives a rat's ass about Mak'gora rules? Why is she waiting patiently for him to do his spinning nonsense instead of stabbing him in the kidneys or something? ... I will skip the tangent about the logistics of leaving Azeroth's biggest army behind for no reason other than plot needs her to, because it frankly has nothing to do with the discussion.


Bolvar i would argue she mostly spent setting up the restraints, with the "missed" arrows and such. The Tyrande fight i agree that the big monster was the distraction and Sylvanas had to improvise, in order to keep Tyrande busy, while Anduin gets the actual objective done. After that Tyrande does stop her from flying away, but i don't really see Sylvanas feel threatened, until Ysera shows up to back Tyrande up, which is the point she chooses to resume leaving. Notably the few hits Tyrande does get in don't even leave a scratch.

[Nerovar]

She received a minor scar from a blow that should've split her face open and likely would've removed part of her head and skull under normal circumstances.

Seemed more like a glancing blow to me.

[darkoms]

I have a lot of problems with the Saurfang fight, because it just doesn't work in context of her previously established powerset, which forces her to hold back to an unreasonable degree, in order to make the fight even a fight.
-Even her weakest undead incarnation could kill him pretty much right away with voice alone, because he is just an old orc
-She was always described as being his intellectual better, when compared
-She is way older and more experienced(thousands of years of warfare against amani, even if we say she is lacking a thousand on Aleria, who fought int he Troll wars)
-She is way faster(as portrayed in war of thorns scaling off Malfurion)
-She is way more nimble, because elf
-Her banshee form was literally shown ripping a man in half during the three sisters comic
-Bow

Spoiler: 

We're supposed to buy into the idea that she doesn't care and has outgrown the Horde... then why was she holding back or gives a rat's ass about Mak'gora rules? Why is she waiting patiently for him to do his spinning nonsense instead of stabbing him in the kidneys or something? ... I will skip the tangent about the logistics of leaving Azeroth's biggest army behind for no reason other than plot needs her to, because it frankly has nothing to do with the discussion.


Bolvar i would argue she mostly spent setting up the restraints, with the "missed" arrows and such. The Tyrande fight i agree that the big monster was the distraction and Sylvanas had to improvise, in order to keep Tyrande busy, while Anduin gets the actual objective done. After that Tyrande does stop her from flying away, but i don't really see Sylvanas feel threatened, until Ysera shows up to back Tyrande up, which is the point she chooses to resume leaving. Notably the few hits Tyrande does get in don't even leave a scratch.

She literally answers this question herself. She wanted to make Saurfang suffer

- - - Updated - - -

The war straight up ended with the Alliance leaders themselves talking about how the Horde is the only faction that was strong enough to face N'Zoth's armies (and the whole bit with Lich King-less Scourge being an even greater threat that followed her breaking the sky ended up doing less damage to anyone than a fart in the wind). And I already pointed out how no other Warchief gained as many new members as her. So, you know, that's how. She also saved the Horde at Broken Shore, which was acknowledged by the previous Warchief. Those are actual results. And I don't know about you, but I'd say actual results outweigh empty emotional nonsense of "grey lady said mean thing" on the scale of utility to the Horde. Unless you consider the Horde to be so emotionally fragile that Sylvanas uttering those words made it collapse.

Also, given how Sylvanas' plans flip-flopped even between BfA and A Good War and then again between A Good War and BfA, chances are they were also drastically different back in Legion. Given how she'd become outright immortal with Eyir pumping out new Val'kyr for her there'd have been little reason for her to concern herself with some bullshit about the afterlife being unfair, because the very concept of the afterlife would no longer apply to her. So with no practical reason for her to follow the blue man, immortal Forsaken would have been a pretty nice boon for the Horde in pretty much all of its conflicts.

Though I'll give you that even before all this Jailer retcon bonanza immortal Forsaken would have been first and foremost Sylvanas' personal army before being a Horde one. So had she wanted to hole up in Lordaeron like she did for most of Garrosh's war she would have. Then again with Forsaken being immortal she could have taken greater risks.

You mean after Azshara intervened? Because in 8.1, both Mathias Shaw and Nathanos said that there were only a couple of weeks left before the Alliance would win, and so Sylvanas decided to use Derek. During the Battle of Teldrassil, the Horde lost 8 soldiers for each Night Elf killed, and this despite the fact that there was not even a main army of Night Elves there (although this is largely due to the enormous power of Malfurion, but nevertheless it was Sylvanas who decided to attack them on their territory). And after that, the Horde lost one of their capitals. At the same time, the Alliance also recruited new members and I do not remember that Sylvanas herself did anything to get these members to join the Horde. This could happen literally under any leader. Thalyssra took offense at Tyrande and fell in love with Theron, the tauren joined because of their friendship with Bane, the Maghars joined because they owed the Horde and because their world was destroyed. The only thing Sylvanas did was send the hero to free Talanji, and even so much in the annexation of the Horde was played by the fact that Anduin decided that attacking the trolls would convince them not to become allies of the Alliance (the same with the addition of Vulpera). According to your logic, Anduin is the greatest king of the Alliance, because he joined new races, although he did nothing to make them become members of the Alliance. Yes, she saved the Horde. Blowing the horn. I could understand if she outwitted Gul'Dan or showed how brilliant a tactician she is (we are so often told this and never shown), but she just blew her horn and ordered to retreat because Vol'jin could not do it himself. Sorry what? The level of fanaticism among Sylvanas' fans is ridiculous. I don’t think the Horde is emotionally vulnerable, I’m just saying that it didn’t care about the Horde and it’s stupid to call the best leader the one who only cared about her own life (she didn’t care even about the Forsaken). But Sylvanas' fans will justify her even if she spits in their faces and bites off the baby's head in the middle of the day.

Oh yeah, the Immortals Forsaken would be a great addition to the Horde, and it would come in very handy after Odyn (arguably the most arrogant and greedy moron on Azeroth) screamed in rage and went to war against the Horde because Sylvanas stole his main Val'kyre. And all this in the midst of a war with the Legion. Weakening the Valarjar to strengthen the Forsaken is a great plan, as reliable as a Swiss watch.

During Garrosh's War, she was not a Warchief, not the same thing.

[Aucald]

I have a lot of problems with the Saurfang fight, because it just doesn't work in context of her previously established powerset, which forces her to hold back to an unreasonable degree, in order to make the fight even a fight.
-Even her weakest undead incarnation could kill him pretty much right away with voice alone, because he is just an old orc
-She was always described as being his intellectual better, when compared
-She is way older and more experienced(thousands of years of warfare against amani, even if we say she is lacking a thousand on Aleria, who fought int he Troll wars)
-She is way faster(as portrayed in war of thorns scaling off Malfurion)
-She is way more nimble, because elf
-Her banshee form was literally shown ripping a man in half during the three sisters comic
-Bow

We're supposed to buy into the idea that she doesn't care and has outgrown the Horde... then why was she holding back or gives a rat's ass about Mak'gora rules? Why is she waiting patiently for him to do his spinning nonsense instead of stabbing him in the kidneys or something? ... I will skip the tangent about the logistics of leaving Azeroth's biggest army behind for no reason other than plot needs her to, because it frankly has nothing to do with the discussion.

Basically, she's toying with Saurfang, showing off her strength to all assembled as well as the hopelessness of fighting her. She doesn't use her bow because she obviously doesn't consider Saurfang a threat. I don't really know if she's smarter than Saurfang, nor does her history of tactical acumen really seem exemplary e.g. the Amani remain a threat on the doorstep of Quel'Thalas, the Horde incursions during the Second War, and the disastrous failures of the Third War that cost her her life. Saurfang's a lot more than just an "old Orc" as well, pretty much to the same degree that Sylvanas isn't just a shambling corpse. His exploits are long and storied, and his feats when he was leading the Might of Kalimdor are practically legendary (which is why Saurfang was practically a meme back in Classic). Though I would say even a non-empowered Sylvanas would have an edge on Saurfang, that's not really a factor with the duel that happens near the close of BfA - the match was pretty much a done deal before it was fought, with everyone assembled knowing Saurfang had no real way to prevail against Sylvanas as she currently was.

Bolvar i would argue she mostly spent setting up the restraints, with the "missed" arrows and such. The Tyrande fight i agree that the big monster was the distraction and Sylvanas had to improvise, in order to keep Tyrande busy, while Anduin gets the actual objective done. After that Tyrande does stop her from flying away, but i don't really see Sylvanas feel threatened, until Ysera shows up to back Tyrande up, which is the point she chooses to resume leaving. Notably the few hits Tyrande does get in don't even leave a scratch.

Yeah, she was definitely setting Bolvar up for her later trump card, but she still had to deal with his attacks - and she still took a massive piece of Icecrown to the face during Bolvar's Remorseless Winter type attack. She also didn't toy with Bolvar quite as much as she did Saurfang, relying on her ranged specialty from the start and setting up the final gambit well in advance to ensure she wasn't taken out without it in place. Sylvanas is panicking a bit when Tyrande has her prone and is, for some reason, appearing to try to choke her - she only resumes her normal sneering when she sees the Night Warrior power fading on Tyrande's features. I think that fact that Tyrande could match her for both speed and maneuverability gave her a taste of vulnerability she hadn't expected to feel, and it was really only luck on her end that Tyrande's power faded when it did.

I would've liked to see a fight between Ysera and Sylvanas, though.

[sighy]

Basically, she's toying with Saurfang, showing off her strength to all assembled as well as the hopelessness of fighting her. She doesn't use her bow because she obviously doesn't consider Saurfang a threat. I don't really know if she's smarter than Saurfang, nor does her history of tactical acumen really seem exemplary e.g. the Amani remain a threat on the doorstep of Quel'Thalas, the Horde incursions during the Second War, and the disastrous failures of the Third War that cost her her life.

She is described as always "A step ahead", in A Good War off the top of my head. But it's not like Blizzard to state one thing, show something else and then state 2 wildly different things later, whilst showing something else yet again...

Saurfang's a lot more than just an "old Orc" as well, pretty much to the same degree that Sylvanas isn't just a shambling corpse. His exploits are long and storied, and his feats when he was leading the Might of Kalimdor are practically legendary (which is why Saurfang was practically a meme back in Classic).

That statement was more in regards to his ability to feding off against her shout breaking his everything, in that even the basic banshee form from siege of Quel'thalas would still have no issue dealing with him, if she was actually serious.

Sylvanas is panicking a bit when Tyrande has her prone and is, for some reason, appearing to try to choke her - she only resumes her normal sneering when she sees the Night Warrior power fading on Tyrande's features. I think that fact that Tyrande could match her for both speed and maneuverability gave her a taste of vulnerability she hadn't expected to feel, and it was really only luck on her end that Tyrande's power faded when it did.

I would've liked to see a fight between Ysera and Sylvanas, though.

Tyrande fight had left much to be desired. I still believe that Sylvanas could have fought out of it, if she was forced to go ham, but that's mostly speculation on my part since we don't know the way she was empowered or the exact mechanics of it. She could have been just pumped up with tons of anima or she could have even been Jailer's mirror to Night Warrior (most of whom got axed by normal mortals??? I know for sure the Venthyr one did.) I agree that amped up Tyrande was her match, if not outpacing her slightly.

We could have gotten a proper fight between Tyrande and Sylvanas, if they wrote it a bit differently so that both of them had the intent to beat the daylights out of the other, with the "god"given powers they both possessed.

[Aucald]

She is described as always "A step ahead", in A Good War off the top of my head. But it's not like Blizzard to state one thing, show something else and then state 2 wildly different things later, whilst showing something else yet again...

She still would've been a step ahead owing to the massive power differential between her and Saurfang. But there was nothing of tactics as concerns their duel at Orgrimmar - even though Saurfang was able to salvage something of a moral victory from the conflict, he was still going to die in the end. Sylvanas would've been smarter to annihilate him with Death magic without preamble rather than go ahead with the duel and pay perverse lip-service to the Mak'gora. But that, too; has also been Sylvanas' M.O. for some time. More often than not she merely claims to be "one step ahead" as a balm to her own ego, right before her plans blow up in her face. The same basic motif happens at Oribos when she attempts to betray Zovaal.

That statement was more in regards to his ability to feding off against her shout breaking his everything, in that even the basic banshee form from siege of Quel'thalas would still have no issue dealing with him, if she was actually serious.

I don't think a basic Banshee really has that level of power, especially not against a faction leader tier specimen like Saurfang or Garrosh. While they may not wield magic like Jaina or Malfurion, they're exceedingly tough, and could probably shrug off such an assault for a time.

Tyrande fight had left much to be desired. I still believe that Sylvanas could have fought out of it, if she was forced to go ham, but that's mostly speculation on my part since we don't know the way she was empowered or the exact mechanics of it. She could have been just pumped up with tons of anima or she could have even been Jailer's mirror to Night Warrior (most of whom got axed by normal mortals??? I know for sure the Venthyr one did.) I agree that amped up Tyrande was her match, if not outpacing her slightly.

We could have gotten a proper fight between Tyrande and Sylvanas, if they wrote it a bit differently so that both of them had the intent to beat the daylights out of the other, with the "god"given powers they both possessed.

It wasn't a great fight, I agree - I personally wanted to see Tyrande make a stronger showing than she did since the framing of the duel was one steeped in Tyrande's desire for vengeance for her people and her finally getting close to the quarry she'd been hunting since the climax of BfA. Although given Sylvanas' (former) placement as the Jailer's majordomo I didn't think the fight was going to be her end, either; I was more expecting Sylvanas to be in the final raid, the penultimate fight before we got to Zovaal himself. Could've been a spectacular match-up of two beings who were basically serving as avatars of Life and Death, imbued with the power of Elune and Zovaal respectively.

[Wilian]

Did you not read that trash serie Well of Eternity? Malfurion's power grows expotentially if he thinks of his friends or Tyrande. If that's not enough he thinks on them harder and gains more power. Repeat as many times as necessary to overcome odds.

[sighy]

She still would've been a step ahead owing to the massive power differential between her and Saurfang. But there was nothing of tactics as concerns their duel at Orgrimmar - even though Saurfang was able to salvage something of a moral victory from the conflict, he was still going to die in the end. Sylvanas would've been smarter to annihilate him with Death magic without preamble rather than go ahead with the duel and pay perverse lip-service to the Mak'gora. But that, too; has also been Sylvanas' M.O. for some time. More often than not she merely claims to be "one step ahead" as a balm to her own ego, right before her plans blow up in her face. The same basic motif happens at Oribos when she attempts to betray Zovaal.

It was Saurfang himself stating it so there is some credence to that, but in most conflicts besides AQ and WoT he has been between participation awards and advisor. Sylvanas is consistently used to give Aliance characters like Genn cool moments hoping some of her name value will rub off on them. When the writers communicate through dialogue that the character is really smart and then they proceed to show something else it's not intended to look dumb.

I don't think a basic Banshee really has that level of power, especially not against a faction leader tier specimen like Saurfang or Garrosh. While they may not wield magic like Jaina or Malfurion, they're exceedingly tough, and could probably shrug off such an assault for a time.

He is a past his prime orc yb the admition of basically everyone. A champion without question, but he doesn't really have a way to counteract her shouting at him. Even regular banshees can shatter stone and kill people easily so that would be reliant on effectively plot armor.

[Yutilk]

Sylvanas died because some guy just walked up and shot her point blank lol, so I would say they are about even.

lol I'll never forget that. Talk about an uneventful demise.