1. #3361
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    I dont have to read further, you are too ignorant to understand, south africa schools doesnt teach english?
    Wow. Just wow. Racism, discrimination, bigotry, all added to your already stunning level of arrogance and ignorance.

    If you have to resort to this level of ad hominem, it says a lot about not just the weakness of your argument, but about your inability to argue as a whole.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2021-10-19 at 11:27 AM.

  2. #3362
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Wow. Just wow. Racism, discrimination, bigotry, all added to your already stunning level of arrogance and ignorance.
    I have just write down your own location, I dont see the issue? The rest is just somebody getting triggered because lost an argument, pretty pathetic.


    You are just an ignorant that got debunked more than once and now is the turn for the racism card to win an argument sigh

  3. #3363
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    south africa schools doesnt teach english?
    boosting, then rmt'ing the gold is probably his main income, if it's his real location. would also explain why he's so adamantly defending it, despite himself showing clear evidence that it's p2w. you wouldn't see some apple representative fighting for right-to-repair, or an EA rep vouching in court for lootboxes being gambling, would you?
    Last edited by Flaim; 2021-10-19 at 11:40 AM.

  4. #3364
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaim View Post
    boosting, then rmt'ing the gold is probably his main income. would also explain why he's so adamantly defending it, despite himself showing clear evidence that it's p2w. you wouldn't see some apple representative fighting for right-to-repair, or an EA rep vouching in court for lootboxes being gambling, would you?
    ADAMANTLY DEFENDING

    Do you even read people post or you just move your fingers on the keyboard and gg?

    "despite showing evidence" showed up, but you cant understand is like a toddler trying to understand the Casimir Effect while having issue at basic math.
    It is like people bringing up evidences that earth is round and flat earth people yelling nooooooooo covering their ears, quite funny toh.

    ===

    Boosting isnt illegal and isnt against the ToS but I dont need money from boosting, I am fine with my job, I explained in which countries is the contrary and was the case for Gallywix and probably Icecrown Boosting (recently their Bank Char got perma for RMT)

    I have made enough gold to buy even the corrupted ashbringer or the spectral tiger so Blizzard can even decide to ban Boosting tomorrow, which I dont think will ever happen since even Ybarra promotes boosting and boosting is good for selling tokens because p2w is $$$



    But this still doesnt change the fact that WoW is a game where you can Pay2Win almost everything, again ELY5:

    If you spend $$$ to buy Gold and use the Gold to get Gear you will never get and people like you will never too, is *check notes* Pay2Win

    If you spend days farming Gold and use the Gold to get Gear you will never get and people like you will never too, is *check notes* not Pay2Win


    Both are boosting and pay to win doesnt necessary must be "giving money to blizzard and get loot from blizzard" because blizzard isnt this naive to cuck themselves, they already did with the loot boxes in OW and CoD
    Last edited by TBCCLOL; 2021-10-19 at 11:55 AM.

  5. #3365
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    How can you think that you get a better item than EVERYBODY ELSE if it is viable for EVERYBODY? If I buy a only shop item doesnt make it disappear for everybody else, more than 1 people can buy that "item"
    I wrote quite clearly (and you even quoted it in your reply) better than everyone not paying. It's in the definition you quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    and thus making more people having better items than *check notes*

    average players.
    The definition you quoted says that those who pay get better gear than "everyone else" not paying. That isn't just average players, it's all players, including those doing mythic raiding and high level M+ keys.

    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    Not even proper logical thoughts guys wth
    Yeah, it's pretty clear at this point that your inability to see the logic is not my fault.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    You can literally buy boosts with real life money nowadays, if you but it through WoW tokens.
    No one is refuting this. We're refuting that this qualifies tokens as p2w. I am guessing you haven't read the argument though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    So yes, and it's stupid. Not to mention that the world top guilds all tend to buy their new BoE gear every tier with WoW tokens (real life money) too.
    Citation needed. As far as I know none of them have used tokens to buy gold. I suspect your confusion stems from interviews with Method and Complexity Limit where they stated that the gold they spent had an equivalent value of like 40-50K Euro. However they explicitly stated that the gold they used was acquired without resorting to tokens at all, but made from boosting, selling boes and donations and loans from fans.

    I do know that one of the big guilds admitted to buying gold from one of the big goldselling cartels, Gallywix I think. But again this specifically was not tokens.

  6. #3366
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    Nice try kid but if you buy a boost from Echo to do Sylvanas HC and get the Legendary Bow before their Hunter, you got a better item than them and this can work even for non Legendary stuff due to RNG.
    So yes you can EVEN get a better item than people that boost you due to RNG.
    Better than they can possibly get? Because that's what the definition of pay-2-win is, according to your quotation.

    Attempt Failed #1
    This really is like playing chess against a pigeon ^.^

    Also in WoD there was a big drama regarding the BMAH because STARS? a Chinese guild was buying GEAR FROM THE BMAH that were on the loot table of BLACKROCK FOUNDRY when the LAST RAID WAS HIGHMAUL and was the most insane example of PAY2WIN in WoW, that got fixed later because was too much.
    So WoW was pay-2-win before the token released, at a time when the garrison was showering people with gold if they felt like putting in the time?

    With "Average Player" I am talking about you and the rest of people on this forum or on GD or reddit, the main part of the player base that doesnt do Mythic Raiding doesnt get Cutting Edge and is just stuck at 1/10 Myth and 9/10 HC

    People that "CBA doing mythic raiding prog" and prefer spend money to buy tokens and getting boosted to a difficulty they will never do and to have an advantage compared to other players in the same condition.
    So? The definition of pay-2-win, as quoted by you, is that a paying player gets an advantage over everyone who doesn't pay, not just average players. And besides, in terms of buying boosts it isn't hard to make gold in the game especially not with the Covenant dailies at the moment.

    Your ignorance is quite deep because you think that P2W in WoW means "beating Echo or Limit in WF" which is a really dumb idea.
    Pay-2-win means that players who pay get an advantage that can only be matched by another player if they also pay. P2W players should be able to clear raids before the top guilds thanks to the advantages they're buying. That's according to the definition that you posted and then misread.

    How can you think that you get a better item than EVERYBODY ELSE if it is viable for EVERYBODY? If I buy a only shop item doesnt make it disappear for everybody else, more than 1 people can buy that "item" and thus making more people having better items than *check notes*

    average players.
    What notes are you checking? The definition that you quoted in a misguided attempt to back your point clearly says "everyone else."

    Not even proper logical thoughts guys wth
    Your selective rewriting of what people write is getting kinda sad, the person you were replying to said to be p2w a player would have to get a better item than everyone not paying.

    Is this what you call copium because you're not even good at it?

  7. #3367
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    ADAMANTLY DEFENDING

    Do you even read people post or you just move your fingers on the keyboard and gg?

    "despite showing evidence" showed up, but you cant understand is like a toddler trying to understand the Casimir Effect while having issue at basic math.
    It is like people bringing up evidences that earth is round and flat earth people yelling nooooooooo covering their ears, quite funny toh.

    ===

    Boosting isnt illegal and isnt against the ToS but I dont need money from boosting, I am fine with my job, I explained in which countries is the contrary and was the case for Gallywix and probably Icecrown Boosting (recently their Bank Char got perma for RMT)

    I have made enough gold to buy even the corrupted ashbringer or the spectral tiger so Blizzard can even decide to ban Boosting tomorrow, which I dont think will ever happen since even Ybarra promotes boosting and boosting is good for selling tokens because p2w is $$$



    But this still doesnt change the fact that WoW is a game where you can Pay2Win almost everything, again ELY5:

    If you spend $$$ to buy Gold and use the Gold to get Gear you will never get and people like you will never too, is *check notes* Pay2Win

    If you spend days farming Gold and use the Gold to get Gear you will never get and people like you will never too, is *check notes* not Pay2Win


    Both are boosting and pay to win doesnt necessary must be "giving money to blizzard and get loot from blizzard" because blizzard isnt this naive to cuck themselves, they already did with the loot boxes in OW and CoD
    take a step back from the monitor, breath in deeply. then, reread what i wrote with a neutral state of mind. once you've cleansed your brain of your blind rage, you might realize that i'm on your side.

  8. #3368

  9. #3369
    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    based.
    /10char

  10. #3370
    Can we all agree that:

    1) The official definition of P2W is to purchase power not otherwise available in game from the developer.

    2) It’s possible to spend real money and as a direct or indirect result, gain an objective leg up on others via boosts.

    3) Winning is subjective.

    Therefore, WoW does not fit under the technical definition of ‘P2W’ but you can still ‘pay to win’. Do we need a new phrase? I don’t really think either side is wrong, it just depends on the context of the term.
    Last edited by DechCJC; 2021-10-19 at 12:37 PM.

  11. #3371
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Can we all agree that:

    1) The official definition of P2W is to purchase power not otherwise available in game from the developer.

    2) It’s possible to spend real money and gain an objective leg up on others via boosts.

    3) Winning is subjective.

    Therefore, WoW does not fit under the technical definition of ‘P2W’ but you can still ‘pay to win’. Do we need a new phrase? I don’t really think either side is wrong, it just depends on the context of the term.
    Well now we're stuck choosing between the boredom of a reasonable compromise and the tedium of circular arguments. Let's see where it goes.

  12. #3372
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Can we all agree that:

    1) The official definition of P2W is to purchase power not otherwise available in game from the developer.

    2) It’s possible to spend real money and as a direct or indirect result, gain an objective leg up on others via boosts.

    3) Winning is subjective.

    Therefore, WoW does not fit under the technical definition of ‘P2W’ but you can still ‘pay to win’. Do we need a new phrase? I don’t really think either side is wrong, it just depends on the context of the term.
    1) it's power in general, but also progression speed and resources. the latter encompasses incrementation of the resource counter, but also generation speed via generation factors, e.g. "+x% exp/gold gain".

    2) reaching partity or surpassing.

    3) yup

    due to the changes in (1) and (2), wow does fit the bill of p2w.
    somebody from planetside2 coined the phrase of "pay4convenience", as in you're saving the time you'd have required to farm the resources yourself. in wow's case that would entail skipping the gearing of the character up to raid-ready levels, as an example.
    Last edited by Flaim; 2021-10-19 at 12:51 PM.

  13. #3373
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaim View Post
    1) it's power in general, but also progression speed and resources. the latter encompasses incrementation of the resource counter, but also generation speed via generation factors, e.g. "+x% exp/gold gain".

    2) reaching partity or surpassing.

    3) yup

    due to the changes in (1) and (2), wow does fit the bill of p2w.
    somebody from planetside2 coined the phrase of "pay4convenience", as in you're saving the time you'd have required to farm the resources yourself. in wow's case that would entail skipping the gearing of the character up to raid-ready levels, as an example.
    I personally consider it ‘pay to win’ but if u go against what Google gives you as the definition it doesn’t fit the bill. I’m trying to find a middle ground that we can all find reasonable.

  14. #3374
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I personally consider it ‘pay to win’ but if u go against what Google gives you as the definition it doesn’t fit the bill. I’m trying to find a middle ground that we can all find reasonable.
    Back in Vanilla and TBC when people were buying boosts and gold from 3rd parties or geared characters on EBay we were calling it "pay-2-not-play."

  15. #3375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaim View Post
    boosting, then rmt'ing the gold is probably his main income, if it's his real location. would also explain why he's so adamantly defending it, despite himself showing clear evidence that it's p2w. you wouldn't see some apple representative fighting for right-to-repair, or an EA rep vouching in court for lootboxes being gambling, would you?
    But.. you DO see Apple employees fighting for Right-to-repair? And you also DO see some of them get fired for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Back in Vanilla and TBC when people were buying boosts and gold from 3rd parties or geared characters on EBay we were calling it "pay-2-not-play."
    Well, that would be ToS breaking P2W but because it is ToS breaking, it isn't P2W, because Blizzard isn't getting 7 dollars of each transaction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I personally consider it ‘pay to win’ but if u go against what Google gives you as the definition it doesn’t fit the bill. I’m trying to find a middle ground that we can all find reasonable.
    I've always grown up with the term of Pay-2-Win being: "The purchase of unobtainable items, or game advantages sold by the developer", hence I've not taken reaction to things such as 1-2 pets on the store, or all the BoE TCG items but now people are counting trading of special items for gold, Pay-2-Win.

    When the token was datamined, I had actually hoped it was an NPC you used gold to get it from but that idea would not stop people from using 3rd party groups.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  16. #3376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaim View Post
    boosting, then rmt'ing the gold is probably his main income, if it's his real location.
    I'd suggest you do a bit more research before making such a silly assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaim View Post
    would also explain why he's so adamantly defending it, despite himself showing clear evidence that it's p2w.
    What "evidence"? Most "wow is p2w" posts are opinions without any kind of argument to substantiate it. Some posters have presented arguments, but pretty much everything I am saying explains the problems I see with those arguments.

    It seems my real crimes here are having an open mind and applying critical thinking to the question at hand....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Can we all agree that:

    1) The official definition of P2W is to purchase power not otherwise available in game from the developer.

    2) It’s possible to spend real money and as a direct or indirect result, gain an objective leg up on others via boosts.

    3) Winning is subjective.

    Therefore, WoW does not fit under the technical definition of ‘P2W’ but you can still ‘pay to win’. Do we need a new phrase? I don’t really think either side is wrong, it just depends on the context of the term.
    Well put. Agree 100% with everything you say here.

  17. #3377
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    As I said, I sell boost on Retail atm, was in Gallywix and I wintraded in TBC back then.

    The RMT pre token era were 90% PvP carries with the exception in MoP of the CM, the gold selling always existed but there wasn't a true mechanics like now

    Buy Gold > Get Carried > Get Loot

    With the Token, the boosting scenario got stronger, and with Archimonde HC AOTC Mount the trick was done, people were payin 50k for the carry and thus the token kept pumping over and over and with the CM too.

    Surely people don't buy gold from RMT sites on retail like pre token, but since bots are rampart like uterine cancer in these days the retail gold selling market is still florid.
    On the otherside Classic and TBCC gold selling is pumping and the GDKP runs meta makes goldselling relevant.

    Plus people flip Retail gold for TBCC gold and thus making Blizzard aware that people buy Retail Tokens to exchange gold on retail for gold on TBC so giving them even more money, and making the Retail Token something that influence even TBCC.

    I have no problem beside people like you and copium-man thinking that Tokens aren't Pay2Win which is laughable.


    I and others, have explained more than once why, but if you don't wanna understand is not my problem, I even brought different type of P2W to fill your ignorance regarding the "exact" definition of P2W


    TL;Dr

    Token is p2w
    Blizzard introduced the Token to replace goldsellers and make money
    Co-president is doing selling runs


    Stop inahle copium
    thank you, i dont know why they are so resistant to call it pay to win when it so obvious it is

    haha not pay to win just made my character and boosted it to 60 haha not pay to win

    haha patch just came out and i bought 5 tokens to get raid boe drops before ever doing the raid haha not pay to win

    haha i just bought tokens to get carried to glad title haha it was my skill i didn't pay for it!

    hilarious

  18. #3378
    Yes it is, stop asking. If you can pay real money to get shit done faster regardless of the system implemented it is pay 2 win.
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  19. #3379
    I don't think that it's fair for people to demand that P2W to be removed. A lot of us who buy boosts do it in order to PvP casually without getting our asses handed to us. Since we don't have enough time if we can't pay extra to be able to play the game we'll just unsubscribe and then nobody wins.

  20. #3380
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Can we all agree that:

    1) The official definition of P2W is to purchase power not otherwise available in game from the developer.
    Nope, otherwise it would be like some P2W MMO i play where they put an item with an insane ingame price but very affordable if you use IRL money, suddenly they can reap the benefit of real money transaction while still retaining the title of not P2W

    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Can we all agree that:

    3) Winning is subjective.
    If "winning" is subjective then no game will ever be P2W.

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