Was Sylvanas a good warchief?

[darkoms]

If you want to go by this standard, she is still in first place tied with Thrall, because she directly recruited the blood elves to the Horde during TBC, and directly wanted and formally inducted the Zandalari into the Horde.

It seems like you don't want an actual discussion, and are just looking to have your opinion validated though lol. This thread is a mess.

She never recruited Blood Elves into the Horde, people keep saying this nonsense as if it were canon. The Chronicle mentions that she convinced the leaders of the Horde to take them, but they also negotiated directly with Thrall.


Kael'thas was also loosely (if not earnestly) allied with Thrall's Horde for a brief period, if only as Quel'Thalas' sovereign. Kael was kept up to date on the state of negotiations by Rommath, and it is strongly implied in Blood of the Highborne that Kael himself was the source of information mentioned in one of Lor'themar's letters that confirmed the presence of uncorrupted orcs still on Outland ; Kael's regent used this as a bargaining chip with the Horde.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Let...7themar_Theron

It seems like when I tell people how the lore really was, they start accusing me of being a hater. I love the Warcraft community.

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If you took deus ex machinas out of equation the Alliance would have been destroyed four times at Lordaeron alone.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Are you serious now? The Bfa did their best to keep the Horde alive.
1) The War of the Thorns was a huge disgrace. I can believe that Sylvanas and Saurfang are much better tactics than Malfurion, because he was always a super weapon, not a commander, but what is the stupid excuse for Tyrande's absence? Did the elves in Stormwind need her? Seriously? Where are they absolutely safe?
2) The War of Thorns was able to continue at all because Saurfang accidentally found a cave that Malfurion did not know about. The same Malfurion who lived on this land for 10 thousand years and literally knows how to talk to trees to learn information (which he did when he wanted to find Maiev).
3) The Night Elves seem to have forgotten that they have Jarod (you know, actually a smart tactician who was good enough to keep up with Archimonde in the War of the Ancients)
4) The Vindicaar was not used because it did not fit into the current lore
5) While Jaina's appearance in the Battle of Lordaeron was indeed a deus ex machine, the fact that the Alliance leaders were totally shocked that Sylvanas USED BLIGHT counterbalances this
6) As soon as the Alliance victory was a few weeks away, Azshara intervened
7)The Earthen Ring and Cenarion Circle do not react in any way to this war and to the fact that the leader of the Cenarion Circle was almost killed, while the planet dies because of the sword of Sargeras. Like the wild gods and dragons, they absolutely did not react to the burning of the world tree (and in the quest for obtaining the essence of green dragons it is mentioned that this caused harm to the planet). And if there were too few dragons left, then some Malorne could easily kill Sylvanas for her crimes.
8)No consequences for Sylvanas for her actions in the Legion. The Val'lkyrs mention that she will pay for what she tried to do, but that's about it. Odyn does NOTHING against the Horde, although it is very easy to disperse him. The whole world is literally adjusting so that the Horde can exist.
9) Malfurion and Tyrande, both powerful enough characters to defeat Sylvanas, did not even join the campaign against Orgrimmar, which is why Sylvanas simply killed Saurfang and flew away

But yes, the damned Blizzard loves the Alliance too much to let him fail.

[Ardenaso]

personal biases aside, you can't deny that Sylvanas united the Horde and made them one body, one mind, and one soul... before Varok's betrayal that is;

she managed to sweep around the Night Elf territory and severely destroyed the Night Elves' land and population... only that she ignored Azuremyst, Felwood, Winterspring, and Hyjal; lshe also successfully to prevent the Alliance from taking Lordaeron capital and simply made a scorched earth of it when they thought they won

[Myradin]

personal biases aside, you can't deny that Sylvanas united the Horde and made them one body, one mind, and one soul... before Varok's betrayal that is;

So she didn't then. And uniting as ones, and unknowing minions of super satan, isn't exactly what one would consider a good leader.

she managed to sweep around the Night Elf territory and severely destroyed the Night Elves' land and population... only that she ignored Azuremyst, Felwood, Winterspring, and Hyjal;

And then lost these territories within the same expansion.

lshe also successfully to prevent the Alliance from taking Lordaeron capital and simply made a scorched earth of it when they thought they won

I guess she did succeed in that at the least.


I'm not meaning to sound biased, but isn't dedicating your faction to an evil overlord that wants to destroy the universe put her in the same boat as the evil war chiefs of the old horde?

[Feanoro]

I'm not meaning to sound biased, but isn't dedicating your faction to an evil overlord that wants to destroy the universe put her in the same boat as the evil war chiefs of the old horde?

What's biased about stating facts? The Janitor wants to destroy the universe, the Lich Queen happily followed him and led the Mindless Minions, sorry, Horde to slaughter and be slaughtered. The Legion wanted to destroy all life, Blackhand and Gul'Dan happily followed them and led the Mindless Minions to slaughter and be slaughtered.

It's funny how just like the waifu, Lich Queen fans pretend they support the Horde, when all she did was try to destroy it. If they were Horde fans, she would be viewed as a vile betrayer who wanted to enslave the Horde to the Janitor.

[darkoms]

What's biased about stating facts? The Janitor wants to destroy the universe, the Lich Queen happily followed him and led the Mindless Minions, sorry, Horde to slaughter and be slaughtered. The Legion wanted to destroy all life, Blackhand and Gul'Dan happily followed them and led the Mindless Minions to slaughter and be slaughtered.

It's funny how just like the waifu, Lich Queen fans pretend they support the Horde, when all she did was try to destroy it. If they were Horde fans, she would be viewed as a vile betrayer who wanted to enslave the Horde to the Janitor.

Fun fact, on the official forums, you can see that Sylvanas fans are almost always the Forsaken and Blood Elves and they say that she is a true leader like the chad Blackhand, not virgin Thrall and argue with orc, troll and tauren players about what the real Horde is.

[geco]

Outside of some huge magical event like the mana bomb the night elfs would be able to do next to nothing to any horde city on there own. It took both the alliance and the horde to siege org when garrosh only had orc support just the night elfs alone would get nowhere.

To orgrimmar. But Thunder Bluff needed the alliance and the Horde working together to defend itself.
And by the way magical events. That is precisely what Malfurion and Tyrande are.

And if they had to continue at war with the Alliance those reinforcements of the Horde could not return.
In short, the Horde is still alive because Anduin is useless. Not because of Sylvanas' achievement. If it were up to her there would be no more Horde.

PS: And after teldrassil. Well they just need some catapults and can destroy any capital.

personal biases aside, you can't deny that Sylvanas united the Horde and made them one body, one mind, and one soul... before Varok's betrayal that is;

she managed to sweep around the Night Elf territory and severely destroyed the Night Elves' land and population... only that she ignored Azuremyst, Felwood, Winterspring, and Hyjal; lshe also successfully to prevent the Alliance from taking Lordaeron capital and simply made a scorched earth of it when they thought they won

Did She really do it? I mean,She achieve it only by script and even by script now they want to tell us that no one agreed with Sylvanas.

That is, she managed to make the Horde's professional army have a problem against Rokys Kaldorei and to have magic catapults that can suddenly fly higher than a mountain and set fire to living wood in seconds. Those of the Vietnam War must die of envy.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

To orgrimmar. But Thunder Bluff needed the alliance and the Horde working together to defend itself.
And by the way magical events. That is precisely what Malfurion and Tyrande are.

And if they had to continue at war with the Alliance those reinforcements of the Horde could not return.
In short, the Horde is still alive because Anduin is useless. Not because of Sylvanas' achievement. If it were up to her there would be no more Horde.

PS: And after teldrassil. Well they just need some catapults and can destroy any capital.

Thunder bluff is surrounded by open planes and land locked the night elf's would have a absolutely abysmal approach on there own and the horde could likely defend it easily. and unless i'm forgetting a attack on thunderbluff the alliance and horde have never teamed up to defend it unless you want to count he cow civil war.

as to magical events Malf might be able to bust there defenses if were going pre BFA but Tyrande hasn't shown case any such solo power even after becoming the night warrior.

there's also no reason for the rest of the alliance to keep the war going when only the night elf's want to.

catapults also can't melt steel beams.

[geco]

Thunder bluff is surrounded by open planes and land locked the night elf's would have a absolutely abysmal approach on there own and the horde could likely defend it easily. and unless i'm forgetting a attack on thunderbluff the alliance and horde have never teamed up to defend it unless you want to count he cow civil war.

as to magical events Malf might be able to bust there defenses if were going pre BFA but Tyrande hasn't shown case any such solo power even after becoming the night warrior.

there's also no reason for the rest of the alliance to keep the war going when only the night elf's want to.

catapults also can't melt steel beams.

1 Under the logic of BFA they can. The catapults can be fired across the mountain and set fire to the entire peak of thunder.

2 Tyrande can destroy army in W3 if she has a closed spot of terrain and there is.

3 There really is no reason beyond Plotanium for the Alliance to stop fighting. It really is only Anduin and Jaina who want peace. Not even their own peoples want peace. There is even a dialogue from soldiers from the town of Jaina that this kind of "peace" was the reason they left the Alliance.

4 We keep forgetting about Vendicar and all those things that were ignored for the sake of the Plot. And all the list that darkoms said

[Triceron]

Well compared to Voljin who gave the player a smiley face sticker for building our lego fortress and then died to Felguard #54354, I'd say she wasn't the worst.

This is extremely understated.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

1 Under the logic of BFA they can. The catapults can be fired across the mountain and set fire to the entire peak of thunder.

2 Tyrande can destroy army in W3 if she has a closed spot of terrain and there is.

3 There really is no reason beyond Plotanium for the Alliance to stop fighting. It really is only Anduin and Jaina who want peace. Not even their own peoples want peace. There is even a dialogue from soldiers from the town of Jaina that this kind of "peace" was the reason they left the Alliance.

4 We keep forgetting about Vendicar and all those things that were ignored for the sake of the Plot. And all the list that darkoms said

In theory catapults might have the range to hit thunderbluff but they'd need to get them up the onto the mountains which they likely wouldn't be able to do without them being destroyed.

W3 gameplay isn't lore.

all of the alliance leaders but the night elf's agreed peace was the best choice, what soldier's think doesn't matter as only the gnomes are a democracy.

The night elf's don't own have the vindicator.

[Triceron]

So she didn't then. And uniting as ones, and unknowing minions of super satan, isn't exactly what one would consider a good leader.

Yet the standard for a good leader is always subjective, in terms of 'good'.

In terms of effectiveness, she was a better leader than Vol'jin. So even if you don't consider what she did as being good, comparatively it's still better than what Vol'jin did for the Horde. And I say this as someone who hates Sylvanas having been written into the role of Warchief, and would rather have had the writers spend time on actually fleshing out Vol'jin's role rather than literally cutting him out of an entire expansion then killing him off as soon as we return from Draenor.

I'm not meaning to sound biased, but isn't dedicating your faction to an evil overlord that wants to destroy the universe put her in the same boat as the evil war chiefs of the old horde?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. When your faction motto is 'Blood and Honor' it doesn't really make it any less 'old horde' even when Thrall was a part of it. It was just a less demonic-aligned one, but nonetheless one that was meant to abide to the old traditions, including keeping stupid shit like the Mak'gora. Mak'gora has literally lead to nothing but the senseless death of notable characters, and never actually worked for the betterment of the Horde, all while Thrall is the one who decided that it should be kept because of maintaining old Horde values.

If we want to view Horde as civilized and not prone to evil overlords, then honestly it needs to abandon the whole 'might is right' values for leadership. And that's pretty much what the Horde Council is meant to be now. It should have been crystal clear that a singular Warchief role makes the Horde prone to reverting back into the 'old ways'.

[Jastall]

to be fair, voljin have clear hands bcs he did ...nothing
he get to be warchief at end of pandaria, did nothing in wod and died at begining of legion, so tbh only thing he did as warchief was dying and naming successor, and even that he was manipulated into

Sure, no question about it, but if you discount Vol'jin then that leaves literally one Warchief that didn't help the case of some apocalyptic force or another, over more than 30 years both in and out of game. It's pretty damning in and of itself.

[geco]

In theory catapults might have the range to hit thunderbluff but they'd need to get them up the onto the mountains which they likely wouldn't be able to do without them being destroyed.

W3 gameplay isn't lore.

all of the alliance leaders but the night elf's agreed peace was the best choice, what soldier's think doesn't matter as only the gnomes are a democracy.

The night elf's don't own have the vindicator.

The catapults can fire without going up the mountain. They can shoot from the ground to a mountain on an island. Hitting Thunder Bluff would be easy.

And all the rest are not Sylvanas achievements. They are things that they forced in the script to make the Horde not be completely despondent. As for the topic Sylvanas left the Horde in nothingness and the Script literally came to save them.

PS: leaders of the Alliance did not agree on anything. They never show us that they negotiate and we are shown that many do not agree with Anduin.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The catapults can fire without going up the mountain. They can shoot from the ground to a mountain on an island. Hitting Thunder Bluff would be easy.

And all the rest are not Sylvanas achievements. They are things that they forced in the script to make the Horde not be completely despondent. As for the topic Sylvanas left the Horde in nothingness and the Script literally came to save them.

PS: leaders of the Alliance did not agree on anything. They never show us that they negotiate and we are shown that many do not agree with Anduin.

We know the catapults can shoot a distance but we have no clue how high up they can hit, they would also need to get them into the planes around the bluff which would make them an easy target to destroy.

there was also a quest with all the alliance leaders gathered and you could ask hem what they thought about the war only the night elf's and maybe genn wanted for it to keep going.

[geco]

We know the catapults can shoot a distance but we have no clue how high up they can hit, they would also need to get them into the planes around the bluff which would make them an easy target to destroy.

there was also a quest with all the alliance leaders gathered and you could ask hem what they thought about the war only the night elf's and maybe genn wanted for it to keep going.

We know from the burning of Teldrassil that they can shoot higher than a mountain and two regions away.

But neither says anything about abandoning the Kaldorei.
The dwarves also wanted to continue the war.
I would have to go find that mission anyway.

[Syegfryed]

If this time the Alliance isn't deus ex machinad into a position of loosing after loosing 3 ships and would be allowed to use the weapons they have in their arsenal like a certain spaceship... and a certain flying ship with magic cannons..., then the Horde would have been dust in the wind already.

They only reason the Horde isn't dust is because they are a player faction and thus cannot be destroyed without enraging halve the playerbase. Hence the Alliance is forced to forgive and forget all those genocides yet again...

You think the horde don't have flying ship with cannons? the goblins are the pioneers of zeppelins and flying warships

you talk like only the alliance was "nerfed" when the horde didn't use half of his potential and almost nothing that they brought over from the iron horde.

the alliance never had the power to destroy or dismantle the horde, this is a nonsense headcanon from alliance players, they couldn't in MOP they couldn't now.

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but i take back, vol'jin was the worst warchief, it was because of him that that the horde didn't won against the alliance back in mop because his shit revolution and he was the one who point sylvanas to be leader, he was the start of the downfall.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

We know from the burning of Teldrassil that they can shoot higher than a mountain and two regions away.

But neither says anything about abandoning the Kaldorei.
The dwarves also wanted to continue the war.
I would have to go find that mission anyway.

There are no mountain's at teldrassil the tree goes all the way to the water.

The night elf's at the point has already gone off on there own without support from the rest of the alliance other then the wolfs. There's no reason to think the other alliance members would go against there own interest to support them when they didn't during the rest of the war.

The dwarf's or atleast moria I believe say they want the war to end. and that it's pointless.

[Triceron]

the alliance never had the power to destroy or dismantle the horde

*Cough* Vindicaar *Cough*


But on a slightly more serious note, the Alliance wouldn't ever really want to dismantle the Horde, lest they be stuck with the WC2 situation of a bunch of scattered Horde races finding some young upstart who unites and leads them back into 'former glory'. The best they could ever achieve is putting in a puppet leader and manipulating them from the inside. Exactly what the Jailer did with Vol'jin appointing Sylvanas as Warchief.

The alternative is literal genocide, and that didn't even work out for the Horde destroying the Draenei since they ended up coming back into the story in full force and part of 'the enemy'.

[Arikara]

I don't aknowledge Garrosh or Sylvanas as legitimate warchiefs, on the basis that the only reason either of them ever held the title was so Blizzard could push their drama agenda by having them do stupid shit from start to finish.

[geco]

There are no mountain's at teldrassil the tree goes all the way to the water.

The night elf's at the point has already gone off on there own without support from the rest of the alliance other then the wolfs. There's no reason to think the other alliance members would go against there own interest to support them when they didn't during the rest of the war.

The dwarf's or atleast moria I believe say they want the war to end. and that it's pointless.

The catapult does not hit the base of Teldrassil, it hits the top of the tree.
(If it were at the base, it would be more difficult for them not to turn it off being winged from the water.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpvRrlYp7tA

The rest of the Alliance did nothing for most of the war but obey Anduin's orders. Likewise, no one said anything about abandoning the Kaldorei because in this senseless lore they are supposed to be at peace even though Tyrande did not sign the peace and therefore they are still at war.

The alternative is literal genocide, and that didn't even work out for the Horde destroying the Draenei since they ended up coming back into the story in full force and part of 'the enemy'.

BFA put us in a state where if the Alliance doesn't make a Horde genocide the Horde will make an Alliance one.