Was Sylvanas a good warchief?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I’d say both vol’jin and doomhammer are worse. Vol’jin for doing nothing and doomhammer for throwing away victory to chase some warlocks.

Black hand founded the horde.

Thrall rebuilt it after doom hammers blunder.

Garrosh made it into a actual threat and stopped the alliance from wiping the floor with them in cata.

Sylvanas atleast got it new allies and kept up its tech in the azerite arms race.

[Super Dickmann]

@VladlTutushkin

We know that the future sees her and Arthas quipping while handing out daily quests, friendship and optimism restored.

Now wait for how the incoming Sylvanas book makes everything even more convoluted.

With how Blizzard are pushing it back I think they too are scared about biting that particular bullet. Not that I'd worry if I were them, this is a story that at the moment is so slapdash that I'm at a loss at how you could possibly fuck it up further. Any bit of coherence would be a godsend.

Now give me a second to fetch some coffee while the monkey's paw curls another finger.

@Lorgar Aurelian

Both Doomhammer and Sylvanas lost their respective fights due to a personal error. The difference is Doomhammer's was as a result of taking every precaution in terms of surrounding Gul'dan, someone he did need for his magic to not lose the war earlier on and he had built a network of allies and weapons in the Amani and dragons earlier and his decision to go after Gul'dan was in a position where while he might have taken Lordaeron it's unclear if he could have held it long-term. We can argue on whether he should've just brought the Draenor clans over earlier or killed Gul'dan after he'd made the ogre magi, etc. but he went very far with a bad hand and in terms of intent he wanted to benefit the orcs.

Sylvanas' blunder is bigger because, aside from her intent being malevolent, she too is the engineer of her loss. But it isn't because of defecting troops or anything but purely her being unable to keep her temper 1v1. She isn't compelled by a code of honor like Orgrim to clean up her mistake and nothing obligated her to fight Saurfang except her own hangups about betrayal and her anger over trusting him. Her yelling about how everyone on the walls is a big poopoo head isn't Orgrim's situation where he may have lost anyway and was simply fixing his mistake, it's her being in a position where much of everything is stacked in her favour and cocking it up entirely on the back of her complexes about trust.

[Ielenia]

Well compared to Voljin who gave the player a smiley face sticker for building our lego fortress and then died to Felguard #54354, I'd say she wasn't the worst.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: Sylvanas' entire goal as warchief was to wage wars with the intention of causing as many deaths as possible on both sides.

At least Vol'jin did not intend to murder friends and foes alike. Hell, if you really want to go that way, the Horde didn't start or even lose any wars during his short reign.

[Ardenaso]

I'd say she's better than Garrosh, she didn't give the Darkspears the Garithos treatment unlike him; and when Baine betrayed her she didn't drag the entire Tauren race/species with him

[Irian]

lmao no. Both factions failed entirely during Legion, and then the moment BfA turned around she put her completely mystifying 4D chess game in motion without informing anyone, even her closest confidants, what her end goal was. She started a pointless war that nobody benefited from and accomplished roughly fuck all in the process except to feed her master more souls, you know, the same master who "betrayed" her immediately. I put "betrayed" in quotations because I don't think Zovaal ever gave anyone any impression that any of his goals were noble or good-intentioned, his entire campaign has revolved around enslaving and weaponizing souls against their will and he's doing exactly that.

I'd say she's better than Garrosh, she didn't give the Darkspears the Garithos treatment unlike him; and when Baine betrayed her she didn't drag the entire Tauren race/species with him

An actually understandable trait would be way too much to ask of this character. Garrosh was racist because he had little to no experience with the races of Azeroth and wanted the best for the orcs, which he felt was not a life in Durotar, one of the most barren areas on Kalimdor.

Yeah he's a giant douche but he is a douche with a sensible and understandable perspective, coming from a planet that's actively trying to kill you and the only people you can ever trust are fellow orcs.

[Hyeonh]

I'd put her as one of the worst warchiefs the horde has had. What pushes her in the spot would be the extremely poor decisions that would've lead to horde falling apart, again. Especially starting a war right after the legion campaign that exhausted every faction resources be it horde, alliance, or others.

[mysticx]

She was the very best. If she wasn't so falsley villain batted the people of the Horde would have errected her a statue in Orgrimmar for her great deeds. All hail Sylvanas. May she forever save the Horde.

Ok, but she *was* villain-batted, she did pull the Horde into a needless war just to feed souls to the maw (As it later turns out), and when she got all she could out of it, she left.

What does that make the version of Sylvanas we got? (Instead of the "What if she didn't do all the bad stuff she did"-version)

[DocDestructo]

Was she a good faction leader? One of the best. Was she a good Warchief? No. I like the character of Sylvanas, which is why I know the Warchief position was a HORRIBLE fit on her. She is at her best operating out of the spotlight, and while she was able to put her new station to some use for the Horde's benefit, it was never in the way a Warchief really should do it. She only ever told the Horde what they needed to do for her, she never made them understand as to WHY they should be so eager to.

[DatToffer]

Well, she took down one enemy capital, so that's good for a warchief.

She also brought new allies to the Horde and rallied everyone... Against her. So uh... Good ?

[Saltysquidoon]

Start a war
Lose a war
Just as keikaku
"Serve"
Wait, no. Not as keikaku

11/10 character, she truly is a galaxybrain megamind. If I was Activision I would pay real human money for writing this good again.

[Zuben]

Obviously not as nothing she did was aimed for the Horde's benefit. At the time of BFA I felt her way was better than Saurfang's, as the initial plan went out the window when the latter failed to kill Malfurion, then, as we were locked in an all-out war, it felt like we had to see this thing through or perish. That things ended the way they did wasn't in any way an organic conclusion to the plot, but the shitty af writing team pushing their way through our disbelief. It's canon lore nonetheless, so Sylvanas was in the wrong all the way.

[Raisei]

You must be joking... her goal was/is killing everyone on the planet, Horde included. She specifically sank a boat with the Horde's greatest champions and demanded that Azshara kill them. Helped free an Old God... Her entire motivation was always self-serving, any small benefits to the Horde were accidents.

In what opposite dimension are these the actions of a good warchief?

[Soon-TM]

Seeing as how her agenda was to throw everyone in the Horde (or otherwise) to the Maw to feed her bald sugar daddy... No, she wasn't, not in the slightest. She inherited a damn fine superpower, that could stand toe to toe with the Alliance, and left behind a broken, pathetic excuse for a council whose main concerns seem to be the Alliance's wellbeing and opinions first and foremost.

[Mehrunes]

With how Blizzard are pushing it back I think they too are scared about biting that particular bullet. Not that I'd worry if I were them, this is a story that at the moment is so slapdash that I'm at a loss at how you could possibly fuck it up further. Any bit of coherence would be a godsend.

It's Blizzard, they can obviously fuck it up. Actually, at this point I'd say they have to. And not just in the meaning that they can't stop themselves from fucking any story up. It's just that releasing the story explaining the actions of pre-soul merge Sylvanas after the soul merge has already happened is essentially worthless from a narrative perspective.

So, off the top of my head: the book will reveal that betraying the Janitor then and there was all a part of her master plan all along and she was only playing him, because she knew that if he turned out to be the Satan he never hid he was, then he'd restore her soul in order to torment her as punishment for her turning on him. But lo and behold, that will only turn her into super-Sylvanas that will bring peace to Shadowlands by getting rid of both the Arbiter system (which I guess is already fucked beyond redemption at this point) and the Janitor.

[Lolites]

Thrall and Vol'jin were the only ones with clean hands in this particular regard.

to be fair, voljin have clear hands bcs he did ...nothing
he get to be warchief at end of pandaria, did nothing in wod and died at begining of legion, so tbh only thing he did as warchief was dying and naming successor, and even that he was manipulated into

[sighy]

It's Blizzard, they can obviously fuck it up. Actually, at this point I'd say they have to. And not just in the meaning that they can't stop themselves from fucking any story up. It's just that releasing the story explaining the actions of pre-soul merge Sylvanas after the soul merge has already happened is essentially worthless from a narrative perspective.

So, off the top of my head: the book will reveal that betraying the Janitor then and there was all a part of her master plan all along and she was only playing him, because she knew that if he turned out to be the Satan he never hid he was, then he'd restore her soul in order to torment her as punishment for her turning on him. But lo and behold, that will only turn her into super-Sylvanas that will bring peace to Shadowlands by getting rid of both the Arbiter system (which I guess is already fucked beyond redemption at this point) and the Janitor.

Trying to make a consistent story out of BfA-SL, with her previous characterisation is gonna be a hell of a challenge xD

Just like the end of 9.1.0 cinematic... That information would have been relevant BEFORE THE BLOODY PATCH! What use is it to establish a conflict, after it's been resolved? That's like telling a joke, where yous tart witht eh punchline and then try to explain it when nobody is laughing... Actually that would explain a lot

[Lorgar Aurelian]

[MENTION=1453132]

@Lorgar Aurelian

Both Doomhammer and Sylvanas lost their respective fights due to a personal error. The difference is Doomhammer's was as a result of taking every precaution in terms of surrounding Gul'dan, someone he did need for his magic to not lose the war earlier on and he had built a network of allies and weapons in the Amani and dragons earlier and his decision to go after Gul'dan was in a position where while he might have taken Lordaeron it's unclear if he could have held it long-term. We can argue on whether he should've just brought the Draenor clans over earlier or killed Gul'dan after he'd made the ogre magi, etc. but he went very far with a bad hand and in terms of intent he wanted to benefit the orcs.

Sylvanas' blunder is bigger because, aside from her intent being malevolent, she too is the engineer of her loss. But it isn't because of defecting troops or anything but purely her being unable to keep her temper 1v1. She isn't compelled by a code of honor like Orgrim to clean up her mistake and nothing obligated her to fight Saurfang except her own hangups about betrayal and her anger over trusting him. Her yelling about how everyone on the walls is a big poopoo head isn't Orgrim's situation where he may have lost anyway and was simply fixing his mistake, it's her being in a position where much of everything is stacked in her favour and cocking it up entirely on the back of her complexes about trust.

Y they both screwed them selfs but I’d still say doomhammer was worse as him sticking to his dumb honor dismantled the horde and put them at the mercy of the alliance wheee sylvanas only screwed he self over and the horde was fine without her as the alliance couldn’t push for total victory.

[Maljinwo]

Well compared to Voljin who gave the player a smiley face sticker for building our lego fortress and then died to Felguard #54354, I'd say she wasn't the worst.

Vol'jin at least got the night elves to leave aszhara for good as they recognized the Horde as owner of that territory.
So technically he did more for the Horde than the zombie

Honestly, his reign as warchief was too short to be able to considier him as good or bad. That's entirely on the writing team when they decided to kill him off for reasons

[geco]

Vol'jin at least got the night elves to leave aszhara for good as they recognized the Horde as owner of that territory.
So technically he did more for the Horde than the zombie

Honestly, his reign as warchief was too short to be able to considier him as good or bad. That's entirely on the writing team when they decided to kill him off for reasons

And Sylvanas surely lost that.

Sylvanas is the best Racial boss in the Horde. But she as a war chief she is between bad and worst. (Which makes her hate BFA and new writers even more. Because she was a good leader)

Sylvanas is the misspelled version of Garrosh. Unlike him, all of Sylvanas's achievements are by force of Plot or by magic of the jailer. No achievement of hers is hers. Besides that the Horde now only continues to exist because of the magic of the Script. Otherwise the Horde would have to be much more destroyed.

Y they both screwed them selfs but I’d still say doomhammer was worse as him sticking to his dumb honor dismantled the horde and put them at the mercy of the alliance wheee sylvanas only screwed he self over and the horde was fine without her as the alliance couldn’t push for total victory.

They can't by Plot. The Kaldorei army might still have preyed on the Horde. With Tyrande, Malfurion and Maiev. But by Plote they had to disappear into this piece of plot.
I'm not saying they were going to destroy the entire Horde. But they could take a city out of him and do a lot of damage.

So for me you have to consider that Sylvanas left the Horde between a rock and a hard place. But the script saved them.

[Mehrunes]

Vol'jin at least got the night elves to leave aszhara for good as they recognized the Horde as owner of that territory.
So technically he did more for the Horde than the zombie

That wasn't something Vol'jin got though. Tyrande came up with after a discussion with Varian, before Garrosh was even dethroned.

Goddamnit, I forgot that was going to be a thing...
And written by Golden... Yikes

I, in turn, forgot the bit about Golden... I concur your yikes. BtS was already bad enough in that regard.